Why is it you are more likely to dismiss evolution If you are an American?.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
originally posted by: Prezbo369
I don't think the demographics will play out as people think they will. They rarely do.

Yes demographics do tend to be large sweeping generalisations...

But still, this bears out my original thought: demographics suggest that SOME parts of Europe will be largely Muslim in 50-60 years.

So you've gone from many to SOME?....yes i'm sure that in SOME areas on in the european continent muslims will outnumber other ethnic groups, just like i'm sure that over the next X number of years whites will outnumber muslims in SOME areas too......lol wth

If you can find fault with the study, please let me know so I can either find a better source or stop using the claim. Thanks!

Study?.....oh you mean the one merely mentioned in the Telegraph journalist article but not sourced or cited? The apparent study taken out in 2006 by a person whose day job is Dean of Distance Learning at Air War College?......lol

No.

Two percent of American scientists in the United States is a lot of scientists. (And those are just the YECers) If it say we have a lot of murderers in the United States (we do) you'd believe me, right? But they're a fraction of the population.

Still, I'm glad you cited numbers. You are certainly correct that it is a statistically small percentage of scientists.

You implied that the US 'had a lot of scientists here that don't believe in evolution, so perhaps people are more open to skepticism because of the divergence of opinion' and I showed you that they make up only 2% of the entire scientific community in the US. How on earth could just 2% of scientists influence and create such a 'divergence of opinion'?....

And why don't you believe me? A lot of Americans are ever-so-slightly Native American.

Pretendians? don't tell me....you're a Cherokee princess right?

And which holocaust? A lot of the natives died of natural causes. Some of the tribes were systemically destroyed or "moved for their own safety." (Trail of Tears.)
Personally, I think some of those stack up pretty high on the list of what America did wrong.
I wasn't there at the time. Can't do anything about it.

Yes you sound like you're in touch with your ancestry........

en.wikipedia.org...

Attempting to make excuses for the 'bedrock' your country was founded upon is pretty disgusting and completely transparent.

Which claim? That most atheists believe in evolution? I used logic for that one. If that's wrong, please let me know! I don't have any stats on that.

Lol right logic is good enough for you, but not for me, gotcha.......

In my experience, evolution in the US is sometimes seen as pushing atheism, which is by-and-large rejected by Americans. So the rejection of atheism leads to a rejection of evolution, since they're seen as going hand-in-hand.

Anyone with an education would be able to realise that the two are not linked and do not 'push' one another.

Do you have stats of other religious countries (like the Muslim countries) to back up your claim? Thanks!

Lol yeah of course you'd want to be compared to the worst examples right? so the US doesn't look quite as bad......how about compared to the many many religious western countries?

Hmm. The US of A is generally acknowledged to have really sucky education (at least in some schools), yes. But there are educated people in the States who do not believe in evolution. And there are a lot of educated people who downright attack it.

These are the same folk that still tell everyone that they can that evolution is 'just a theory'.....

It's possible you are right, and education is the decisive factor. Hopefully you made a post to the OP.
I suspect that philosophical trends in the United States that reject atheism and view evolution as atheism's handmaid may have played a role (we may have sucky education, but as far as I know it doesn't reject the theory of evolution–at least across the board in public schools.)

Handmaiden? your choice of words constantly betrays your superficially neutral position.

Perhaps in Europe atheism and evolution are not seen as linked together in that way. Remember, here we have the Republican-Evangelical Complex aggressively promoting an alternate viewpoint.

I'll agree that the conservative republican factor has a lot to do with the dumbing down of education in the US.

So, in the US, while the quality of education may be lame, if they're being taught the theory, why are they rejecting it? Or are those rejecting it all outside of the public school system? Do you have data on that?

Seems many put their faith and their religion before their education.

Or perhaps I just use "few" in a non-technical sense.

You know, a few posters (two) a few coconuts (four) a few examples (three.) You're correct, though, I should have been more accurate and more specific.

A 'few' has never meant two. A few is more than a couple, more than a deuce etc etc

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
a reply to: boymonkey74

perhaps people are more open to skepticism because of the divergence of opinion. In America we root for the underdog, question authority, and generally are rabble-rousers.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I am sure there are many non-believers of evolution who are not or do not base their opinions off of religion. Many people just distrust anything they cannot see first hand. I also think dissenting opinions are good and that is how we learn.

all scientists dont believe in evolution even the ones who are doing research in support of evolution(doing it for money fame or power). 99% of earth humans believe in god

a reply to: Prezbo369

Quotes will be the death of me, so I'll try to summarize. Let me know if I miss something

You've got a good point about the demographics being a proportional thing, but I would like to see some evidence for your assertion which was, IIRC, that Muslims are reproducing at the same rates as other Europeans. As I mentioned to another poster, though, it looks like belief in evolution is rising in Muslim countries (corresponding with education, most likely, which speaks well of your belief.) if that trend continues in Europe, it would make my point moot. I still suspect that there were philosophical drivers at work, but that's hard to quantify. (This doesn't mean that there is NOT a link between education and a belief in evolution, BTW. I simply suspect the divergence between the American and European mindset, if you will, contributed to the condition the OP is curious about.) Speaking of statistics, perhaps you'd prefer to compare the US to Spain? Or do you have a better suggestion?

