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Liberals hate the USA?

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posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 09:55 AM
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It has come to my attention that various Bush supporters are thinking that Liberals dont support the United States. I even saw an avatar that said something like "Why dont you support our side for a chang, Liberal?!" This kind of thinking is what is making the political rift in our nation wider by the moment. I would just like to clear a few things up for those who feel this way. Liberals support America just as much, if not more than the right wing conservitaves. Basically, Liberals support the thought of our founding fathers. Freedom for all. Ideological tolerance. Embracing your fellow man as a brother, regardless of his/her beliefs. I have come to see that conservatives support America as well. They support the new America. Capitolism. Social acceptance of similar political views. Eliminating threats before they become threats. Acceptance of a mix of church and state.

What I am trying to say is I find it quite offensive when I hear someone say that I dont support my country because Im a Liberal. In fact, I am no longer calling my self a Liberal, but a Liberal Patriot. From the post I have read here on both fronts, I would start calling the Conservatives, Conservative Nationalist.

We BOTH support America in our own ways, and according to our own beliefs. Can we please stop accusing eachother of not supporting our nation just because our political beliefs are different?!

[edit on 12/3/04 by Kidfinger]




posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
Basically, Liberals support the thought of our founding fathers. Freedom for all. Ideological tolerance. Embracing your fellow man as a brother, regardless of his/her beliefs.


Freedom for all and dependence on the government.( I.E. excessive taxation and enormous beaurocratic social programs) You think thats what our founding fathers wanted? Liberals are the only ones that hold these beliefs about embracing your fellow man as a brother? Thats just not true at all.



I have come to see that conservatives support America as well. They support the new America. Capitolism. Social acceptance of similar political views. Eliminating threats before they become threats. Acceptance of a mix of church and state.


No.. not the new America... The America before Democrats changed it. Yes, I'll agree about Capitalism. Not sure what you mean by similar political views (if you could elaborate here please). I'll agree we eliminate threats before they become threats. Well, we just don't get as worked up over the seperation of church and state. But I wouldn't go so far as to say we accept it.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
and dependence on the government.( I.E. excessive taxation and enormous beaurocratic social programs)


I never said this, as this is not true. The only burden of taxation the Liberals wish to incure, is for healthcare, and not all Liberals support this notion.




Liberals are the only ones that hold these beliefs about embracing your fellow man as a brother? Thats just not true at all.


I have heard nothing but rhetoric of ethnic and religous(sp?) clensing from conservitive nationalist. This is why I made this statement. Most people who fall into this catagory would rather invade Iran and murder those who dont see things thier way. I would rather shake an Iranians hand and ask him why he feels the way he does.


No.. not the new America... The America before Democrats changed it.


The Democrates didnt start going to war with people because of thier beliefs. The Democrates didnt invade a country under false pretenses. The Democrates didnt try to intigrate church and state. The Democrates didnt change this country. The Republicans single handedly did that in 4 years.

Anyway, this whole reply, as well as yours, really has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. We BOTH support America, we just do it with our own beliefs and moral values. I think that at this point in our history, we cannot afford another war. IMO, we must seek peacful means of setteling our differences. Bush supporters believe the opposite, but we both have our beliefs that our opinions are whats best FOR THIS COUNTRY.

[edit on 12/3/04 by Kidfinger]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
We BOTH support America, we just do it with our own beliefs and moral values. I think that at this point in our history, we cannot afford another war. IMO, we must seek peacful means of setteling our differences.[edit on 12/3/04 by Kidfinger]


We talked to Saddam for how long? You still think we should have talked to him more? I'm sorry but I believe we talked to him so long he had time to get rid of his WMD's, I'm proud to finally have a president that shows some backbone. Lemme tell you this, people will think twice about screwing with the US again.

Sorry off the topic... but I had to vent a bit.

Do I think Liberals hate the US? Yes and no... I think some of them don't understand what the Liberals really stand for... Those ones don't hate the US. The ones that know what the Liberal's really stand for... I honestly think... don't like the US at all. Hence, they want to change it to better suit their agenda... They can't stand having people not dependent on the government because thats where they get all their power from. They certainly can't stand anyone believing in a "higher power," higher than the government.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by LostSailor]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:13 AM
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Its not the nation that the Liberals dont like, its the government. We dont agree with MANY of the current administrations policies. Hense the term Patriot for the Liberals, and Nationalist for the conservitaves. If you dont know what those two terms really mean, look them up.

