Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

It's a bit difficult talking to certain folks who are so deep into their own view on how things really are... uhm, scratch that...

Instead, how's this wording... it's hard to exchange and explore new ideas with folks who are so positive about how things are.

In the heavily "religionated," that religion's story is told to them over and over by the people they love and trust, the first, and at times ONLY, people they were exposed to from the time they were babies.

How hard would YOU fight to keep from realizing that the things you built your whole world on were lies developed to take money from you and keep you doing what you were told, and that your loved ones were in the very same slave boat?

Religion is effective not only due to this repetition of information, but because of the assertion that if one even THINKS about questioning something that doesn't make sense, then this angry, unstable god will punish them.

I think the people who crawl out of such a mind trap are incredible, courageous human beings... and they don't often get enough credit for beating one of the most ingenious brainwashing techniques ever devised.

Personally, I've met a few loving, nonjudgmental, truly happy and kind people who consider themselves religious... and I myself have run into spiritual aspects of life that indicate some of the things religions assert might have some basis... but every great lie needs some truth to get the mind to go with it.

Love and treating others like you would like to be treated, along with the possibility of a greater reality and even a non-judgmental creator (if you have to, IF God exists as is presented, I doubt he'd be bothered by anyone using the brains he gave them) is all one needs... imo, of course.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Child abuse is growing up in the 60/70's and the "system" showing on TV how we'll be nuked to oblivion. Then you get older and find out the cold war was just a game, how its just another control mechanism. Keep us playing the game working for taxes in this slave system.

I wish you wouldn't use "Terrorism". Its lost its meaning since 911. Everyone who doesn't toe the line is a potential terrorist.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: beezzer
What are the solutions. . . . . . .

Education. Like this thread. Certainly not government control. People are free to teach their kids whatever they want, but just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. I honestly don't think many religious folks are even aware of the damage they're doing to their kids. If they were, perhaps they'd stop going to the churches they attend and find a more loving, inclusive group to congregate with. Religion can be taught with love. At home. There doesn't need to be all the guilt, fear and shame associated with modern religion.

If I had kids, I'd teach them love, integrity, honesty, compassion, etc. And I'm an atheist. These are all qualities that Jesus of the bible taught. People don't have to be involved in modern religion to teach their children these tenets.

We can't make people raise their children any differently, but we can work to educate them. I wouldn't be opposed to the government offering (not requiring) to educate parents on what effects religious indoctrination has, but then it's up to the parents to choose what to do. Once they have an education, they can make a free and educated choice.

I was screwed up for years because of the strict religious upbringing I had. Still am to a degree. It takes a lot of work to get over some of that crap.

One of those rare times that I actually agree with you.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

We can't make people raise their children any differently, but we can work to educate them. I wouldn't be opposed to the government offering (not requiring) to educate parents on what effects religious indoctrination has, but then it's up to the parents to choose what to do. Once they have an education, they can make a free and educated choice.

Aint gonna happen. The Govt will go on about heaven gaters or Jonestown cults (even though it was a CIA op). Lets see them be honest and remove clergymen from the armed forces. I have a problem with any ministers that give succour to the wounded or encouragement before an engagement in hostilities yet live the psychotic lie by not speaking up against war.

I once thought there was US and Them, then I educated myself...we are all human (slaves/sheep/cannon fodder). Those 1%'ers that control arms, banking medicine use religion as a tool.

My wife grew up a Jehovah's Witness. Although they don't focus on hell fire, they have many different teachings that are just as harmful to kids minds. One of which is the constant predicting of the end of the world. My wife recalls sitting in class as a young child and thinking she would never reach the age of 16 and never be able to get her license and drive her friends around. Well, she is 36 now. She doesn't go to the meetings anymore but still has a strange connection to the JWs. She defends their doctrine from time to time but doesn't really know why.

The power of fear based mind control is extremely strong.

...Great thread by the way

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: beezzer
What are the solutions. . . . . . .

