How Israel used it's own civilians as human shields while assaulting Gaza.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

I read the article... was rather stupid, I felt. I also clicked around and pulled up other articles which also had little in the way of sound journalism involved. As a journalistic source, this one fails rather miserably as it is beyond subjective. I would not hesitate to say that some of the authors that contributed articles have a lack of understanding what the word objective means with regards to reporting.

Might as well link an article from Mad Magazine as a basis for your OP. It will contain just as much truth, but a buttload more humor

If you can't see the obvious points then it's either your reading comprehension or your ability to understand the situation. Nothing stupid about it.

I guess you disagree that the IDF staying in these villages and keeping their weapons there during operations makes the villages more obvious targets?

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I'm not sure you have any grounds to say the video turns out to be genuine. An anti-Israel activist who left the Israeli military six years ago, claims that three Israeli soldiers (unnamed) told him about the shooting.

Mr. Efrati claims that it was a sniper, not an ordinary soldier, and that the sniper has a sight picture. He requests permission to fire three times and is finally allowed to. The claim is that a sniper with a good sight picture, hits his target in the hand? That is so silly as to be preposterous.

It's made even worse when Efrati claims the man was shot by a sniper three times resulting in no visible blood, torn clothing or any other injury.

The video is still completely unbelievable. (You'll note, by the way that the video was edited by a pro-Palestinian group which takes credit for the editing at the end.) Were this any other subject it would have been thrown in the hoax bin.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Hamas targets civilians ... Or I just arrived from another planet.

When you set off a bomb inside a bus with nary a single soldier in it, that is targeting civilians. When you set off a bomb inside a night club, that is targeting civilians. Hamas does not seek out soldiers to shoot at or blow up unless they (IDF) is inside Gaza. If the Hamas attack is outside Gaza then civilians are normally the target.

originally posted by: MrCynic
Wouldn't using a human shield require the person shooting care about whether your shield lives or dies? Since a good % of the rockets are targeted right into the areas adjacent to the Gaza border in a 'spray and pray' approach to hitting something, would they care or alter their plans because Israelis have Israeli citizens in the area too?

It seems to me that it might cause them to shoot MORE not less. Get Israelis and IDF troops at the same time. Looking at Hamas tactics and priorities? That does seem more likely as the outcome. That wouldn't be shields, but magnets.

Also, no it doesn't require that the person firing cares if the shields live or die. What's important is the worlds opionion. If you can shield yourself with civilians in hopes they are killed so you can use their deaths to gain international sympathies.

The same could be said for Israel. Do you think Israel cares whether Palestinian civilians live or die? The whole reason they claim Human shields are used obviously isn't to deter attacks, because they don't, Israel shoots them and says "civilians were killed because Hamas" obviously they don't care.

People have got the concept of Human Shields backwards as it pertains to Gaza and Israel.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

If those villages are obvious targets, why doesn't Hamas put a dozen rockets into the town square?

If you say the rockets aren't accurate enough to hit a target reliably, then you may be added to the list of experts at the trial of Hamas for war crimes.

If you can't tell where your rocket is going to end up fairly reliably, then firing it where it might hit a civilian population is a war crime.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Hamas targets civilians ... Or I just arrived from another planet.

When you set off a bomb inside a bus with nary a single soldier in it, that is targeting civilians. When you set off a bomb inside a night club, that is targeting civilians. Hamas does not seek out soldiers to shoot at or blow up unless they (IDF) is inside Gaza. If the Hamas attack is outside Gaza then civilians are normally the target.

When is the last time that happened. We are talking about recent events. Suicide bombings haven't been happening for 7 years or so there.

This most recent conflict 99 percent of those killed by Hamas were IDF.

Obviously their goal is to kill IDF.

You don't seem to understand the point of the whole Human Shield argument in the area. I suggest your read my above post to MrCynic.

a reply to: charles1952

If you say that, then the same can be said for Israel who hit civilians with both guided and unguided munitions.

Bigger war crime is dropping such munitions on one of the most densely populated places on Earth.

That's neither here nor there though. This is about Israel being guilty of the exact same thing they accuse Hamas of doing.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

If you are familiar with Israel, then you know military service is not optional. It is compulsory.

Define civilian in a nation where almost everyone native and over the age of 18 is either serving now, under reserve status to serve again or are veterans from having served before? It's a fuzzy thing there. You can look at that by how the Israelis do or do not consider them innocents in the way of children to be among combat troops in the field or you can look at it as how Hamas might consider the difference or lack of distinction.

Shields still need to be people your enemy will cease fire to save the lives of, and normal Israelis living on the border should also know to relocate the way they freely can for a period of days in Israel, and be outside the extended combat zone. It isn't like this doesn't happen every couple years to expect it again and plan ahead.

