How Israel used it's own civilians as human shields while assaulting Gaza.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Israel goes through a great deal of effort to avoid shooting where it will kill civilians or non-Hamas people. It doesn't even have to be some heroic gesture or gracious move on their part. Israel cares about public relations and media image to at least the degree they aren't leveling whole hospitals and civilian housing with everyone still inside it to get 100% of Hamas launchers.

The BIG difference is Hamas fires from inside dense population, knowing the counter-battery fire is near automatic for the timing required to have value. That literally makes Hamas help choose Israel's targets to a degree beyond ignoring. Cause and Effect with 100% certain outcome like this qualifies as more than passing responsibility on that return fire issue. Then they run off between buildings USING the buildings as cover. Those buildings with Palestinians inside.

In strikes outside immediate counter-battery, you know Israel communicates the need to leave the area to civilians, right? Is that also something to turn around as being wrong or devious? I don't know of any other military in the world that actually calls people around a targeted spot before the strike to clear innocents the best they can. That is spoken of widely and reported evenly as what has been done.

Hamas just fires warheads in the general direction of cities and hopes for the best. There is no moral equality or anything even close to it. Hamas was a terrorist organization dating clear back to 1987. They forced their way into taking power in the first real and true election the people of Gaza got or may ever see again. Now they make war while the West Bank looks to make peace.

Israel is there in both cases to do either the other side has chosen. I've never seen an Israeli human shield.

i'd rather have the IDF hanging around than hamas.

and where should soldiers leave their weapons?

also the IDF casualties were probably in gaza.

wtf?

a reply to: MrCynic

The countet battery is near automatic for shooting down rockets in the air not determining wgere they came from on the geound. That is something people have actually wondered aboyt because hamas is very stealthy. Were you tryibg to fool me or someone else casually reading with that automatic remark?

You can believe that about israel if you want but targeting 7 un refugee camps and four kids on a beach is evisence otgerwise.

You always hear "they were killed because they were being used as shields" and you never hear "we didnt fire on that location because the risk to civilians was too great."

originally posted by: tsingtao
i'd rather have the IDF hanging around than hamas.

and where should soldiers leave their weapons?

also the IDF casualties were probably in gaza.

wtf?

Seriously? How about they keep their weapons anywhere but in villages?

Solduer deaths were in both gaza and across the border, whats your point?

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: bbracken677

Not talking about israeli soldiers off time. This is talking about aoldiers during an opetation moving personel and weapons into towns on the border that they dont live in. Dont pretend to have read the article if you havent.

Apparently there is an issue with reading comprehension:

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there,

Sounds like downtime to me...

And you want to say that I didnt read the article? okie dokie!

originally posted by: bbracken677

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: bbracken677

Not talking about israeli soldiers off time. This is talking about aoldiers during an opetation moving personel and weapons into towns on the border that they dont live in. Dont pretend to have read the article if you havent.

Apparently there is an issue with reading comprehension:

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there,

Sounds like downtime to me...

And you want to say that I didnt read the article? okie dokie!

Downtime? Hanging out and sleeping in a kibbutz?

Normally when an "army" has down time they retreat to a designated base which is void of civilian presence.
This is common sense, since no "army" who pays attention to human safety would risk causing harm to the civilian population in case Hamas would suddenly jump out of one of those secret caves that we constantly hear about.

Putting their downtime amongst civilians shows that they are willing to risk that when Hamas targets the IDF they would also hit the civilians in the kibbutz and then wauwzer... they would surely have something to justify the slaughter of non-Hamas affiliated civilian Palestinians.

Like more of the kids they killed this morning when striking YET ANOTHER school.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: Iscool

Ive been waiting fhe guy who doesnt know what he's talking about, but is willing to go further than call me names, to speak up.

Sorry you are wrong the do fall back to the kibbutz (israeli villages) and shop and mingle in full uniforms. Israelis carry their guns in bikinis on beaches.. thats absurd, but it serves yhe purpose of blurring the lines of civilians and military.

The article which you didnt bother to read has an israeli source (and there are many more), a man who was a child during operation cast lead who lived in a kibbutz that israrli soldiers entered and secured weapins at.

Do you disagree that israeli soldiers entering kibbutz and storing weapkns there would maje that village a more important target to HAMAS? I guess Israrls govt can do no wrong in your eyes, even to tgeir own people.

HaHa...Did you see any Israeli soldiers down there in Gaza wearing bikinis??? So you are saying just as the Gazinians do that there are no Israeli civilians...They are all military and potential targets...

