Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

The mixed convoy includes at least three T-72B1 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) but it is the appearance of a lone, more modern T-72 variant (shown below) that is of particular significance.

It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

Mr Dempsey notes that "the Soviet-era tanks operated by the separatists have until now represented those that could have been potentially acquired internally within Ukraine, providing a degree of plausible deniability to any suspected third-party supplier."

The most recent separatist MBT variant observed, however, is assessed to have been operated only by the Russian Army," he adds.

Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

So up until now it seems Russia has supplied the Rebels with older tanks, where they can maintain plausible deniability.

Now, more modern tanks that Ukraine never had access to, and can only come from Russia, are being seen operated by "Rebels". It is clear the Russian denials are drawing close to an end.

The question, is whether the people saying all along Russia was not doing this will own up and admit Russia has gone too far, or simply change goal posts and claim it doesn't matter.

Russia is caught red handed ... or green handed perhaps.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Dear OccamsRazor04,

Someone will say, "But it really wasn't in Ukraine," or "The picture was faked," or "They got lost," or "It was stolen with some other vehicles from a Russian base."

I wish ATSers would accept as many excuses for America as they do for Russia or Jihadis. We, with the exception of a few very fanatic Russian supporters, know Russia has invaded Ukraine by taking Crimea and moving into Eastern Ukraine. The question is will we do anything about it?

My guess is that Obama will spend several weeks doing more "fact-finding" and planning, then he'll ask the Europeans if they feel like doing anything, then he might add more sanctions. The Russians by then will have taken all the land they want for now, and agree to stop invading in exchange for who knows what. They will also, just before the elections, tell the world what great diplomats are currently in the White House.

Russian supporters here seem to have had no other goal than to sow doubt, confusion, and pick up a crumb or two of support for the insupportable.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

They are welcome to say it. But it's a convoy of Rebel units with Rebel flags.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

Shooting holes big enough to drive tanks through that in here:

In Ukraine, T-72s are being replaced by the T-80 and T-84 MBTs. The T-72 has been exported and produced in many countries.

Link

a reply to: charles1952

Russian supporters here seem to have had no other goal than to sow doubt, confusion, and pick up a crumb or two of support for the insupportable.

Hi Charles,

I'd say if these tanks are as described (I'm no tank expert) then it's obvious the separatists have been supplied by the Russians. To my thinking though it doesn't matter except for the people who get caught in the crossfire.

These global tug of wars will never stop, this one just happens to be on Russia's doorstep so I can understand their concern especially with Kiev clamoring to join NATO. I remember watching the TV back when the Russians tried to put missiles in Cuba, we very nearly went to war over it. Seems the same here only the other way around.

While I've been accused of being pro-Russian or anti West/American many times on ATS it frankly isn't so. In this case I simply look back at who is ultimately responsible for this whole mess and unfortunately looking at all the data I've seen it's the west.. again.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

Shooting holes big enough to drive tanks through that in here:

In Ukraine, T-72s are being replaced by the T-80 and T-84 MBTs. The T-72 has been exported and produced in many countries.

Link

Seems to be an issue of reading comprehension.

The mixed convoy includes at least three T-72B1 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) but it is the appearance of a lone, more modern T-72 variant that is of particular significance.
This variant, distinguished by the prominent Kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) arrangement - the boxes on the turret front - is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM.
It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

So while the Ukraine operates older T-72B1's, as your newly read wiki-education has taught you, the T-72BM is not operated by anyone other than the Russian Army. Glad to help.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

Shooting holes big enough to drive tanks through that in here:

In Ukraine, T-72s are being replaced by the T-80 and T-84 MBTs. The T-72 has been exported and produced in many countries.

Link

Awesome job at not reading either the source material OR the OP.

The mixed convoy includes at least three T-72B1 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) but it is the appearance of a lone, more modern T-72 variant (shown below) that is of particular significance.

is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM.

The tank in question is a T-72BM. Can you show me where that is exported to? Your source you just provided says Russia is the only nation that has it, and it's never been exported. Thanks for providing a source that backs up my OP 100%.

a reply to: intrptr

Unfortunately, you missed the part in the BBC article that said this:

This variant, distinguished by the prominent Kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) arrangement - the boxes on the turret front - is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM.

It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.

The T-72 may be all over, but the BBC is saying this particular variant is strictly Russian armor.

Who cares, the US started this whole mess and anyone who can remember only a few months in the past can recall the US ambassador in the Ukraine who drew anger for saying "_(expletive)_ the EU." That recording was introduced to the public by.... Russia. And it was a legit recording that the ambassador apologized for. Oh yeah, and they were talking about manipulating the Ukranian government. US official. Obviously illegal.


If all you listen to is western coverage of what's going on there then you'll know even less than someone who's never even heard of Ukraine.


The factions coming out of western Ukraine are fascists. They were Nazi supporters. The people in eastern Ukraine (and I talk to a girl who lives there) don't like these people, want to be left alone, and feel as though the US is involved in all of this whole mess (which OBVIOUSLY it is considering what our ambassador was caught saying!!!). We were moving extra planes to eastern Europe for NATO to use before Ukraine even broke out into civil unrest.


This thread is just more next level bull#, provided by the western mainstream media.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: charles1952

Russian supporters here seem to have had no other goal than to sow doubt, confusion, and pick up a crumb or two of support for the insupportable.

Hi Charles,

I'd say if these tanks are as described (I'm no tank expert) then it's obvious the separatists have been supplied by the Russians. To my thinking though it doesn't matter except for the people who get caught in the crossfire.

These global tug of wars will never stop, this one just happens to be on Russia's doorstep so I can understand their concern especially with Kiev clamoring to join NATO. I remember watching the TV back when the Russians tried to put missiles in Cuba, we very nearly went to war over it. Seems the same here only the other way around.

