Traumatized by Christian Dogma & The Evangelical "Good News Club"

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
God of the OT was such a super troll lol

originally posted by: gentledissident
I absolutely hold that indoctrinating children into cults, like Christianity, is child abuse. It's not the fault of the abuser, though. It's the cycle of abuse.

This echoes my thoughts on the matter. If it was not contained within the legitimizing context of an established religion this sort of fear-driven brainwashing would be considered child abuse. It would be weird if not so historically common; there is something about the human condition that perpetuates this dynamic. I think that a "cycle of abuse" is accurate enough but may just be scratching the surface of something far more intrinsic and bone deep that is so often poignantly manifested in these religious fascinations woven into and bound with our social schemas.

I have my own childhood stories to tell regarding an evangelical Christian influence so I must admit a bias here. I can sympathize with the OP and many others who have posted however.

a reply to: diggindirt

I thought about your post for a long time last night - and some more this morning

What is the difference between scaring kids about going to hell and the present day tactic of the Education Industry of scaring them about "ruining the planet" by driving cars and living in "too big" houses?

To be honest - not much of a difference. The only thing I would point out is that, despite personal opinions to the contrary - this information is dealing with real world problems - not faith in something that can't be observed

I absolutely agree however that it's age appropriate information. Even at an appropriate age it's sometimes too much for us to handle. I had a little too much real world information handed to me when I was probably too young to process it properly. We need perspective and a sense of history and proportion to be able to work out certain things in our heads

I know of kindergarten kids who came home after their first week at school crying because the teacher had told them that their parents had polluted the earth and were ruining the world because they drove cars that used gasoline! That all the fishes in the ocean were dying ....the world is ending ....because we're using paper bags for groceries----No! Wait---it's ending because plastic grocery bags are getting into the oceans...No! Wait---humankind is a virus on the planet and needs to be controlled!

This is what makes me doubt your sincerity. It almost sounds like a politicized counter to a criticism of religion

I don't actually know that there aren't teachers that would say something like this to a Kindergarten class - and if there are I imagine it's pretty rare

Am I wrong? I'm not a teacher - or a kindergartner, so I don't know what the standards are

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
I wasn't really brought up terribly religious, but my Mother tried to indoctrinate us somewhat, by having us go to Sunday school, church on occason etc.
Wished I never knew about it.

It takes a hell of a lot of mental effort to cast the evil yahweh out of ones life.

You mean you don't BELIEVE!?

I have always struggled with belief, going so far as to say 'oh, this is proof of god' and all that other BS christians do to help in belief. But ultimately I could no longer believe it.

Oh, I am getting to my point.

The last thing to go in ones anti-conversion is the thought of burning in eternity -FOREVER!-
That one fear is the fear that stops people from waking up completely.

How, as a society would we be without this kind of cultish brainwash?

YES CULTish, people don't see it as a cult, because a cult is based on fantasy .....right?
But not much of a fantasy.

Jesus was not the son of god, and there is no such thing as a yahweh as is in the OT (what a prick that guy is)

I read some of the thread, then had to stop..

I am not overly religious but all the hate I see directed at churches astounds me, the majority of churches do not bombard their children with images of hell, or intolerance.

Living in Oklahoma I have seen and assisted churches doing gods work... I have no doubt about that.

After the Moore F5 tornado, Churches were some of the first organized responders..and more importantly to me they continued to respond in the smaller towns that were devastated in outer areas that fema pretty much ignored.

I saw their children bringing in boxes of their own toys to give to the kids that lost everything, this year when a tornado hit some small towns in Arkansas a church had gathered supplies and was heading out for the affected areas within 8 hours to help those in need.

Are their bad churches of course... just like there are bad Mexicans, or bad white people, or bad food, or bad weather.. but to take such a harsh view of all because of a handful of bad groups seems short sighted to me.

And I haven't even touched on the food banks, outreach programs for the homeless, or drug addicted.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Are their bad churches of course... just like there are bad Mexicans, or bad white people, or bad food, or bad weather.. but to take such a harsh view of all because of a handful of bad groups seems short sighted to me.

I regret that you missed the actual opening of the thread, where I stated specifically that the article & thread are addressing ONLY ONE STYLE, definitely a minority, of Christianity.

There are more loving, kind Christians (and Muslims and so forth and so on) than the other sort - but that sort DOES exist, and they DO traumatize their children.

Thanks for your input, nevertheless.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Fair enough it wasn't your post that set me off several of the replies struck me more of the all churches are bad.

I should have clarified my response better, apologies for the misunderstanding.

a reply to: Cinrad

I agree that "ministers" use the threat of hell fire and damnation as a big stick to hold over their poor sheeple members. God is not like that, he actually wants to help you out of the mess you are in through not fault of your own.

So you agree with the premise of the OP. And you say God is not like that. Wonderful, I'm glad that you feel comforted and safe in the care of God. My problem/issue is the ministers who do use that threat. I want them to be stopped/corrected.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
I read some of the thread, then had to stop..

I am not overly religious but all the hate I see directed at churches astounds me, the majority of churches do not bombard their children with images of hell, or intolerance.