I'm sure you know as well as everyone else that Israelis in civilian clothes ARE military but on their own leisure time...And why are they required to carry weapons while off duty??? It's part of the training...You forgot to mention that these off duty girls don't have any bullets in their weapons...

The soldiers in the cities who DO have bullets in their weapons DO wear uniforms...There are no blurred lines...You are either significantly misinformed or just spreading propaganda...

a reply to: flice

Are you confusing leave with a night of relative safety?

Are you truly trying to say that Israel is really using citizens as human shields? Are you truly saying that those villages were not safe?

Perhaps you can link attacks to the kibbutzes committed by Hamas in the recent conflict so we can establish that these were not safe zones. If these are relatively safe then the whole human shield argument is not just disingenuous but a disgusting twisting of the facts. But then, that is what propaganda is all about, right? Don't worry about facts, just make a ridiculous statement and let it fly.

Are you suggesting those soldiers should spend the night in Gaza when they are able to retreat outside the zone and spend the night in safety?

During the Korean War, often military personnel would take leave in Tokyo. I suppose the US military were using the Japanese as human shields?

a reply to: Iscool

Propaganda. Clearly. Not even logical propaganda.

originally posted by: flice

originally posted by: bbracken677

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: bbracken677

Not talking about israeli soldiers off time. This is talking about aoldiers during an opetation moving personel and weapons into towns on the border that they dont live in. Dont pretend to have read the article if you havent.

Apparently there is an issue with reading comprehension:

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there,

Sounds like downtime to me...

And you want to say that I didnt read the article? okie dokie!

Downtime? Hanging out and sleeping in a kibbutz?

Normally when an "army" has down time they retreat to a designated base which is void of civilian presence.
This is common sense, since no "army" who pays attention to human safety would risk causing harm to the civilian population in case Hamas would suddenly jump out of one of those secret caves that we constantly hear about.

Putting their downtime amongst civilians shows that they are willing to risk that when Hamas targets the IDF they would also hit the civilians in the kibbutz and then wauwzer... they would surely have something to justify the slaughter of non-Hamas affiliated civilian Palestinians.

Like more of the kids they killed this morning when striking YET ANOTHER school.

That's ridiculous...Hamas doesn't target the Israel military because they shoot back...Hamas targets Israeli civilians...That's why Israel put its military amongst the Hamas targets...

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

G,day mate.
ok i read the first few lines and figured someone is.
popa oscared
YOU
and trying to feed me bull
mate regardless of what you want to call it
it is armed conflict/armed warfare
a # fest
a wankers paradise
and the truth has no point of reference

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Counter battery fire with electronic assistance goes back to the Vietnam war for testing and development. It's not difficult in concept. Arithmetic is the real issue. In the real world though, the American version of the program is called C-RAM for "Counter-Rocket, Artillery, Mortar". It consists of acquisition and tracking, warning and two levels of response. In-Flight interception by Navy mini-gun adapted for this or interceptor. The second level is return fire to "P.O.O." Or Point Of Origin, which is computed at the same time as the P.O.I. or Point Of Impact for the warning stage.

Together, the computers have a picture on a screen of where it came from, where it is going and all that while it is still in the air. I found a public army paper describing all this and uploaded a couple pictures that show the whole process in a graphic form. Of course, the red lines and blue lines all cross the skies in a very quick succession in the real situation.




Src

A system like that one is how Hamas all but chooses where Israel will return fire when firing back down the line of origin, to the Point Of Origin. That is where Hamas decided to fire from in the first place. Some of the journalists who have come out recently to report what they saw also said they feared retaliatory strikes immediately after a launch if one happened nearby as some did. They felt like pawns being played.

Israel Defense Force personnel in their Remain Over Night position are no comparison to Hamas firing projectiles under immediate tracking for location with Israelis deciding to respond or not respond to because of what is in the area. That process is what Hamas uses shields FOR and what Israel has no need to shield FROM, with no comparable threat.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

The key difference being the Israelis did not expect an attack, and none came. Hamas does expect the attack, and it does come.

Had Israeli citizens been killed in a missile strike against the soldiers I would blame whoever put the soldiers there. Same as I do for Hamas.

originally posted by: pronto
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

G,day mate.
ok i read the first few lines and figured someone is.
popa oscared
YOU
and trying to feed me bull
mate regardless of what you want to call it
it is armed conflict/armed warfare
a # fest
a wankers paradise
and the truth has no point of reference

I don't think I caught all that, but if you only read the first few sentences you should read it all. It's an interesting and truthful article. The headline is meant to be a bit of hyperbole to make a point, and in the end it does make a good argument for the headline.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If Israelis don't expect an attack and none are coming.. then what are they doing attacking?
A little one sided isn't it?