Education. Like this thread. Certainly not government control. People are free to teach their kids whatever they want, but just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. I honestly don't think many religious folks are even aware of the damage they're doing to their kids. If they were, perhaps they'd stop going to the churches they attend and find a more loving, inclusive group to congregate with. Religion can be taught with love. At home. There doesn't need to be all the guilt, fear and shame associated with modern religion.

If I had kids, I'd teach them love, integrity, honesty, compassion, etc. And I'm an atheist. These are all qualities that Jesus of the bible taught. People don't have to be involved in modern religion to teach their children these tenets.

We can't make people raise their children any differently, but we can work to educate them. I wouldn't be opposed to the government offering (not requiring) to educate parents on what effects religious indoctrination has, but then it's up to the parents to choose what to do. Once they have an education, they can make a free and educated choice.

I was screwed up for years because of the strict religious upbringing I had. Still am to a degree. It takes a lot of work to get over some of that crap.

One of those rare times that I actually agree with you.

Yes! I agree also. Jesus mission was love not fear.

Luckily my household wasn't heavy on any ideology. It gave me the opportunity to think about things from a more unbiased and clear fashion on my own. Although my family would be considered Christian, mostly baptist, and catholic. But religion wasn't a topic that was brought up very often.

When I was about 13 or so, I went through a phase where I was trying to put my faith into Christianity, but I never got anything out of it. I knew in the back of my own mind I was basically just BSing myself. It was more of a trying to "fit in thing." Mostly because I had a buddy that was a few years older than me, who was Pentecostal. And his family was relatively heavy on it. I went to his church multiple times. I'd say maybe 5 times or so. Within those visits, I experienced people "speaking in tongues" every time during the service. If you've been to a Penecostal church you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I actually did it myself. And it was pretty damn weird. But I never felt "the hand of god" or anything like that. Mostly just a void in my mind. And I even got baptized there on another occasion at that church.

And looking back, I don't really know why I did that. I wouldn't really say I regret it, since I can say personally that I experienced it and it was nothing special. I didn't really know any better in the first place. I was young and trying to overcompensate for my unreligiousness that apparently is frowned upon in society. At least for the most part.

And a lot of kids have to endure that sort of thing. Ideology is pounded into their heads hard enough and long enough to the point where they will forever live in a state of denial and self assurance. Kids are the prime targets. They don't know any better. They can't grasp or understand complex ideas and thoughts. You can convince a kid to think anything. Which is why most parents give their kids cutesy wrong answers to a lot of questions they ask. They usually don't have the patience or even knowledge for that matter to accommodate them. And that's what's so great about religion. It makes bringing up a child much more easier. If they have a question about something, look in the bible. If you think their behaving badly, check the bible, and tell them what their doing is wrong, and what their possible punishment is. Tell them god commands them to do it, that ought to straighten them out real nicely. It's a really lazy parenting guide when you think about it really.

A couple of thoughts from...the traumatized...who was also a traumatizer...

My paternal grandmother was a "pioneering preacher/pastor" in the kind of evangelical/pentecostal Christianity that continuously beats its young (all ages, to be fair) with the Promise of Hell, and the Possibility of Heaven.
My father...tried to follow as closely as he could, in her footsteps...
We attended church Sunday Morning, Sunday Evening, Wednesday Evening, and any other services that might emerge...any given weeknight.
Revivals, Campmeetings, etc... Every service.
Hell was the constant. I was probably "saved/forgiven" thousands of times...and always knew it was very temporary - as I just wasn't good enough.
My parents reinforced this belief, as...through my childhood and early adolescence, I was beaten regularly and with fervor.
Any time my father was on the giving-end of said beatings...he worked himself into a rage, and justified it as "God's wrath".
Two years before his death, he laughingly admitted that "Yeah - your brother told me that a lot of your whippings should have been his."
And, when I pressed the matter, he spat - "You probably deserved more...!"
I would have laughed...had I not known that he meant that he had 'disobeyed God' many times, by not beating me...and, he was paying the price for it (reaping his harvest), with such an unholy/unrighteous loser of a child...