As far as Husien goes, well, I fought in the first gulf war. I know what kind of person he was. You do realize that the United States has supported many dictators who were as ruthless, or more, than Saddam? Also, we had a dialog with Saddam about his WMD. He said he didnt have any. Bush thought he was lying. I dont know if you have watched the news in the last year, but he didnt have any. We went to war because our president was wrong.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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Liberals are the ones with any respect for the United States and the only ones with respect for the constitution. I am proud to be an American Liberal and hope to one day get our country back into some semblance of peace and honor.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Liberals are the ones with any respect for the United States and the only ones with respect for the constitution. I am proud to be an American Liberal and hope to one day get our country back into some semblance of peace and honor.


Amen to that sister, I care less what any body has to said, with some of the comments against liberals in this boards you can tell they will do excellent in under Bush dictatorship.

They will be the first one to point fingers at their neighbors and be the first one to said they did it in the name of the lord.


That is why tolerance is by pass in Sunday school.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I care less what any body has to said, with some of the comments against liberals in this boards you can tell they will do excellent in under Bush dictatorship.


These 'comments' are what made me start this thread. In particular, Thomas Crowns Offensive Avatar. Im about to make some modifications to my own


[edit on 12/3/04 by Kidfinger]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 01:04 PM
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Are Conservatives saying that to be a true American, you have to be one of them? Because Lostsailor said that those Liberals who, in his mind, don't hate America are "those who don't understand what liberalism is". That amounts to saying "they're good Americans who are simply misguided. Those who really know what liberalism is are un-American."

First off, liberalism got you guys the Civil Rights Act in 1964. It also got you regulations that make your water fit to drink and your meat fit to eat. Among others.

So does this mean that to be an American is to accept a plurality of ideas only if they fit inside the tent of conservatism?

I think this is a very slippery slope. If more people begin to suggest that liberals are un-American, then the next step is to form committees to question the patriotism of liberals in Hollywood, in public service, even in Congress... You form a definition of what a "good American" is, and make sure that those who don't fit that definition have a hard time getting influential jobs as teachers or journalists...

Orwellian? Or not?



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger

These 'comments' are what made me start this thread. In particular, Thomas Crowns Offensive Avatar. I'm about to make some modifications to my own


[edit on 12/3/04 by Kidfinger]


Actually I have never called anybody liberal or conservative in a nasty way and in the other hand I have been called, anti-American, traitor, and that I should leave the country, by the same people that call themselves religious and conservative.

So whenever they come and insult me I care less what they say, understand now.

I have never used the term "liberal" or "conservative" in a derogatory way.

this post is the first time I have refer to it directly.

I am against the administration we have as now and so far I will remind against it unless it does something to better our nation and that so far has been none.

Obviously you has not seen how bad it got around here with the "name calling" before elections, in which every "liberal" was a traitor and every "conservative" was a patriot.




[edit on 3-12-2004 by marg6043]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Otts
Are Conservatives saying that to be a true American, you have to be one of them? Because Lostsailor said that those Liberals who, in his mind, don't hate America are "those who don't understand what liberalism is". That amounts to saying "they're good Americans who are simply misguided. Those who really know what liberalism is are un-American."


I'm refering to the fact that most liberals are anti-capitalism (the ones who know what the true idea of liberalism is)... America is a capitalistic country, so therefore if one is anti-capitalism, they are anti-American.

IMHO.



Originally posted by Dgtempe
Liberals are the ones with any respect for the United States and the only ones with respect for the constitution. I am proud to be an American Liberal and hope to one day get our country back into some semblance of peace and honor.


Is that why they keep trying to change it and manipulate its meaning to suit there ideas?


[edit on 3-12-2004 by LostSailor]



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 01:27 PM
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Capitalism isn't a constant value that doesn't change. The brand of capitalism in the 1870's was quite different from that in 1940, which in turn was different than that in 2000.

