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Liberals hate the USA?

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posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 07:14 PM
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I found an article on Liberal Patriotism that I think every one should read. Here is a quote from the article that I find quite refreshing.


On the home front, the liberal patriots argued that the way to ensure genuine and lasting solidarity was not to intimidate immigrants and political dissenters but to demonstrate the salience of the nation-state--i.e., the federal government--to the well-being of all Americans: E Pluribus Unum meet Quid Pro Quo. The liberal patriots were not jealous sentinels of the people's hearts. They did not regard local loyalties (whether ethnic, racial, regional, or religious) as anathema to national loyalty, or national loyalty, in turn, as inimical to global allegiances. Citizens first learn about loyalty at the local level, they recognized; without local education in obligation, national loyalty would be impossible.


Here is the entire article. It is a bit of a read, but well worth it


hnn.us...




posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:23 PM
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Amuk,

You probably shouldn't completely judge by the current inhabitant of the office, you might want to look back to other republican office holders. However, that doesn't change the fact that almost regardless of the program or entitlement demos try to make it larger and expand its reach (again comparatively speaking). i know what you are driving at and yes there is a better alternative, but at least the reps deserve a little credit.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by keholmes
i know what you are driving at and yes there is a better alternative, but at least the reps deserve a little credit.


For what? Name me ONE time they shrank the Government? I will give you an easier one name me ONE wasteful program they have gotten rid of? I would give them some points for not believing in welfare but that isn't true, they just believe in Corporate welfare. What is the difference between feeding a man who refuses to work and propping up a company that refuses to pay its executives less than 100 million a year and doesn't stay completive? The only difference is that it costs a 10-20 thousand a year to support the man and 10-20 million to support the company.

They claim to be for personal responsibility unless of course you use your freedom to smoke a joint or have a same sex relationship. They claim to be for personal freedom but back the Patriot act 1 and 2 claim to be for smaller government but are creating entirely new government agencies that don't have to answer to ANYONE.

Not trying to be an ass but what exactly should I be giving them credit for? I have lived through too many administrations and all have increased the size and scope and powers of the government.

The ONLY thing I can think of is the Democrats are worse, and I even have to hand it to them that they are at least fighting them on SOME things. The Democrats almost look good except that they aren't fighting them in the name of freedom, if these same laws were coming from a Democratic administration they would line up to pass them. The only reason they are against them is because they are from Bush.

The ONLY way we will see any change is to throw ALL the thieving bastards out of office and replace them with people that have read and understand the Constitution.


[edit on 4-12-2004 by Amuk]



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Not trying to be an ass but what exactly should I be giving them credit for?


Well, they got us the oil..er..um Saddam, and elections MIGHT be held in January in Iraq......maybe.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by Amuk
Not trying to be an ass but what exactly should I be giving them credit for?


Well, they got us the oil..er..um Saddam, and elections MIGHT be held in January in Iraq......maybe.


Well if we do get some oil out of the deal we deserve it. Better than France, Germany and Russia getting bribed to stay out of Iraq for OIL!

The elections will be held January 30th in Iraq, and it will be a great day for democracy!



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Carseller4
Well if we do get some oil out of the deal we deserve it. Better than France, Germany and Russia getting bribed to stay out of Iraq for OIL!


Why does America deserve Iraq's oil?



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
For what? Name me ONE time they shrank the Government?

Depends upon how you score that.if you go by spending as a percentage of GDP. Then one answer would be as I pointed out Reagan. www.cbpp.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.cbpp.org... look at table 4, total fed expenditures w/o interest years 80-88. If you look at non-defense spending then the government shrunk even more impressively. Clinton would also have achieved the same however he benefited from a more aggressive growth, and if you look the real drop started after he was stuck with a republican legislature to deal with. If you look at increase in spending with respect to the increase in interest...I believe you'll find the same correlation.


Originally posted by Amuk
I will give you an easier one name me ONE wasteful program they have gotten rid of?
full nuclear testing, without much thought. Im pretty sure there are a few more.

As for youre the corporate welfare argument I think your making.Im sorry you have bought into a democrat argument. The argument goes something like this identify something/one most will agree is evil (largely cause it isnt them) and then say that taxes should be increased on this evil entity to save us all. With regard to corporations, that is simply a ridiculous argument.who do you think in the end pays that tax. Ill give you three hints. It starts with Y. The middle letter is O and the last U. And the funniest part about corporate taxes are that they fall directly contrary to their other mainstay argument of taxing the evil rich, as corporate taxes fall squarely on the two lower classes. So if you take the two arguments and create the union, then every thing in America is evil and should be taxed higher.
I wonder if thats evil patriots or good patriots raising our taxes


And again as for increase in size of government I would argue that Reagan (government isnt the answer, its the problem) didnt increase any part of the government other than the military.


