Voter I.D. Law in North Carolina Stands !

a reply to: xuenchen

One rabid unknown blogger posting unsubstantiated garbage is all you've got?

Getting desperate I see.

Let's take a look at the actual facts of the matter, shall we? (Source: Southern Studies Institute)

The cross-check of North Carolina voters was conducted by the office of Kris Kobach, the controversial Secretary of State in Kansas. A long-time Republican political operative, Kobach is known nationally as the architect of legislation cracking down on immigrants in Arizona and elsewhere, as well as severe voting restrictions.

Wait, you mean, the North Carolina Elections Board didn't even carry out "the study" themselves? They gave a data dump of their raw records to someone who ... did some kind of analysis on it? But surely that's a non-partisan group right? Right?

Wrong.

Across the country, the pattern is the same: A (usually Republican-led) state joins Kobach's program, runs a check and announces large numbers of potential voting irregularities. But when it comes to proving actual fraud, the claims are quickly undermined.

After using cross-check in Ohio, Republican Secretary of State John Husted announced, "This report demonstrates that voter fraud does exist." But out of "hundreds" of potential instances of double-voting, as of last October the state had referred only 20 cases to law enforcement -- and none had resulted in charges.

Only 20 cases referred to law enforcement with no charges filed? Hmmm. That doesn't seem like a very good success rate.

Well, what does Mr. Kobach have to say about this situation?

Experience in the crosscheck program indicates that a significant number of apparent double votes are false positives and not double votes. Many are the result of errors voters sign the wrong line in the poll book, election clerks scan the wrong line with a barcode scanner, or there is confusion over the father/son voters (Sr. and Jr.).

False positives ... so ... the creator and sponsor of the "Crosscheck" program admits that his system produces junk data? Then why would any state like North Carolina adopt such flawed material?

Oh that's right ... the Republicans in NC are trying to pass one of the most restrictive voter/election reform plans in the nation.

What have other states using this flawed data discovered?

... in early 2013 Colorado did Kobach's cross-check, and Secretary of State Scott Gessler announced it had identified 17 cases of alleged fraud, which were submitted to the Boulder County District Attorney’s office. But in July 2013, the D.A. dismissed all of the cases, saying none involved actual fraud and they were "politically motivated."

But KANSAS ... surely good ol' conservative KANSAS is going after these thousands, well, hundreds, well, wait how many were there again?