This is a good thing, sort of like a revolution, hopefully the hate will grow.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Living in Oklahoma I have seen and assisted churches doing gods work... I have no doubt about that.

We don't need the fear of hell to be good people, the thought that churchs are the only ones to help is a myth IMO. And a lot of them are only helping because they fear hell, therefore they are helpful not for you, but their own eternal soul.
Is that right?

I would assume their is something wrong with that.

Hows the best way to train a dog, with beatings or treats? Both work, but what kind of a god, er dog do you want?

a reply to: Irishhaf

Are their bad churches of course... just like there are bad Mexicans, or bad white people, or bad food, or bad weather.. but to take such a harsh view of all because of a handful of bad groups seems short sighted to me.

See? There are bad churches - true. And bad people - and then, bad methods for accomplishing a goal. If someone wants to introduce their child to God - I'm pretty sure most people bring them in with the understanding that God is good - and that their child is good - and also loved

Most people

This is a thread that is questioning people who handle all that in a different way. Nobody is saying religion is bad or churches are all wrong. Many of the experiences related here in this thread are personal, and first hand - they're entitled to their opinions. They earned them. Churches and religious people have contributed an enormous amount of good to this world - and you should obviously recognize - as most of us do - that we're not talking about everyone here

None of that changes the fact that many very young children are more or less coerced into their faith - bullied psychologically - black mailed into believing. They're too young to make an informed choice

It's mean

I loved Peter Pan when I was a kid - the whole thing, except this part:

"No. You see children know such a lot now, they soon don't believe in fairies, and every time a child says, 'I don't believe in fairies,' there is a fairy somewhere that falls down dead."

Clap children - clap for Tinker Bell - or she's a goner!

I seriously had to sit there and wonder if I believed in fairies enough to prevent a death

I wanted to believe - I really did

:-)

originally posted by: diggindirt
What is the difference between scaring kids about going to hell and the present day tactic of the Education Industry of scaring them about "ruining the planet" by driving cars and living in "too big" houses?

The idea of Hell is eternal damnation, eternal fire, eternal suffering. Pain, bondage, misery. It's a boogie-man story without ANY facts to back it up whatsoever.

We ARE ruining the planet. That's a fact. We are using our resources faster than they are produced. That's not an attempt to scare anyone, it's a fact. That's called education. There are REAL consequences to our actions without having to make up something to scare people into "being good".

I know of kindergarten kids who came home after their first week at school crying because the teacher had told them that their parents had polluted the earth and were ruining the world because they drove cars that used gasoline! That all the fishes in the ocean were dying ....the world is ending ....

If this is true, which I doubt, Spiramirabilis covered it.

It is not up to you to make that decision for others however. It is not up to you to CONTROL others.

No one is making decisions for anyone else. That's kind of impossible to do. This thread is EDUCATION. YOU make the decision.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

We ARE ruining the planet. That's a fact. We are using our resources faster than they are produced. That's not an attempt to scare anyone, it's a fact. That's called education. There are REAL consequences to our actions without having to make up something to scare people into "being good".

Thanks.

I thought about responding to the "but what about environmental BS" presented by diggindirt and Logarock, but didn't want to derail the thread in that direction.

But it's what I said, out loud, to myself when I read those posts.

Yes, we ARE ruining the planet - which IS our "mother" - and the results are there for ALL TO SEE. Unlike the God stuff...

Thanks to Spira, also.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. What I said is true. I saw two of these children myself. Had they been my children I would have been making a trip to talk with the teachers and administrators. In those two cases, it was not the teacher who delivered the message but a helpful volunteer who came to "guide the children to proper thinking about the Earth" as the announcement of their encounter put it after the incident.
I don't know about you but at five years of age, I didn't have the slightest understanding of "eternal hell and damnation" despite being raised in a Christian home. I did, however, have a notion what "death" meant due to having relatives and pets die. The children I speak of were in the same boat, if that volunteer had spoken of "eternal hell and damnation" they probably wouldn't have had such a devastated reaction because it was beyond their understanding but because they understood what "death" means they literally believed they were going to die because their parents were driving a car that used gasoline.
I do have empathy for children who are traumatized by people or events. We all suffer in some way as children but we either find ways to recover or we use our suffering as an excuse for every unpleasant thing that occurs.
Just as we can all find a percentage of "bad, evil" people in any organization, so it is with religion but to paint with a broad brush and say that churches are the root of the wrongs in our society is just over-reaching a bit.
Buzzy, despite your "disclaimers" on how you don't mean all Christians, you take every opportunity in your posts to bash them in your passive/aggressive manner. If you don't want to believe in a higher power, that's your right. But saying that you are somehow empowered by the non-higher power to tell others what they may or may not teach their children is just absurd.

originally posted by: diggindirt
We all suffer in some way as children but we either find ways to recover or we use our suffering as an excuse for every unpleasant thing that occurs.

Just because we all suffer as children doesn't mean it's a good idea to continue it. In fact, we spend most of our adult life overcoming the wounds from our childhood. If we can take away SOME of the suffering that children go through, I think it's a Good Thing.