Having said that - the following may come as a shock/surprise...

Many, pretending to hold an ideological perch that is higher, better, more reasonable, sound &/or educated...are no different...no better...than those being berated and ridiculed throughout this thread.

Yep... They ...are JUST LIKE...YOU!

You are no smarter.
You are no more reasonable and rational.
You just have a different...religion/ideology...to push...

If you/they/ANYONE had a corner on the Truth...there would be no more arguing.
It would quickly, easily and profoundly become evident...and set all other questions to rest.
But every "belief" system requires...leaps & bounds...of...faith.
So...the all elusive "Truth"...is still...a roll of the dice.

Why do we say -
"Leave those unmolested tribes in the Amazon/Africa/New Guinea (wherever) alone... Why do we have to ruin them...too?"
--- Yet --- we want everyone-around-us...to Agree with what We BELIEVE is...more evolved or more divinely sanctioned...or.........right.

In other words - I don't know that there is a good answer/solution for the problem (and, Yes - I do count it a problem) described in the OP.
But - saying you are better - and even getting 100's or 1,000's to agree with you...doesn't make you...better.

I don't think the kids are filled with any mortal fear by being made aware of hell

a reply to: Nochzwei

I was. My nightmares as a child were full of Satan fear of him and him tempting me to sin and of demons and hell. Also of a man being beaten and nailed to a cross. I would wake up so scared i couldn't even scream although I wanted to. I would then lie in my bed and shake and cry. I was probably six or seven. I was terrified of Satan whispering thoughts into my mind to cause me to sin because I was told that is what he did if you didn't pray enough for gods protection but I was never sure how much was enough and since i would get in trouble, it was clear i didn't pray hard enough.

So yeah, I was in mortal fear of hell.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

Along with hell, the doctrine of age of accountability is not in the bible. The idea that kids go straight to heaven is made up by the hell mongers to make the slander of God more palatable.

a reply to: CRUSTY37

Jehovah's Witnesses are believers in Annihilation, meaning if you aren't 'in' instead of being tortured for all of eternity, you are snuffed out at the end of the world.

Although it is slightly more palatable, the end is the same. FEAR

Does God send people to hell? I cant put it any better than this 15 minute clip.

a reply to: Cinrad

Hmmm. Starred you for contribution, then watched the video.

Just....no.
More self-blame and "obedience" talk. Although veiled in "you bring it on yourself, God doesn't do it to you", it still blames the person. Accountability is fine, but there was still too much "well, you just didn't live right It's your own fault!" involved.

You see, I think everyone really is doing their best. We all need help and guidance from time to time. Encouraging people to look to a silent father-figure who will never show his face is not the most effective way of helping. Besides that, the Bible was written by men. Human men.

Thanks for your post all the same.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Nice thread OP. Love your point of view. I too attended church during my formative years. It took 50 years for me to finally be rid of the guilt trip they laid on me.

Have you heard George Carlin on the subject?

And even if the kids were getting a ride in the carpool lane to heaven, it still doesn't explain how Christians can reconcile the concept of a loving god who forgives us our sins, per J.C. With the utter wanton destruction and brutal violence that is the hallmark greeting of the OT god. Though I suppose it was easier to pull off when Christianity finally made it to the big leagues under Constantine having a vast population of mostly illiterate and uneducated peasants.

I could go into detail about the reasons God did what he did in the OT, however, I feel as if you would not be interested, not believe me. So have a nice day.

Probably last thought on this, and this is as real as it gets. Where is the difference, between religious indoctrination, and any other kind? Answer: None. Focus on religion, as if that were all the problem were, and not the bad people that make up certain demographics of the World, nah, couldn't be. I have heard all the rhetoric, all the complaints, and they usually all boil down to the same tired analogies, and old gripes.