Originally posted by Amuk
. The Democrats almost look good except that they aren't fighting them in the name of freedom, if these same laws were coming from a Democratic administration they would line up to pass them. The only reason they are against them is because they are from Bush.
agreed, case in point no child left behind legislation that any democrat would have crowed about till the end of time. Im not sure if education spending has ever been raised that fast.however according to libs not high enough.

Again, amuk I agree neither is IMO close to the answer, however the reps (and demos like JFK) should be encouraged. However, youre dead on that both should be replaced.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by keholmes



As for youre the corporate welfare argument I think your making.Im sorry you have bought into a democrat argument. The argument goes something like this identify something/one most will agree is evil (largely cause it isnt them) and then say that taxes should be increased on this evil entity to save us all.


Thats the biggest load of malarky I have ever heard in my LIFE

Republicans touted that his tax cuts in 2001 were to benifit everyone equally.
However, If you look at the tax table for his 2001 plan on page one of this link, www-math.bgsu.edu...
you will clearly see that those who really binifitted from the tax breaks were the wealthy. I would quote some of the table here, but its in PDF. Read the link. And dont get me started about that bogus 148 billion dollor corprate tax cut he quietly signed into lelgislation just before the election, which he did aboard Aircraft One so there would be no opposition. Make no mistake, this president cares nothing for the little man, He is backed by the special intrest groups, and that is where his loyalties remain.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by keholmes

As for youre the corporate welfare argument I think your making.Im sorry you have bought into a democrat argument.


Not quite, hell I LOVE corporations, who do you think gives me and a hell of a lot of other people jobs? Speaking of Reagan remember the MASSIVE savings and loan bail out? BILLIONS of dollars. How about Tax breaks for companies that move over seas? Government subsidies to farmers? the list goes on and on. If we didn't tax them to death a LOT more would stay in this country.



[Again, Amuk I agree neither is IMO close to the answer, however the reps (and demos like JFK) should be encouraged. However, youre dead on that both should be replaced.


But the answer is in PLAIN dollars the government has grown EVERY YEAR as far back as I remember. Hell forget dollars how about just the number of people employed by the government? I am not sure of exact numbers but it seems like half of our county is drawing a check from the government in one form or the other. The dips under Reagan and Clinton had more to do with a growing economy than cutting the government. Just imagine how fast it would under REAL tax cuts, slashing unneeded programs, etc.

There are good people in both parties, but the parties themselves have spun out of control. I don't think either group "hates" America they both just have different ideas on where we go from here. Add the to partisanship and corruption and you have government that is not acting in the best interests of its people

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Amuk]



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
I don't think either group "hates" America they both just have different ideas on where we go from here.


Thats my point. I dont think conservatives hate America. They are just acting the way they beilieve they will best benifit this country. At the same time, us Liberals would just do things differently. If someone doesnt like Liberals, that doesnt mean that they hate America, it just means our (Liberals) views are different from thiers (Conservative).Im just so sick of all this "Leftist are destroying our nation!!", or "Liberals hate america but Love Saddam!" This # is getting Ridicules. I have to get outta here in a minute, Im off to class, but while Im gone, can someone please tell me WHY Liberals hate America?



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 06:49 PM
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I am a staunch liberal, but more so, I am a Marxist, and eventually, the two views contradict each other. Let me explain.

A liberal advocates civil rights and individual liberties above all else, correct? Well, what happens when one person's right comes into conflict with another person's right? The marxist in this case would advocate the course of action that would suit more people more of the time. The liberal advocates a shrinking of government, and much less government control. However, the marxist advocates enlarging the government until the government is the ENTIRE citizenry and un-privatizing all services provided by the government.



posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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10 hours and not one conservative can tell me why Liberals hate America? Well, I think that speaks for itself. Since no one can give me a single valid reason as to why the conservatives keep posting dribble about Liberals hateing America, We shouldnt see any more of these ignorance embracing post any more. If they keep popping up, they would be in clear violation of the ATS guidlines on posting knowingly false information. It would have to be false information since there is obviously not substantial proof. So there we have it folks. It is a bonafide LIE that Liberals hate America.




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