Buzzy, despite your "disclaimers" on how you don't mean all Christians, you take every opportunity in your posts to bash them in your passive/aggressive manner.

This is not true. May I suggest that you're hyper sensitive to any criticism? Criticism is part of life and it doesn't necessarily mean a person is "bashing" you.

But saying that you are somehow empowered by the non-higher power to tell others what they may or may not teach their children is just absurd.

That WOULD BE absurd, if that was even CLOSE to what Buzzy was doing. Please quote the post where this was said. Otherwise, you're just making stuff up to be pissed about.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Like I said, God could have killed all the sinners with pin point precision without any collateral damage. It actually makes sense to do it that way so the believers are vindicated in their faith. By destroying everything indiscriminately then there is no way to tell. You can rationalize all you want about the events, but the fact is that God destroyed two whole cities not sparing a soul and we are to believe that even the CHILDREN were beyond saving. I call BS.

a reply to: diggindirt

you take every opportunity in your posts to bash them in your passive/aggressive manner.

To bash whom? "Christians" in general? Nope. I don't do that. Perhaps if you see it as aggressive you might review your own biases.

If you don't want to believe in a higher power, that's your right.

Never said that I don't, but thanks.

But saying that you are somehow empowered by the non-higher power to tell others what they may or may not teach their children is just absurd.

Never said that, either!

Look, you can take or leave anything I've said. You don't have to pay any attention whatsoever to what I have to say.
I'm not "empowered" by anything but my education and experience, and freedom of speech. If you want to persist in teaching little kids about hell, there's not one damned thing I can do to stop you.

Do whatever. If I put a thought in front of you that made you feel uncomfortable, well, that discomfort is part of YOUR issue, not mine.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
I'm not encouraging people to torture children nor am I condoning it.
I am not a Christian even though I was raised in a Christian home.
I am not hyper-sensitive to criticism, I just get really, really tired of non-believers in anything concerning a higher power trouncing anyone whose beliefs differ.
I'm not making stuff up to "be pissed about" because I'm not pissed about anything. This is an internet discussion forum, not a thing to "get pissed about" and if you can't discuss things without "getting pissed" then I feel for you.
I simply asked how is it different (and perfectly okay) to scare a small child into tears with dire predictions about "death to all" with environmental issues? Is that not torture also?

a reply to: diggindirt

I try to be thoughtful - and balanced. Doesn't always work out that way

Just so we're clear, I don't think it's wrong to teach kids about the environment. I think it's a good thing to teach kids early on that we have a responsibility towards this planet we all share. I don't think it's a good thing to lie to kids, but I do agree there are things that they aren't old enough to understand in a way that won't cause them a lot of emotional harm

I don't think we need to use either guilt or fear as teaching tools

Eternal hell and damnation are not beyond the understanding of any small child - you seem to be saying you think that concept is the lesser evil of these two concepts. That somehow it's just above their heads - but if that's true, why teach it at all? It sort of gives away your bias - don't you think?

I'm just going to have to say here that I don't believe in eternal hell - or damnation. But, if I did - those wouldn't be the concepts I would use to teach my child about my faith

Buzzy is performing a public service as far as I'm concerned - what she personally believes doesn't enter into it. Teaching kids to fear something that can't be proven is irresponsible and cruel. Seems like they should be allowed to grow up a little and think through these things themselves

But saying that you are somehow empowered by the non-higher power to tell others what they may or may not teach their children is just absurd.

Not sure where you got this idea, but it's also true that you aren't empowered by anything or anyone to argue against teaching about environmental issues...

We all have our opinions though - don't we?

:-)

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
Since I've stated many, many times that I don't claim to be a Christian, how can you say, " If you want to persist in teaching little kids about hell, there's not one damned thing I can do to stop you." ??? I'm not teaching children about hell....I teach them archaeology and the subject of hell has never once come up.
My children were taught a brand of Christianity (when I was still attempting to follow that path) that says that God loves us all and wants only the best for our lives. I thought then, and still do today that "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." was a good motto for a society so that is what I taught my children and have attempted to do the same with my grandchildren. As I did, when my children became adults, they made their own minds up about how to approach religion. That is our right in this country.
I say it is wrong to cause suffering to any child.
My question was: "What is the difference between scaring kids about going to hell and the present day tactic of the Education Industry of scaring them about "ruining the planet" by driving cars and living in "too big" houses?" If you don't wish to address my question, that's okay. I thought you were interested in causing less pain and guilt in kids.
I'm sorry that you grew up feeling less than good about yourself. Your passive/aggressive approach to these issues shows pretty clearly that you are being truthful in confessing that. However, to constantly nit-pick at people who hold different beliefs shows that you haven't yet fully conquered that issue.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

As a Christian I know "Hell" is a false and terrible dogma propagated by the clergy of Christendom to scare the masses.
That is not to say there is no punishment, for breaking the rules, but it isn't that(Hell). Ironically it is what an atheist would believe, that is non-existence.

The absolute truth of the matter right there it is. But I
would add, that just before non existence is granted.
They will lament at the sight of what they have so
foolishly rejected.