Am I a Cherokee princess? LOL no. Sounds fun tho! I don't believe in "whitewashing" history, just understanding its nuances.

Logic is good enough for everyone

Now, you asked how the 2% create a divergence of opinion; first, please remember that 2% is a number *I* brought up; that number is of YECers, IIRC, not all evolution skeptics. Secondly, as I mentioned before, the Republican-Evangelical Complex provides a soapbox and a megaphone for them. Finally, please remember these people (the scientists) are educated; educated people have differences of opinion on evolution.

As for my position, I don't mind discussing my personal beliefs on evolution and such. But that can be distracting, can't it? Better for everyone to focus on attacking my arguments, not me. (And you ATSers have done a splendid job of that, BTW!)

As far as "few" goes, I tend to use it casually in a non-specific manner. Perhaps it is an American thing. I apologize for being incorrect.

Finally, please remember that "education," as you speak of it, is not merely taught in the classroom. ("School of hard knocks, eh?") Perhaps people that choose to pursue religion may simply be learning a different subject

originally posted by: Harvin

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
a reply to: boymonkey74

perhaps people are more open to skepticism because of the divergence of opinion. In America we root for the underdog, question authority, and generally are rabble-rousers.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I am sure there are many non-believers of evolution who are not or do not base their opinions off of religion. Many people just distrust anything they cannot see first hand. I also think dissenting opinions are good and that is how we learn.

I agree that dissenting opinions are how we learn.
I wish that both sides of the evolution debate would embrace this idea

originally posted by: robbeh
I cant fathom the idea we just appeared one day the bible is an idiotic book and those who believe in it are just as bad evolution may not be proven 100% but people seriously need to use there head sometimes when reading such silly books they believe to be real .....

Can you explain the Cambrian explosion? Many, many life forms appeared in that time period that were not related to the prior time period so they did just appear out of nowhere.

a reply to: guitarplayer

The cambrian is a period of about 56 million years. The idea that it is 'sudden' is one that is over-egged just a little bit by creationists.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Yes and the earth is what 4 billion? How many mutations does it take to produce a human if we began as a single cell organism apearing on the first day of earths history?

a reply to: JiggyPotamus

excellent post.

what gets me is that most people are either or.

God forbid one should question the fundy's on either side!

and if one says they believe in creation, they are lumped into the young earther box without blinking.

it's so obvious here on ATS.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Yes and the earth is what 4 billion? How many mutations does it take to produce a human if we began as a single cell organism apearing on the first day of earths history?

Quite a lot I would think, but as you say 4 billion years is long time.

You're trying to make some appeal to blind chance and insurmountable odds and that kind of thing, but you accept that nature had a good 4 billion years to play with so what's the problem? If you have eons and eons of time then the law of large numbers takes over - rare events become certainties in the statistical ocean of it all.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: borntowatch

The good thing is education is helping people turn away from creationism.
You can teach what you like in a religious study class but to teach it on any science class is wrong.
Faith has no evidence. ..science does.
Oh and go cry me a river poor poor christians lol give me a break.

science teaching creation is wrong, is just as bad.

besides, it's their money supporting everything in gov.

who decides what to teach with my money?

put in a religious studies class in all schools, along side of science classes.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

originally posted by: guitarplayer
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Yes and the earth is what 4 billion? How many mutations does it take to produce a human if we began as a single cell organism apearing on the first day of earths history?

Quite a lot I would think, but as you say 4 billion years is long time.

You're trying to make some appeal to blind chance and insurmountable odds and that kind of thing, but you accept that nature had a good 4 billion years to play with so what's the problem? If you have eons and eons of time then the law of large numbers takes over - rare events become certainties in the statistical ocean of it all.

don't forget to throw in the chixalube event.

seems like it didn't take long after that to whip up a human.

a reply to: tsingtao

Mass extinctions can actually serve to promote accelerated evolution (see punctuated equilibrium).

It's a bit like when you brush-clear part of a thick forest. Suddenly there is a flurry of vegetative development in an effort to try and reclaim the vacuum.

