DNA Parental testing, one of the best ever inventions for men?

a reply to: generik
I agree, it is pretty shocking that a modern state such as France would prefer a system where women are legally supported to lie to their children and their male partners about who their father is.
Again, I am so glad that I'm not from France as that law would have cost me tens of thousands paying out for another mans child.

'For the sake of the family' really? A family where a mother has cheating sex and does not respect her man or her kids enough to tell them the truth about who their father is. Doesn't sound like a good basis for any family to me.

*Edit*
I would dearly love to hear the opinions of any female members of ATS regarding this obvious male-discriminatory law in France which allows women to lie about paternity without any recourse. A feminist viewpoint would be especially welcome and most interesting.

maybe to some extent French men take a cue form some old forensic science basics, where it is/was believed that, An A or a B parent cannot father an O child
a reply to: grainofsand

a reply to: Nochzwei
Sorry, but I don't really understand the point you are making, but you may find this interesting:

www.nature.com...

ABO blood groups cannot be used to confirm whether a man is indeed a child's father. Because of this and several other factors, it took the legal system some time to trust blood-typing.

For example, in a famous case in 1943, the starlet Joan Barry accused actor Charlie Chaplin of fathering her child. Although blood tests definitively excluded Chaplin as the father, the court did not allow this evidence to be admitted, and Chaplin was ordered to pay child support to Barry.

The Barry/Chaplin case did spur the passage of new laws, however, thus launching a new era in forensic evidence.

...the new era which is our current day DNA testing, which I'm celebrating in this thread, for every man in history who has unknowingly raised/paid for another mans child because a woman lied to them.

*Edit*
The more I've mulled over the world population and birthrate figures tonight then the more I raise a glass to what must be many millions of men worldwide who will be safer from those lies in the future thanks to DNA tests.
...unless they live in France.

originally posted by: grainofsand


Pity there seems to be no female members here who have any comments/contribution regarding mothers who lie to men about parentage. Is it a dirty little female secret which nobody wants to admit or something?

I posted this and deleted but, it is true. When I went through my divorce I told my exhusband that my kids weren't his and he didn't believe me. My friend laugh because that says good things about me.

So, no I don't think it's a secret I think that people mostly share good moments about themselves and negative moments about others.

That being said if we were a matriartical society it wouldn't matter so much who fathered the child. You men seem to want to have the cake and eat it too.

a reply to: Iamthatbish
Please do tell me more of this magical utopia which is the matriartical society you mention?
Sounds great but with little detail I would not wish to commit to anything without asking first.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Aural
Then how do you define trust? Known someone a few weeks, years?
Trust is always just blind faith that the other person isn't lying to us. We can never 'know' that someone is telling the truth, why do you think so many hearts are broken because someone has been cheating on them.Mine has been a couple of times and I was genuinely shocked that I hadn't suspected anything.

Yep I'd love to know exactly how you define 'trust' and and what point it is deemed adequate enough for me to enjoy sex with someone safely?

When I say you i mean people in general. There is not a specific time period but a certain amount of trust tests have to be done. In other words a person needs to have a record of being trusted to earn more trust with anything that could involve trouble of some kind.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Iamthatbish
Please do tell me more of this magical utopia which is the matriartical society you mention?
Sounds great but with little detail I would not wish to commit to anything without asking first.

While I don't by any means claim to have all the answers some things never made sense to me. Call me feminist from day one. If as a child you can ponder why do last names usually come from the male when you're only always certain of the female parentage 100% of the time?

Or as an adult, why do states have laws that don't require a signature from the male if the woman is married? This only came to my attention because my exhusband wanted a stupid name for my second child. The nurses waited for him to leave and told me how I could get the name I had been calling my baby for months. (Yes, my child has a normal name not something that would have him grow up thinking I was mad at him when I named him. )

You don't need me to remind you woman's rights have come very far. We were even labeled the weaker sex!

a reply to: Iamthatbish
That's interesting. Here in the UK, unless a father is married to the mother of a child then he has zero rights regarding the registration of birth and naming of the child. If an unmarried mother so wishes she can even decide to leave the fathers name off the certificate completely. www.gov.uk...

There are no laws requiring married couples to adopt any particular family name, and unless a couple is married, the father has no automatic rights over the life of the child - all rights are automatically the mothers alone.

www.gov.uk...