Besides, like a lot of liberal Americans, I'm a social democrat, what some would call a socialist. I believe that social programs and capitalist initiatives can work in tandem. Does that make me anti-American?

If so, I guess I'd better get my Californian girlfriend up here as soon as possible, lest I be barred entry to the U.S. in a few years.



posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 01:33 PM
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I would say that some Liberals knowingly or unknowingly do hate this country and undermine it everyday. However I would also say that some conservatives are crazy lunatics.

There are good aspects to both 'parties', however I'm not sure that either philosophy would be good for the nation if it were carried out in its entirety.

Yes, Liberalism gave us Civil Rights, better working conditions, and safer foods, but those same things indirectly sent jobs overseas. Liberalism has also helped (many other things are responsible too) destroy the traditional American family. I personally don't feel their guilt-free philosophy on life is a good thing. I actually think morals and class are a good thing, sexual freedom is only good if it's practiced in private.

Want to know an interesting fact? In England, durring the Industrial Revolution it was Liberals who were opposed to regulating the factories so that workers were protected. They were staunch Capitalists. It was the Conservatives of the time who fought for worker protection.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:20 AM
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I have made this distinction in other threads before, and I guess Im goin to have to make it agian. Liberals are Patriots. Conservitaves are Nationalist. Now, sinse some people dont know the difference, I will explaine it. A nationalist believes in the government. They support the government with blind abandon, with no care if the gov is right or wrong. Its thier government, therefor it MUST be right, and all others should be converted. (That last part is my interpratation of how most conservatives are on this board) A Patriot is a person who loves thier country, NOT the government. A patriotis willing to change the government if it is not providing a good quality of life for the citizens of the country. Do you understand now Lost Sailor?



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 11:54 AM
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Kidfinger, as a patriot, you believe you are not getting a quality life in America...? What about your life in America is bothering you?

I know that tonation is not expressed on here, but I am not being sarcastic or anything. I would truly like to here what in your American life is so bad that you feel our government needs to be changed and overthrown, which is what patriots want.

Getting back to the topic, I would not put myself full-on into the conservative category, but I would say I am closer to that than anything. I know that liberals(patriots) dont hate America, but they are doing more right now than simply disagreeing. Not pointing fingers at anyone here, but by calling our president the devil and showing cartoons highlighting him as a full-out idiot are really hurting America in the eyes of the world. While Bush may not be the most elequent speaker I have ever heard, one must be extremely intelligent to gain the presidency. As much as I disliked Clinton he was and still is a very brilliant man.

These kind of things are what annoy me about Liberals, they say they are open and tolerant of everyone. Well everyone only means if you support their beliefs. If you do not you are a redneck, backwards thinking individual who needs to "wake up" and quit using those around you who are less fortunate. Also if one has money and doesn't agree with them it is because one is racist, selfish, and would love to see everyone without means die. Once again, I know this is not all liberals, but the majority of one I have ran into in my life have thought this way. I have been called a racist numerous times without saying anything racially provactive. I have been called a redneck, for doing things in the privacy of my life such as hunting, and I have been called an idiot for believeing that the word God can be applied to judaism, christianity, and muslim.

I guess my point is how can liberals claim to be tolerant of everyone when they simply are not. Once again not pointing fingers at anyone here, just giving some snippets of liberals I have come in contact with in my daily life.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
I have made this distinction in other threads before, and I guess Im goin to have to make it agian. Liberals are Patriots. Conservitaves are Nationalist. Now, sinse some people dont know the difference, I will explaine it. A nationalist believes in the government. They support the government with blind abandon, with no care if the gov is right or wrong. Its thier government, therefor it MUST be right, and all others should be converted. (That last part is my interpratation of how most conservatives are on this board) A Patriot is a person who loves thier country, NOT the government. A patriotis willing to change the government if it is not providing a good quality of life for the citizens of the country. Do you understand now Lost Sailor?


No I understood you the first time... But you have it flipped around backwards!!! Libs are for bigger gov. mor gov. dependancy on the gov. etc. Conservatives are for less government, tax breaks, less dependancy on the governmet.... etc.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by BrewCrew82
Kidfinger, as a patriot, you believe you are not getting a quality life in America...? What about your life in America is bothering you?