The fact is, that people are angry, petulant, and idolatrous. They worship themselves as the supreme beings in their World, and no other god is allowed. You want to blame religion for the World's problems, fine. I would, for the most part agree. ORGANIZED religion is abhorrent. Free worship of God is beautiful. Organized religion taunts the World with it's mockery of God. It is filled with rampant abuse, corruption, and other darkness. The issue I have, is that people want to blame God. As if he picked corrupted people to fill his ranks, on purpose. All one has to do is look out their window, at the perfection of the Universe and see God. I see a lot of people shaking their fists at God, for the actions of men, which is illogical.

I'll just finish with this: God and religion are not the same thing.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Cinrad

Hmmm. Starred you for contribution, then watched the video.

Just....no.
More self-blame and "obedience" talk. Although veiled in "you bring it on yourself, God doesn't do it to you", it still blames the person. Accountability is fine, but there was still too much "well, you just didn't live right It's your own fault!" involved.

You see, I think everyone really is doing their best. We all need help and guidance from time to time. Encouraging people to look to a silent father-figure who will never show his face is not the most effective way of helping. Besides that, the Bible was written by men. Human men.

Thanks for your post all the same.

I see the reaction toward God, the surprise and moral conundrum some have that ask how christians justify and reconcile the OT God with Jesus, as just another reaction. Even these critics must apply NT to OT, as best the can, to even ask the ignorant question.

Even Jesus said the occupiers of the vineyard would be executed and fear Him that can cast you into hell. Same God just a new covenant.

What is the difference between scaring kids about going to hell and the present day tactic of the Education Industry of scaring them about "ruining the planet" by driving cars and living in "too big" houses?
I know of kindergarten kids who came home after their first week at school crying because the teacher had told them that their parents had polluted the earth and were ruining the world because they drove cars that used gasoline! That all the fishes in the ocean were dying ....the world is ending ....because we're using paper bags for groceries----No! Wait---it's ending because plastic grocery bags are getting into the oceans...No! Wait---humankind is a virus on the planet and needs to be controlled!
At least we were told how to protect ourselves from the atomic bombs about to be dropped on us---Duck and Cover.
If you don't want to teach religion to your kids---don't teach religion to your kids. It is not up to you to make that decision for others however. It is not up to you to CONTROL others.

The documentary "Jesus Camp" show how damaging religious indroctronation is but also show the terrible exploitation of children's innate and sincere 'spiritual' sense. I don't like to say this basic goodness and enthusiasim is deliberatly twisted and debased for temporal goals but it offen is. It's like many (not all) of the fundamentalist Islamic Madrasses twist and degrade children to their agenda.

Literal understanding of any religious text is absurd, but children are very literal creatures and easily accept them in that light. It is only through modeling and teaching that they learn to mature into abstract thinking which is where the domain of religion properly exists.

Stunting your child's development at this pre-abstract level of understanding is child abuse in my opinion. Teaching children your values and beliefs is a core parenting responsibilty. Modeling behavior, speech and thought that is CONSISTANT with the values is vital to a wholesome development.

However consistant teaching and modeling in a strict fundamentalist worldview continuly narrows the perception and functionality of the individual so taught because of the narrowly defined boundaries of their world. These boundaries do not look outward or attempt to include anything new, they shrink to very smaller scopes of experience in succeeding generations.

I recommend the documentary and it can be found on Hot Documentaries, I don't include the link as I've found the site problematic.

I'm adding a link to the most wonderful (how Valley is that?) "The Filter Bubble: How the New Personalized Web is Changing What We Read and How We Think" by Eli Pariser.

www.amazon.com...

It explains this pheononom of shinking worldview and how the internet, as it is, is encouraging each and every one of us to shink our worldview not enlarge it as the internet did in the beginnings. Whether by design or not, it doesn't say, but posits the very insidious realitity of the situation. The only antidote is to be cognizant of the nature of the beast and willfully seek to expand your worldview by whatever means available.