An unmarried father can only get legal responsibility for his child in 1 of 3 ways:
Jointly registering the birth of the child with the mother (from 1 December 2003)
Getting a parental responsibility agreement with the mother
Getting a parental responsibility order from a court

So you can probably imagine I do not recognise this world of mothers having less rights than fathers, in the UK at least.
It is actually the other way around in the case of unmarried parents, and it may surprise you but I don't actually object to that myself in principle, although I do think it sad when women abuse that advantage they hold over men, you know, denying access to the kids when they know the courts rarely enforce breaches to orders, and the legal costs of fighting it is out of reach of the average working man.

*Edit*
As a side note, up until the introduction of Section 20 of the Family Law Reform Act 1969, unmarried mothers could (and often did) refuse to allow a DNA test, denying that a man was father to their child, which effectively meant the end of any chance for the father to be involved with that childs life.
Yes, DNA tests, and legislation to stop women refusing them without good reason, have also improved the situation for men who want to be involved in their childs life.

a reply to: grainofsand

I grew up with my father having sole custody and my mother having visitation. So wherever my feminist side came from I do still know what a good father figure should be.

And I am struggling to raise my men without being too soft as well. To me DNA testing is for others the social issues of easing a family is what I notice.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish

originally posted by: grainofsand


Pity there seems to be no female members here who have any comments/contribution regarding mothers who lie to men about parentage. Is it a dirty little female secret which nobody wants to admit or something?

I posted this and deleted but, it is true. When I went through my divorce I told my exhusband that my kids weren't his and he didn't believe me. My friend laugh because that says good things about me.

So, no I don't think it's a secret I think that people mostly share good moments about themselves and negative moments about others.

That being said if we were a matriartical society it wouldn't matter so much who fathered the child. You men seem to want to have the cake and eat it too.

Well some women do lie about paternity. It happens. Crappy, certainly immoral, but it does happen. There are rumors about my paternal line not being what it seems. My mother never said a word but a few family members on both sides made a point of mentioning their suspicions (and some potential suspects) when I was a teenager. Also, my father's family always treated me... strangely. Both of my parents would deny it if I asked I have no doubt, and well... My dad's my dad. He raised me. Not perfect certainly but he was there and I have no doubt that if he doesn't know for certain one way or the other he certainly suspects and he still tried. That's worth a lot.

On the other hand, questioning a woman's sexuality is a convenient way to attack her while maintaining an implicit social deniability that you are attacking her at all. My mother is a strong personality who is not always well liked and my father's parents did not approve of the marriage because she was not of the ah... "correct" religion. Once rumors get started it can be like Pandora's box.

Also, plenty of men lie about having slept with a woman so that they do not have to take accountability for a child. I think that DNA testing is a win for either gender really. I'm not sure why the OP is so invested in making this a gendered issue and so preoccupied by women that lie about paternity. Men lie about it too. All the time.

So sure, "celebrate" what the technology has done as far as potentially clearing up some of these entanglements but the It Only Benefits Men Because Women Are Lying Whores stance is an sneaky attempt at promulgating an agenda and frankly, the entire "premise" of the OP ranks as some of the most disingenuous B.S. I've seen on this site.

originally posted by: redhorse
So sure, "celebrate" what the technology has done as far as potentially clearing up some of these entanglements but the It Only Benefits Men Because Women Are Lying Whores stance is an sneaky attempt at promulgating an agenda and frankly, the entire "premise" of the OP ranks as some of the most disingenuous B.S. I've seen on this site.

Ooh, thank you for your frank contribution to the topic, although I struggle to see why my slant on the story causes you so much apparent emotional distress.
I've never used the word whore or directed any of my comments in a way which relates to either women generally or as a majority - You imagine that, because my words have always referred to 'some' women.
I would also think it is pretty obvious that when my OP relates to a specific situation I experienced then my focus will clearly be on similar situations where other women have lied about paternity to men.

Remember, a man has never been able to 'know' that he is or isn't the father of any child, even if the female concerned is the only one he has had sex with. A pregnant female who has only had sex with one male is absolutely certain about who the father is. This situation was a one-sided street prior to the introduction of DNA tests, so yes, for that reason it is a specific benefit I see as exclusive to men faced with a woman who previously could have been cheating and no-one would ever know.

Now, I've explained that quite clearly so if you disagree with any of it please do share your calm and rational reasons why, but please, let's have a bit less frothing at the mouth and making claims of my intentions being "disingenuous BS".
I enjoy debate but silly emotional rants belong in a different forum to this.