Read the draft to the patriot act 2. The fact that 40 years ago, A man could make a good living as an auot mechanic, have a house, a wife that didnt have to work, and an all around decent life. Try that now.



While Bush may not be the most elequent speaker I have ever heard, one must be extremely intelligent to gain the presidency.


IMO, Bush has proven just the opposite. I'd put my intellect agianst his any day of the week.



As much as I disliked Clinton he was and still is a very brilliant man.


Well spoken and much agreement.



These kind of things are what annoy me about Liberals, they say they are open and tolerant of everyone. Well everyone only means if you support their beliefs.


Pure BS. A Liberal didnt say "Your either with us or your agianst us." And I damn sure wont judge someone because of beliefs of racial orientation.



If you do not you are a redneck, backwards thinking individual who needs to "wake up" and quit using those around you who are less fortunate.


Well, you had my respect untill there. This is actually what bush would like YOU to believe. Agian, a Liberal didnt say "Your either with us or your agianst us."



Also if one has money and doesn't agree with them it is because one is racist, selfish, and would love to see everyone without means die.

Agian, more BS. Im so broke right now, I cant even afford common sense! This DOES NOT mean that I want to see every person of higher means die. Thats absurd. And I only think someone is a raciist if they prove themselves to be.



Once again, I know this is not all liberals, but the majority of one I have ran into in my life have thought this way.

Maybe they were conservitaves calling themselves Liberals to give Liberals a bad name.




I have been called a racist numerous times without saying anything racially provactive. I have been called a redneck, for doing things in the privacy of my life such as hunting, and I have been called an idiot for believeing that the word God can be applied to judaism, christianity, and muslim.


Man, I dont know where you are from, but I live in Kentucky. I know I have dealt with the Hick lable probably alot more than you. As for hunting, I see no problem with it as long as you are eating the meat. The religous aspects, I cant really agree or disagree with as I do not believe in organised religon. I dont think God had "Pay to Pray" in mind.



I guess my point is how can liberals claim to be tolerant of everyone when they simply are not.


I LOVE YOU MAN!

Looks like I blew that theory out of the water



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor


No I understood you the first time... But you have it flipped around backwards!!!


Lets examine this and see.



Libs are for bigger gov.

What? Why did this ever enter your head. Not bigger gov, just better checks and balances which Bush ripped away.



mor gov.

See above



dependancy on the gov. etc.

Is this the best you can do? The only Government dependant program that Liberals strongly pushed was healthcare. OMG WE WANT HEALTHCARE OOOOOOOOOOO.



Conservatives are for less government,

Ok, so why do they keep creating more of it? Department of Homeland Security?



tax breaks,


That ONLY benifit the wealthy.



less dependancy on the governmet.... etc.


Thats not true either. If it were, they wouldnt have crammed all the BS terrorist threats down our throats that never happened.


BUt agian, I digress. This is supposed to be a thread that basically says stop saying Liberals dont Love America.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 01:06 PM
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To add to what Kidfinger said, liberals weren't the ones who created the biggest deficit in U.S. history.

But what I want to say, really, is that it's not true that conservatives want smaller government. They want government to interfere less with the economy, taxation, health care and social services. That doesn't make government smaller, it just redirects more money to the military and Homeland Security, as well as providing the government with means to spy on people abroad (the CIA) and on its own citizens (the Patriot Act).

Doesn't sound like smaller government to me. It just sounds like different priorities.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
Libs are for bigger gov. mor gov. dependancy on the gov. etc. Conservatives are for less government, tax breaks, less dependancy on the governmet.... etc.


Can you show me where EITHER PARTY has shrank government? The Republicans are for welfare also but they want to give it to the corporations. Did the Democrats give us the Patriot Act? Are they the ones trying to tell people what they can do in their bedrooms?

I am not saying you are wrong about the Democrats they are indeed for the things you claim but other than a MINOR tax cut what have the Republicans done to shrink the government, get them off our backs, return us to the Roots of our nation?

Name ONE thing



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