While I've been accused of being pro-Russian or anti West/American many times on ATS it frankly isn't so. In this case I simply look back at who is ultimately responsible for this whole mess and unfortunately looking at all the data I've seen it's the west.. again.

The difference being we are not trying to give Kiev nukes aimed at Moscow. If you can show otherwise I will retract that.

a reply to: BridgebyaFountain

And the goalpost changing begins. First it's deny the source and say it's not true. Then when that doesn't work jump to who cares the West is to blame.

Thanks for validating my OP prediction.

Proof of the US manipulating Ukraine's government before this whole mess even started:

dailybeast

Nuland told Pyatt she had discussed the plan with U.N. Undersecretary for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman, a former senior U.S. Department official, and that he would appoint a U.N. representative to help move it forward. Vice President Joe Biden would also be brought into the plan at the right time, according to Nuland.

“That would be great to help glue this thing and to have the U.N. help glue it,” she said. “And you know, f___ the EU.”

“I think we’re in play,” Pyatt tells Nuland about a plan to join the opposition and government into one unit, apparently being attempted by the U.S. government behind the scenes. The tape may have been referring to a late January power sharing deal that has since been rejected by opposition leaders. After Pyatt worries that there are “troubles in the marriage” inside the Ukrainian opposition, Nuland warns Pyatt against the idea of appointing Klitschko to be deputy prime minister and suggests the former boxer should stay out of any new Ukrainian government.

(Do a Google search for that text because the URL has a cuss word in it and ATS blocks it. Also blocks tinyurl.com apparently.)


This is from earlier this year. 2014. It was even in our own mainstream media. Are you Russia-haters that forgetful on purpose or you just have severe memory lapses?

If Russia came over here and started screwing around with Canadian politics, manipulating their government, and got caught doing it... That's kind of like what we got caught doing over there, except even worse, because Ukraine is arguably more important to Russian trade (access to Europe, food production, etc.) than Canada is to American trade.

QWell guys, if the BBC says so… then it must be true.

Notwithstanding that all the tanks in Ukraine are of Russian manufacture.

Shivers, the Russian Loch Ness monster.

Pffft…

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
And the goalpost changing begins. First it's deny the source and say it's not true.

Who the hell are you talking about.

You can't even distinguish two different people. You take everyone and pretend they're all one person and then criticize them for not being consistent.

Talk about next level bull#....

originally posted by: intrptr
QWell guys, if the BBC says so… then it must be true.

Notwithstanding that all the tanks in Ukraine are of Russian manufacture.

Shivers, the Russian Loch Ness monster.

Pffft…

No, YOUR source says it.

Russia – 800-1000 Т-72BA with KONTAKT-5, 300 T-72BM "Rogatka", 3000 T-72B with KONTAKT-1 (being upgraded to the level of T-72BM "Rogatka"), 1000 T-72 other modifications (being upgraded to the level of T-72BM "Rogatka"), 4000 in reserve[21]

They are the ONLY country listed with this tank. Who cares where their tanks were manufactured? They could have only F-16's manufactured in America. The moment you see them flying F-22's you would say America supplied them .. and you'd be right. EXACT same situation. You just got hammered for your ignorance and refuse to admit it.

First: I think Russia and any other nation should leave Ukraine to its own devices.
Second: I myself have stated Russia is probably providing some type of support, but that it is very hard to prove absent actual unsanatized pictures with timestamp and geolocation data...or equipment that is strictly no exported.
Third: Even if Russia is providing equipment, or even forces, to the rebels, it is actually no different than what we, the U.S. does...but that does not make it right either.

Lastly, Ukraine does have Konstakt-5 ERA on some of its tanks...
it could be T-72AG that had A full upgrade to the local T-80UD standard, with the 6TD-1 diesel, Kontakt-5 ERA, FCS andh TKN-4S/1G46 sights plus the T-80 main gun. The AMG is a downgraded version with the original engine.

Pic from BBC


Pic of Ukrainian T-72AG with Kontakt-5 ERA

What cracks me up is the promotion that Russian hardware in Ukraine is proof of Russian invasion there.

All the Ukraines military hardware is of Russian origin. Thats all that proves.

But go head on, you need to prove Putin is the Evil Emperor, the latest in a long distinguished line of "Must Go's".

a reply to: BridgebyaFountain

I can. I never said you made the initial comments.

The question, is whether the people saying all along Russia was not doing this will own up and admit Russia has gone too far, or simply change goal posts and claim it doesn't matter.

So first we had more of the "Russia isn't doing this" ... then you came in after that theory was torn to pieces .. and we had the "it doesn't matter" response.

Prediction: Accurate

originally posted by: AllSourceIntel
First: I think Russia and any other nation should leave Ukraine to its own devices.
Second: I myself have stated Russia is probably providing some type of support, but that it is very hard to prove absent actual unsanatized pictures with timestamp and geolocation data...or equipment that is strictly no exported.
Third: Even if Russia is providing equipment, or even forces, to the rebels, it is actually no different than what we, the U.S. does...but that does not make it right either.

Lastly, Ukraine does have Konstakt-5 ERA on some of its tanks...
it could be T-72AG that had A full upgrade to the local T-80UD standard, with the 6TD-1 diesel, Kontakt-5 ERA, FCS andh TKN-4S/1G46 sights plus the T-80 main gun. The AMG is a downgraded version with the original engine.

Pic from BBC

Pic of Ukrainian T-72AG with Kontakt-5 ERA

Those are not the same tanks. The one in the first pic is definitely not the same tank as in the 2nd picture.