In another PowerPoint [pdf] by Kobach's office boosting the Interstate Crosscheck, a slide highlights the program's alleged "Success in Kansas." But the data points only to 14 cases "referred for prosecution" out of millions of voter records analyzed, and doesn't confirm any where charges where actually raised, much less a voter convicted.

~~~~~~~

Does anyone really think for even a second that if this were generating THOUSANDS of real cases of voter fraud instead of FALSE POSITIVES these heavily Republican states wouldn't be pursuing these alleged double voters like bloodhounds?

More politically polarizing BS information, Foxy. You really never get tired of this do you? You pursue this harder than most people work at their actual jobs.

Wait a minute ... proven voter fraud in North Carolina ... that's ringing a bell ... what was it, there WAS an actual case of convicted voter fraud in NC a few years ago, wasn't there?

CBS News - NC Congressman's Aide Convicted of Voter Fraud

The CBS News Investigative Unit has learned a man who was a field coordinator in Congressman Patrick McHenry's (R-NC) 2004 campaign has been indicted for voter fraud in North Carolina.

The indictment charges that Michael Aaron Lay, 26, illegally cast his ballot in two 2004 Congressional primary run-offs in which McHenry was a candidate. The charges indicate that Lay voted in a district where it was not legal for him to vote.

At the time Lay was listed as a resident in a home owned by 32-year-old McHenry but campaign records indicate Lay's paychecks were sent to an address in Tennessee. McHenry won the primary by only 86 votes. According to Gaston County, North Carolina District Attorney Locke Bell, Lay was indicted on Monday, May 7 by a local grand jury.

I'll be darned. So one of the only persons actually convicted of actual voter fraud (6 or so votes) was a Republican working for one of the Republican House Representatives?

Imagine that.

Oh, wait ... I forgot ...


:

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

yes, but they can't get one free.

Which makes this a poll tax.

originally posted by: HauntWok
yes, but they can't get one free.
Which makes this a poll tax.

The identification in North Carolina is free.

Beginning in 2014, North Carolina voters who do not already have an acceptable ID can get one for free from the DMV. Source

a reply to: xuenchen

Just cuz the facts matter...

this was a district level Fed Judge..

this was a request for a "stay" to prevent the implementation of the law before the November elections.

the judge denied the "stay", but the actual trial is scheduled for next year...

the same judge also threw out a motion to dismiss the case by the state of NC, so he see's the case as valid, the plaintiffs just failed to demonstrate that it warranted a "stay"...or as the judge put it..
""In the absence of the clear showing for preliminary relief required by the law, it is inappropriate for a federal court to enjoin a state law passed by duly-elected representatives,"

So the law "stands" for now, but there are two other similar cases in NC and even this case hasn't gone to trial yet.

Also...Please show me where it was the Justice Department? while Holder and DOJ have weighed in heavily on the case, my impression was these cases are brought by the League of Women Voters, NAACP and other groups?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: HauntWok
yes, but they can't get one free.
Which makes this a poll tax.

The identification in North Carolina is free.

Beginning in 2014, North Carolina voters who do not already have an acceptable ID can get one for free from the DMV. Source

so what happens to the vote of the old people that do not have a valid birth certificate, but have voted in many past elections? or to students that are from another state, but go to college in North Carolina?...or people that moved from another state to take a job in North Carolina?...will the state of North Carolina set up free transportation for those unable to get to a DMV to get their ID?

edit on 11-8-2014 by jimmyx because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
How about this...if it is so difficult for a black person to get or have an ID, then does that mean most black people are driving without a license? Which is breaking the law?

Give it up, you've been caught Progs. One of your weapons in winning elections may soon disappear. And that was the ONLY reason you wanted a simple thing like identification to vote. You've again proven what I know...you will lie, cheat and steal to get your way. No law or constitution will stand in your way.

Of course, it's the Chicago way.



I can't see why anyone would be against this. Every time someone votes more than once or illegally, they disenfranchise a fellow citizen The only reason for such strident objections I can see is that they know the get a lot of their votes this way. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

It's a reasonable and fair requirement. But the Democrats know that it hurts their "get out the vote" process, where they round up thousands of ghetto dwellers and bus them to the polls on election day. Is it really any different than saying you have to REGISTER to vote? No. I've seen a lot of feedback from black people on this issue that goes like this: "But I don't know anyone who doesn't have an I.D. , so what difference doesn't it make". And of course, they're right, because every responsible person in America has an I.D. But when the Democratic Party bus sweeps through the ghetto, and pays everyone $5 to hop on and go vote, they're going to lose out on those who were too indifferent to get an I.D., and that's why they always fight it. But it does prevent voter fraud, so I support it. That said, I agree with gryphon66, that there has to be a free voter I.D., because there are people who have no money at all, and they have a right to vote too.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: HauntWok