With all sorts of ecological neiche's suddenly free, there is more opportunities for newly evolved species than would normally be the case.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

originally posted by: guitarplayer
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

Yes and the earth is what 4 billion? How many mutations does it take to produce a human if we began as a single cell organism apearing on the first day of earths history?

Quite a lot I would think, but as you say 4 billion years is long time.

You're trying to make some appeal to blind chance and insurmountable odds and that kind of thing, but you accept that nature had a good 4 billion years to play with so what's the problem? If you have eons and eons of time then the law of large numbers takes over - rare events become certainties in the statistical ocean of it all.

The problem is that in order to fit into the 4 billion years a single cell would need to mutate 34 times each day to create the 50 trillion cells in the human body. An unborn human would need to mutate 9,996 times in the womb alone there is not enough time for humans to appear out of random chance in 4 billion years. And we have not even discussed where the DNA information came from to produce that first cell.

a reply to: guitarplayer

Which christian propaganda site told you that?

In the past 20 years of so, there have been a number of things that I refer to as articles of faith that have cropped up in the conservative religions here in the US.

I was raised if a very strict church yet we were never taught that science was bad or that evolution did not exist. Yet young people today growing up in the same church are expected to deny evolution, to believe that the earth is only 6,000 to 8,000 years old and that being a scientist is essentially believing that God does not exist.

We have entered an era when churches have gone beyond what is reasonable in their teachings. The old testament is essentially the oral history of the Jewish people. The new testament seems like an entirely different religion. Yet some Christians insist on picking and choosing certain sections of the old testament and saying that if you don''t believe them, you will end up in Hades. However, those same Christians do not practice the dietary restrictions in Leviticus

My point is that science is not bad. If there are God given laws about the Universe, it is not a sin to discover them. If fact it should reassure Christians about their beliefs. I don't think that science and religion should be at odds with each other. Unless, we sail off the edge of the flat earth.

originally posted by: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
a reply to: tsingtao

Mass extinctions can actually serve to promote accelerated evolution (see punctuated equilibrium).

It's a bit like when you brush-clear part of a thick forest. Suddenly there is a flurry of vegetative development in an effort to try and reclaim the vacuum.

With all sorts of ecological neiche's suddenly free, there is more opportunities for newly evolved species than would normally be the case.

yeah and they always end up with humans! yay!

what if chixalube happened 19 mil ya?

or 190 mya? or next week?

are you saying humans are inevitable in evolution on earth?

a reply to: Wildbob77

That was a sage and balanced post, Wildbob.

I was raised if a very strict church yet we were never taught that science was bad or that evolution did not exist. Yet young people today growing up in the same church are expected to deny evolution, to believe that the earth is only 6,000 to 8,000 years old and that being a scientist is essentially believing that God does not exist.

I found this very interesting. I am not American, so I had no idea that some churches in America are becoming more hardline on creationist doctrine. Looked at in the context of America's culture wars today, though, it makes a lot of sense.

I'd love to hear you talk about this some more. I started a thread about a fortnight ago, which has seen daily activity ever since. The thread asks whether creationism — the movement, not the complex of beliefs — is dead or dying. I think what you have to say on the subject of the churches' changing stance on evolution would be very relevant to it.

Come on over and take a look: www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: boymonkey74

I believe it's because the US harbors the biggest group of Christian fundamentalists in the world, and the moderate rational Christians in positions of power and influence refuse to speak out against them for fear of losing votes. This is also why there will never be a non Christian president of the US (well not for 50 years at least). They teach absolute literal 100% believe in a storybook and a large portion home school their children to avoid the evil sciences. They also tend to have a lot of children and keep spreading this ignorance down generation by generation. It's sickening to think about, because these people refuse to accept anything at all in life other than the bible and many are so desperate to gain a foothold for their faith that they make up unsubstantiated claims and lies to attack evolution over. Then they get involved in politics and try to have laws established to force others to comply with their belief system as if it's the only one out there. In general the southern US is night and day compared with the north. If you strike up a conversation with somebody and tell them you don't believe in Jesus, they look at you like they've seen a ghost, as if they don't understand how it could be possible. It's because they've had it pounded into their heads since birth, psychologically damaging their critical thinking skills and scrutiny levels.

originally posted by: tsingtao
yeah and they always end up with humans! yay!

what if chixalube happened 19 mil ya?

or 190 mya? or next week?

are you saying humans are inevitable in evolution on earth?

Given enough time and many mass extinctions, all possible evolutions are inevitable on earth. However given the size of earth and the sheer magnitude of mutations that could theoretically be possible, that would probably be longer than the lifespan of the planet. Though if you expand the applicable area to the entire universe, then maybe that statement would be more believable.

Also, if it evolved on this planet in the past, there is a chance that it will evolve somewhere else in the universe.