Hamas is in and among people who cannot just relocate as a big difference. There are open spaces in Gaza, but they still fire from within the dense population by choice.

You also point out in another post that Hamas killed 99% IDF this time. Is that saying the 3000+ rockets they fired to the cease fire really were targeted and targeted to specific IDF points all over Israel or could they have been indiscriminate with Hamas having a real bad time losing their best efforts to Iron Dome?

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

By that definition anywhere the soldiers stay in their off time is using human shields. That is not how it works.

IF you are going to use human shields, you use them while engaged with the enemy, otherwise what is the point?

By that definition then our whole stateside military is using civilians as human shields. Stupid.

If they were firing weapons, artillery, missiles or whatever from these villages then yes. But taking downtime at a place that, to me, seems away from the conflict (in Gaza) is not endangering anyone.

I guess if Hamas gave a damn about civilian deaths, then perhaps civilian shields might work.... but Hamas routinely targets civilians. Hence bombs going off inside civilian busses (not military) and going off inside night clubs or cafe's. Heck, Hamas doesn't even care about their own civilian deaths, other than the propaganda value they present.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Dear GogoVicMorrow,

I've always seen it reported that those homemade rockets of Hamas are really unreliable. Some have been reported to land and explode in Gaza.

But I thought the IDF was using artillery and air attacks to target Hamas. Are rockets a big part of Israel's weaponry against Gaza? I haven't seen that. Those are infinitely precise compared to Gaza's rockets.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

I'm not sure you have any grounds to say the video turns out to be genuine. An anti-Israel activist who left the Israeli military six years ago, claims that three Israeli soldiers (unnamed) told him about the shooting.

Mr. Efrati claims that it was a sniper, not an ordinary soldier, and that the sniper has a sight picture. He requests permission to fire three times and is finally allowed to. The claim is that a sniper with a good sight picture, hits his target in the hand? That is so silly as to be preposterous.

It's made even worse when Efrati claims the man was shot by a sniper three times resulting in no visible blood, torn clothing or any other injury.

The video is still completely unbelievable. (You'll note, by the way that the video was edited by a pro-Palestinian group which takes credit for the editing at the end.) Were this any other subject it would have been thrown in the hoax bin.

You say a lot but rarely does it have meaning:

The claim is that a sniper with a good sight picture, hits his target in the hand? That is so silly as to be preposterous.

Are you an expert in shooting people, or per the video, murdering someone?

The video is still completely unbelievable

Did I miss the special effects, why is it unbelievable?

It's made even worse when Efrati claims the man was shot by a sniper three times resulting in no visible blood, torn clothing or any other injury.

You can't tell, it's a shaky video taken from ten feet away whilst under fire

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Um, let's see.. 7 years ago was the last suicide bomb...because there is no longer free movement from Gaza through Israel and hasn't been for 7 years.

You say 99% of the deaths have been IDF... I suppose that would be because a) their missile attack has been ineffective and b) no civilians are entering Gaza where they can be targeted and c) Hamas has not been successful at penetrating IDF defenses to get a chance.

Being intellectually honest, you know that Hamas would have taken out any civilians that would have presented the opportunity. You also know that Hamas has only had (other than the ineffective missile attacks) the opportunity to attack IDF once they entered Gaza.

The whole thing is disingenuous, particularly the OP and the article. If soldiers remove themselves from the area of conflict for their downtime, then how are they using human shields? It's not like Hamas has much of a chance of striking them at that village. That is pretty much a key requirement for the use of human shields.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
This is a very interesting article that makes several great points and points out some of Israel's hypocrisy. I had never really thought about it before, but it's not even really debatable Israel totally used human shields. Regardless of the fact that it more than less inconveniences rather than endangers civilians - that is only because it isn't expected that Hamas is capable of mounting well targeted or orchestrated attacks. However, that doesn't justify Israeli military making civilians targets by using their kibbutz as stations off the front line and should an Hamas incursion find success, making these villages the place Hamas would most likely find soldiers.

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there, and sometimes they were practicing [military drills] in the fields, in the kibbutz grass — they were hiding there and making plans,” Raz told me. “The way I saw it, they were using us as human shields.” Raz recalled, “We were right on the border of the Gaza Strip and they were practicing in the fields with weaponry, whether it’s with their rifle or armored vehicles. I could hear explosions [from the fields] while they were practicing and maybe even shooting things into Gaza.”

It also touches on the point that many important Israelis have tried to blur the line between Palestinian civilians and Hamas (and the large civilian death toll to Palestinians is likely a result of this). This of course becomes a dangerous position for Israel as they force all civilians into service and make them remain in reserve until they are 40 which means they are always switching between civilian and military role for a large part of their lives which actually does blur the lines (and in many instances from this most recent attack you find Israeli civilians who offer support in ways that have them driving up to the front lines, or even going there for entertainment to watch rockets shot down - something unique to the Israeli battlefield). It of course doesn't linger on that point so it can't be implied that Israeli civilians, even if they are between military roles, are any less of a civilian.