Kind regards...now have a nice cup of tea

*Edit*
I have focused on the benefits for men because I am male and I'm interested in the specific issue of women no longer being able to lie to a man into thinking he is the father of a child which is not his, raising and funding the child through a lie.
Men do not carry babies, so it is a lie which only women can tell to men - why does that trouble you?
I'm not that interested in the benefits for women as a result of DNA testing, but feel free to start your own and I may contribute.
How about "Women who get pregnant after sex with multiple sexual partners can know the patronage through DNA" or "DNA tests make it easier for a predatory woman to gain child maintenance from a rich guy".
Pick your own of course, but it is certainly not misogynistic for me to consider the benefits for men from DNA tests which prevent a situation that could only happen to men - Unknowingly raising another mans child.
And as touched on in a post above, women are no longer able to deny a child is a mans in the UK anymore, again only something men could possibly be a victim of. It's not like a man could deny a mother is 'the' mother.

a reply to: Iamthatbish
I'm all for feminism, but I prefer to think of general human equality regardless of gender. I have a twin sister and I saw from an early age how unfair many things were for her just because she was a girl - I also gained a massive insight into the way female social circles and constructs work. Hell, we ran every year we were in during school, just based on the power of male/female information and shared roles in a dual gendered team, me fighter, her fighter, mutual spies and manipulators.

The way us men and women work together is amazing when we truly have equality, but even with equality we remain different animals who work best when we work with each other, Testosterone, competitive aggressive emotion, Estrogen, all emotion.

I've jointly raised my biological son to late teens now. Joint parental responsibility after a friendly divorce when he was aged 2, and three or four nights in a row with either me or his mother every week since. Both watched him play every rugby match together (new season starting soon), attended every school parents evenings/sports days together, shared school/sports/Christmas/birthday/parent costs together 50/50 and worked amazingly as parents. My best friend, the mother of my child. I've always backed her up in front of my son, and she's always been able to say "shall I phone dad now and ask him what he thinks?" if ever needing a 'bad cop' on the 3 or 4 nights he would be with her.

We have an amazing well balanced and happy late teen now but it would have been a much different story if I had raised him on my own. I valued, and continue to value, the influence of the mother of my child on me and on our son's life.

So yes, I love the equal contribution of women and men to this world, and this OP while focused on a male perspective, in no way indicates some negative feminist agenda, but only women give birth, so only women can knowingly lie to a man regarding paternity if she knows full well that she's had loads of unprotected sex, or knew she was already pregnant before having sex with a target man. Any man denying paternity if he knows he's had sex with the girl is always just hoping and clutching at straws, he cannot know he was not the father, but a woman can.
DNA has just provided a way for cases like that to be discovered if a man has doubts. An exclusively male benefit.

*Edit*
It is unlikely that there are many women in the world who have unknowingly raised another womans child because a man lied to them.
That is why this is a solely male benefit, as per my experiences in the OP.

As a woman that doesn't sleep around, doesn't believe a baby will keep a man and the list can go on I'm not worried about DNA testing. As posted above this could be a touchy subject.

Just look above at what the description of a father means to a child. I speak from experience when I say even being 100% certain doesn't keep a man from choosing to be a sperm donor.

My opinion is good riddance, not a real man, lets find the child a better role model. Children are people not a means to get money. Child support shouldn't be resented or used as a tool either.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
As a woman that doesn't sleep around, doesn't believe a baby will keep a man and the list can go on I'm not worried about DNA testing.

That is understandable as you would clearly be unlikely to ever require a DNA test to discover the biological father of any children you might be pregnant with.

As posted above this could be a touchy subject.

Why would the benefits of men no longer unknowingly having to raise another mans child be a 'touchy' subject? Surely both men and women would agree that any woman knowingly allowing a man to raise anothers child without telling him the truth is a quite an immoral thing to do? It would have happened to me without a DNA test, hence the specific focus in the OP.

Just look above at what the description of a father means to a child.

Of course, but that is a different issue to a man who has been tricked into 'being a father' by a woman who has lied though.

I speak from experience when I say even being 100% certain doesn't keep a man from choosing to be a sperm donor.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make there, or how it may relate to the OP topic. Sperm donor? What, like in a IVF clinic for couples struggling to have children or something?