yes, but they can't get one free.
Which makes this a poll tax.

The identification in North Carolina is free.

Beginning in 2014, North Carolina voters who do not already have an acceptable ID can get one for free from the DMV. Source

so what happens to the vote of the old people that do not have a valid birth certificate, but have voted in many past elections? or to students that are from another state, but go to college in North Carolina?...or people that moved from another state to take a job in North Carolina?...will the state of North Carolina set up free transportation for those unable to get to a DMV to get their ID?

Students are supposed to vote absentee in their home jurisdiction. One problem that this seeks to address is that of students voting twice--once at school and once via absentee ballot at home.

Why wouldn't old people be able to get an ID? If they collect SS, they are readily identifiable and most likely already have an ID, but should be easy to get one. It is illegal for me to accept a Medicare card without seeing a valid photo ID to confirm the identity of the card holder to prevent Medicare fraud--same for Medicaid. These "old people" without an ID you mention are very unlikely.

When you move to a new state, you are required to get an in state driver's license within 90 days of establishing residency.

If you are out of your home state for a job, then you can vote in your home state by absentee ballot.

These concerns are really not founded.

edit on 11-8-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: Parthin
It's a reasonable and fair requirement. But the Democrats know that it hurts their "get out the vote" process, where they round up thousands of ghetto dwellers and bus them to the polls on election day. Is it really any different than saying you have to REGISTER to vote? No. I've seen a lot of feedback from black people on this issue that goes like this: "But I don't know anyone who doesn't have an I.D. , so what difference doesn't it make". And of course, they're right, because every responsible person in America has an I.D. But when the Democratic Party bus sweeps through the ghetto, and pays everyone $5 to hop on and go vote, they're going to lose out on those who were too indifferent to get an I.D., and that's why they always fight it. But it does prevent voter fraud, so I support it. That said, I agree with gryphon66, that there has to be a free voter I.D., because there are people who have no money at all, and they have a right to vote too.

This. This exactly. It will hurt the "community organizers."

See here for full ruling...

Apparently one of the requirements to put a "stay" in place to hold a laws implementation is an "an “injury in fact,” vs hypothetical injury about to happen.

The Plaintiff's attempted to argue since the new law forbids the registration of young voters who are 16 or 17 years old (but will be 18 at the time of voting)...that they were being injured "now" by being unable to register them. But of course they lacked "standing" since they themselves weren't the 16 or 17 year olds missing out on early registration..

At the end of the day....reading this, this was a technical ruling on a temporary "stay" and not an opinion on the merits of the case which goes to trial in July 2015.

Makes for good right wing headlines though

www.scribd.com...

There are too many child-support-skippers, tax evaders, and people "laying low" so to speak. They exist in the shadows and make their living under the table, cheating and scamming the government, stealing, etc., and that's the way they want to keep it.

If they had to show an I.D. to vote, they become traceable and if they think they can be traced, they won't go vote for the next hand-out prez.

Yes, yes, despite the all the facts that have been repeatedly provided here, despite more than a decade of desperate Republican searching for the "massive voter fraud" these solutions are supposed to fix, five years of that done by the GW Bush Justice Department, the ACTUAL numbers of in-person voter fraud are, time and time again, investigation after investigation, nominal and statistically insignificant ... but that doesn't matter, because it's such a good story for wingnuts to trumpet ...

... then again facts have never stopped anyone on the rabid right from their beliefs, eh?

Like the fact that most cases of tried and convicted in-person voter fraud have conducted by REPUBLICANS ...

No, just continue to make comments implying that all Democratic votes are African Americans votes and are thus invalid votes (because, you know, Democrats "bus them in from the ghetto and pay them $5 a piece" ... got any credible references for that gem? No, didn't think so.)

Or that all Democratic votes are made by illegal immigrants, or professional criminals, ... anything to continue the illusion that Democrats, liberals, left-leaning moderates are all liars, cheats, or idiots and all Republicans are the only real Americans, god-fearing and big business-loving ...

You guys are so transparent. And you wonder why charges of racism always come up in this context? Look up. Read the comments made above.