Definitely worth checking out.

How Israel Used It's Own Civilians As Human Shields While Assaulting Gaza

What a whacko story...The Israeli military was between the civilians and enemy, protecting the civilians, not behind then as Hamas does...

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Dear Zcustosmorum,

Fair enough questions. Let's see what I can do.

Are you an expert in shooting people, or per the video, murdering someone?

I wouldn't call myself an expert, no.

Did I miss the special effects, why is it unbelievable?

As I've mentioned, you don't put three rifle rounds into somebody without splattering their head, or tearing their clothing. Snipers don't hit (not shoot at, the video claims he's hit) a man three times, twice while he's lying on the ground without causing some visible damage.

The editing makes it suspicious, we never see him fall. He appears to be arranged rather comfortably on the rubble.

But, really, I shouldn't have to repeat all this. The thread is only a couple of pages long, check for things like the tank noise, the camera position, etc., etc.

You can't tell, it's a shaky video taken from ten feet away whilst under fire

Then you must be looking at a different video. It was not filmed using a tripod, granted. But if it had been too shaky to make out, they would have filmed it again.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: MrCynic
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

If you are familiar with Israel, then you know military service is not optional. It is compulsory.

Define civilian in a nation where almost everyone native and over the age of 18 is either serving now, under reserve status to serve again or are veterans from having served before? It's a fuzzy thing there. You can look at that by how the Israelis do or do not consider them innocents in the way of children to be among combat troops in the field or you can look at it as how Hamas might consider the difference or lack of distinction.

Shields still need to be people your enemy will cease fire to save the lives of, and normal Israelis living on the border should also know to relocate the way they freely can for a period of days in Israel, and be outside the extended combat zone. It isn't like this doesn't happen every couple years to expect it again and plan ahead.

Hamas is in and among people who cannot just relocate as a big difference. There are open spaces in Gaza, but they still fire from within the dense population by choice.

You also point out in another post that Hamas killed 99% IDF this time. Is that saying the 3000+ rockets they fired to the cease fire really were targeted and targeted to specific IDF points all over Israel or could they have been indiscriminate with Hamas having a real bad time losing their best efforts to Iron Dome?

I noted and actually discussed the point of compulsory military service in my op. Did you actually read what I posted or just launch into arguing based on the headline.

If human shields are someyhing that need to make you reconsider firing than why does Israrl not fire. They talk alot about hamas forcing people tobe human shields but never that they didnt fire because of tgis. Is Hamas using secret human shields? Does that mean they arent human shields? Is a shield something to deter an attack or protect against the effectiveness?

Hamas' alleged human shields do not deter israel. However according to Israel the civilian death toll caused by human shields creates internqtiknal outrage and thus is effective in some way.

Alot if people have come to this thread and launched allegations (one called me a muslim, im a white boy in appalachia lol), but no one has disproves the premise of this thread.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: g146541

If you read the article, then you know it's bogus, and your post is based on .. bogus.

If you didn't read the article, then guess what? Your post is still based on .. bogus.

Of course it is bogus, the only time hamas rockets kill any of the israeli terrorists is....Hmmm....
Come to think of it, they just don't!
And really the only real shields the israelis use are the people of Palestine, we have all seen those pics.

a reply to: Iscool

Ive been waiting fhe guy who doesnt know what he's talking about, but is willing to go further than call me names, to speak up.

Sorry you are wrong the do fall back to the kibbutz (israeli villages) and shop and mingle in full uniforms. Israelis carry their guns in bikinis on beaches.. thats absurd, but it serves yhe purpose of blurring the lines of civilians and military.

The article which you didnt bother to read has an israeli source (and there are many more), a man who was a child during operation cast lead who lived in a kibbutz that israrli soldiers entered and secured weapins at.

Do you disagree that israeli soldiers entering kibbutz and storing weapkns there would maje that village a more important target to HAMAS? I guess Israrls govt can do no wrong in your eyes, even to tgeir own people.

a reply to: bbracken677

Not talking about israeli soldiers off time. This is talking about aoldiers during an opetation moving personel and weapons into towns on the border that they dont live in. Dont pretend to have read the article if you havent.

a reply to: charles1952

Definitely Hamas firecracjer rockets are unreliable, they only come down because they go up and id argue they dont even have explosives or warheads of any kind.

That doesnt change that israel has both guided and unguided munitions and they use both.

For example the four kids shelled on a beach where they were far from anyone. Either it was a wild unreliable weapon or they killed chuldren intentionqlly with precision weapins (honestly it was two well aimed shots so we know the truth, but israel does use imprecise bombs in strikes and things like flachettes from tanks).