My opinion is good riddance, not a real man, lets find the child a better role model.

Again, I don't understand what you are trying to convey here either. Who is not a 'real' man? One who has been lied to into thinking he is raising his own biological child when he is not, or one who does not wish to raise another mans child?

Children are people not a means to get money.

I totally agree, but sadly there is a percentage of women in the world who have had children solely to obtain a state funded rented home, benefits, maintenance payments from a richer guy, and any other unfortunate reason we can imagine. Or perhaps you disagree and think no women ever do that?

Child support shouldn't be resented or used as a tool either.

I agree, but I would resent paying if it was for a child I was not actually the biological father of. Again I remind you that without the DNA test I had, as mentioned in the OP, I would still be paying maintenance to the mother for another mans child, because she only told me the truth after I told her I was insisting on a test, as I legally could. I would have paid tens of thousands £££'s by now, for another mans child. It is why I am celebrating the specific and exclusively male benefit that is as a result of DNA tests: Women used to be able to lie to a man that he is the father of their child, but men of course have never been able to lie to a woman and force her into raising or paying for a child that is not theirs - for obvious reasons.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yes. It's great for men who are used to take care of a women and her baby. I'm relieved for you. No one should lie and use someone else like that.

As far as the kid, his mother is the one who lied to, took advantage of and then cheated on the OP. She needs to take responsibility for her life and how she may have messed up her son.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
As far as the kid, his mother is the one who lied to, took advantage of and then cheated on the OP. She needs to take responsibility for her life and how she may have messed up her son.

In defence of the mother in the OP, she was and still is a devoted mother, and her little man was not damaged in any way from our experiences, we both made sure of that, and either way, his life was totally enriched through experiences with me compared to the other parental suspects, including the loser who turned out to be biological dad...loser or not I still always tried to encourage him to pull his life together and be more of a dad than me, just for him and his lad, not me.
She latched onto me as an escape from the 4 other guys she thought could be the dad, and I totally understand that in retrospect. I did what was important to me, doing my best for an unborn child who could have been mine. She did her best with her own life choices regarding her unborn child, who only she knew was hers. I had to wait until birth to have the DNA test, but by then we were living together, in love, playing happy families, and I knew I would still raise unborn him/her the same as my own son for as long as I was with her, regardless of the test result when it happened.

The other potential fathers were drug dealers and people who did too much, so I will always understand her choices, I'm just glad I could make an informed choice through a DNA test...and I genuinely had a lovely 7 years of bringing a lovely little boy up, and giving him the same (and shared) magic n marshmallows start in life as my own biological son, who also enjoyed being his big bro while it lasted.

*Edit*
But without DNA tests, and UK law allowing me to insist on a test before having to pay any maintenance, I would have unknowingly raised another mans child, paid tens of thousands to her since we split up, and would continue to be paying right now.
That is an unpleasant thought for sure...and something horrible that only a man can ever be a victim of, and only by a woman.

I'm curious and feel the need to ask a question relating to some replies in response to my OP, and also some subsequent replies.
Why does it anger, or seem unacceptable to some ATS members, for a thread to focus on an issue that for biological reasons can only relate to males being victims of any female lies regarding paternity?
It is not my fault this issue is gender specific...I had no control over women ending up as being the ones who are capable of getting pregnant and giving birth...I can only live within the framework that I was born into as a human male.

Surely we all agree that men are much safer from lies today than a few decades or so ago...unless you are a male in France where women can still legally refuse paternity tests and there is no recourse in law for a man to get a DNA test so women are free to force a man to unknowingly raise another mans child...or deny him as the biological father to chase some other guy.
I'm glad I was in the UK when I lived the experience as stated in the OP.

a reply to: grainofsand
The term sperm donor is slang used to describe a man that only participates in the making of the child. That would also be applied to a man that does monatarily contribute to the child's well being but isn't emotionally there for the child.

Your questions are interesting, in that you do take care of a child but don't see that there are people that don't care the same way for another human.

I have had my kids come home and tell me classmates don't know what unconditional love is. You clearly understand how to give it. I imagine you would be just as shocked to hear there was confusion.

My opinion to questions asked may not be the precise answer the OP required because I'm not a man and my opinion may not be precisely what a mans would be. People lie and cheat and steal all the time. What I care about is, did the child eat? Was the child clothed? Is the child loved and do they know it?

I also admit to having a short attention span so that probably doesn't help.