The whole war. Israel provoked.

3 teens are killed. Israel says they are missing (even though they know they are just dead) and have no idea who did it.
Bibi starts rubbing his hands together because he can use this.. and he does, he arrests almost a thousand innocent palestinians and re arrests some previously released palestinians. He knows this will cause Hamas to react, and they do, with bottle rockets. Israel mows their lawn again, as they like to put it, and the genocide continues.

originally posted by: bbracken677

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: bbracken677

Not talking about israeli soldiers off time. This is talking about aoldiers during an opetation moving personel and weapons into towns on the border that they dont live in. Dont pretend to have read the article if you havent.

Apparently there is an issue with reading comprehension:

“Most of the days soldiers were fighting in the Gaza Strip in the morning and in the evening they were coming back to our kibbutz, bringing their weapons there, they were sleeping there,

Sounds like downtime to me...

And you want to say that I didnt read the article? okie dokie!

Down time? So war is a 9-5 job on the front lines? Go bomb people then TIME OUT! go back to kibbutz even they you have targets on your backs because you are attacking soldiers. Yeah sorry, you know it's the exact same thing Israel accuses Hamas of.

I doubt even you believe the garbage you are spilling.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Apparently you have no experience from within the military. If you are inside a wide ranged theatre, such as Iraq was, or Vietnam etc then yeah, you eat, drink and sleep war.

Otherwise it is exactly like a 9-5 job, except starting earlier and longer hours.

In the case where the "war" is being conducted inside a small area such as Gaza, unless the IDF are going to remain over night in the hot zone, they will pull out troops and keep up the bombing and artillery over night. That way the IDF gets rest, but the palestinians do not... get it?

Do not try to tell me what I believe and what I do not. If that's all you got, then give it up.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Apparently you have no experience from within the military. If you are inside a wide ranged theatre, such as Iraq was, or Vietnam etc then yeah, you eat, drink and sleep war.

Otherwise it is exactly like a 9-5 job, except starting earlier and longer hours.

In the case where the "war" is being conducted inside a small area such as Gaza, unless the IDF are going to remain over night in the hot zone, they will pull out troops and keep up the bombing and artillery over night. That way the IDF gets rest, but the palestinians do not... get it?

Do not try to tell me what I believe and what I do not. If that's all you got, then give it up.

Rolling my eyes buddy.

No in nam, when they were in jungle in nam they were on 24/7. When they weren't on duty, sure they went into cities and got the clap, but not during the conflict. They didn't fall back their weapons and soldiers to villages in the danger zone making them better targets.

Tell me, do you think soldiers moving back to the kibbutz does not increase the value of targeting that kibbutz? This is pretty much common sense and rhetorical btw.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Apparently you have no experience from within the military. If you are inside a wide ranged theatre, such as Iraq was, or Vietnam etc then yeah, you eat, drink and sleep war.

Otherwise it is exactly like a 9-5 job, except starting earlier and longer hours.

In the case where the "war" is being conducted inside a small area such as Gaza, unless the IDF are going to remain over night in the hot zone, they will pull out troops and keep up the bombing and artillery over night. That way the IDF gets rest, but the palestinians do not... get it?

Do not try to tell me what I believe and what I do not. If that's all you got, then give it up.

Rolling my eyes buddy.

No in nam, when they were in jungle in nam they were on 24/7. When they weren't on duty, sure they went into cities and got the clap, but not during the conflict. They didn't fall back their weapons and soldiers to villages in the danger zone making them better targets.

Tell me, do you think soldiers moving back to the kibbutz does not increase the value of targeting that kibbutz? This is pretty much common sense and rhetorical btw.

Are the soldiers there killing civilians?
Would you blame Hamas if they attacked the soldiers with a bomb and it killed the civilians?
Those are the only relevant questions.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Because the whole country was not safe... even Saigon. I clearly stated the difference between conditions of combat. Are you suggesting commonality between Israel and Nam?

Let me quote myself here, since you didn't seem to grasp what I said:

If you are inside a wide ranged theatre, such as Iraq was, or Vietnam etc then yeah, you eat, drink and sleep war.

Increase the target value... a kibbutz with soldiers? Hamas would rather strike civilians in Jerusalem. If they could. You talk as if the IDF were the preferred target of Hamas, which anyone older than 20 who has paid attention to Hamas' actions in the past would know better.

Talk about rolling eyes....