Even so, I know you won't see it, because you don't consider outright implications or hell, direct accusations that all African Americans who vote Democrat are dishonest and would sell their votes to be anything other than ... well, obvious to you. Everyone knows it happens, right? Amirite?

Just like the suggestion that folks "sell their Obama phones to pay for the Voter ID" was just a logical, reasonable assertion.

It'd be durned funny if it weren't so utterly sad.

Because of my thought-process and participation in another thread here at ATS, I want to make a few provisos here very plain in terms of the claims I'm making.

1. As surely as there is in this country a "rabid right" there is also a "looney left" and both are merely emotion-ridden phrases for extremism. And we can call the extremists anything we want to ... fascists, Nazis, communists, progressives (fist shake) ... but the fact is that the great majority of Americans, sans the 24/7 polarizing effects of the media barrage, I still believe are mostly moderate and prefer their politics like a menu ... little o' Column A little o'Column B.

2. There's nothing innately wrong or racist about requiring ID to vote, but tinkering with the voting and election process can and is being used to disenfranchise certain classes of voters. There is simply no evidence of the massive voter fraud that is serving as the impetus for implementing "reforms" that are clearly designed to favor one political group over the other.

3. Can someone start the Common Sense and Rationality Party? I'd like to join that one.

a reply to: Gryphon66
Sorry about no links but this was in the '90s, long before our local newspapers went online. I just googled it and found no references to the name or indictment. No national notice that I recall for a small town clerk being indicted for stealing less than a million dollars. As I said, the indictment didn't concern the voter/election issue at all, it addressed other corruption in form of the clerk depositing money collected as taxes and fees into a personal account instead of the official clerk's account.
The voter fraud got no attention in the newspaper because we could not "prove" it beyond showing the reporter the information we had. That's not enough for a young reporter, nervous about offending the powerful in a small town to write a story. This "good ole boys" club was pretty powerful at one time but word of mouth and showing people the actual records of where their dead relatives appeared to vote was powerful as well.

a reply to: jimmyx

I would reply in detail but NavyDoc answered your manufactured concerns quite well.

The concerns about the number of folks disenfranchised, while unimportant to some here, are exponentially more valid and numerous than the virtually non-existent incidences of voter fraud, which all you tighty-righties are all over 24/7.

We've established that, on the average in what we've discussed here, voter fraud (that is some one showing up in person to try to vote more than once, or for a dead person or ... whatever scenario (talk about MANUFACTURED) ... is statistically about 0.0003%. For direct example the supposed "cheating" in the Ohio 2012 Presidential election. 17 fraudulent votes out of 5.8 million or so, give or take.) This is with the Republican Ohio Secretary of State bringing the full power of his office to bear to try to scrape and find these supposed "fraudulent" votes.

Yet, some here dismiss out of hand without knowing or caring about the individual American citizens who are having their right to vote denied, delayed or diminished. There's no right to vote, you say? Here's someone that disagreed with you:

Several months ago in a speech, I said that voting was the most sacred right of free men and women. I pledged that as long as I am in a position to uphold the Constitution, no barrier would ever come between a secret ballot and the citizen's right to cast one. Today I am reaffirming that commitment.

For this Nation to remain true to its principles, we cannot allow any American's vote to be denied, diluted, or defiled. The right to vote is the crown jewel of American liberties, and we will not see its luster diminished.

President Ronald Reagan, lobbying for a 10 year extension of the Voting Rights Act, November 6, 1981


Just a few citations regarding the numbers of American citizens having their right to vote stripped away from them.

As Many as Five Million Voters Disenfranchised by Voter ID Laws (Study By Brennan Center for Justice)

Voter ID Laws Disenfranchise MILLIONS - US News and World Report

Voter ID Law Would Disenfranchise 700,000 Young People - CBS News

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

(WWPRS) What would President Reagan say?

Seems like everyone is against mandatory IDs until it's convenient for your political party. Next you'll need to to be chipped to vote and everyone here will cheer.

originally posted by: AlienUFOHunter
Seems like everyone is against mandatory IDs until it's convenient for your political party. Next you'll need to to be chipped to vote and everyone here will cheer.

Well said. The bigger issue I have with all this bickering is the following:

We are bickering about voter IDs and voter fraud, but we aren't doing jack s#!t about our rigged political system. I don't care how many dead or live people vote, the outcomes aren't going to change much. Rigged system is rigged!

a reply to: WCmutant

How is the system being rigged and by whom and for what purpose?

At what level, nationally, state, county, city, ...

You're talking about something you know to be true ... let the rest of us "bickerers" in on it.