Spiritual Reorientation 10: The Art of Life

If with your question you meant to help the mankind on a grand scale, like making world peace, or mass healings or bringing a new religion to the world, the answer is that whoever really practice spirituality with commitment and seriosity will snap out of these dreams of grandor very fast.

I feel like I must pick this up again and maybe put it in better frame.

to Serdgiam

While this concept is popular among "spiritual circles," I am not sure it is an accurate assumption. It sounds a whole lot like the programming present in many religions, and that is that we can not affect change. Some even take it so far as to claim that making change only shows a lack of spirituality.

That is not true, I agree; we affect everything around us, intentionally or not. I know some schools promoting the idea that everything happening to others is their own karma and no one should interfere but that is a poor spirituality in my opinion. Change is universal and unstoppable, it is actually the only reliable and permanent thing about our reality, and we should always try to do the best we can for others, for our world and for ourselves.

Furthermore, we change it with everything we do NOT do as well. It is a matter of understanding how this change occurs, rather than thinking such pursuits are nothing more than a mere delusion. Then, we can use it to plant seeds that have a much higher chance of sprouting.

This is absolutely correct.
The delusion is the idea that WE KNOW what this world needs, and how to fix it. This is an illusion born from ego. Hell, most of the time we don't even understand what our beloved ones need and want It's a matter of understanding what the problem is before trying to fix it.

Following a valid spiritual path one understands very fast that the problem with this world is the human ego; the arrogant, selfish, greedy and ignorant human ego. No matter how much technology, advanced medicine, philosophy, comfort and so on you give them, the human beings will still be unhappy over something, fighting each other, wanting more then they need. Because of the ego. The world today, with all our advanced life style is not one millimeter happier or content or harmonious than 5000 years ago. The people may wear different clothes and talk into smartphones all day long, but they are still as selfish and tribal as their neanderthal forefathers. There isn't one solution for all; people must realize that the problem is in themselves.

So the point of a spiritual way is to help people helping themselves, starting with the ego. No one can do this work for us; Buddha couldn't do it, nor Christ, nor Gandhi, none of the big masters and prophets all thorough the human history ; they only can show people the way. There never was and it will never be one religion or spiritual way that brought all people together and helped them all.
The best a spiritual person can do for others is to show them the root of their problems and how to fix it. And still, the vast majority of us will not care and wouldn't even try. Because we want to change everything else except ourselves. We want to fix the world to fit our needs, instead to change ourselves, and the world will change accordingly.

That's the reason I said what I said. If we agree that one can only show others the way, be it by teachings, or by personal example, we can agree that the work (whatever one wants to do for others) must begin by fixing oneself. And to succeed one needs to drop all the illusions, all the concepts, all other ideas, take the journey all the way till the end. When one realize what a difficult task that is, will also realize how difficult will be for others to follow it thorough, and that helping others spiritually must be done on a personal level, one by one by one.....The truth is simple and is starring us in the face; but we are complicated and will not see it until someone else will point a finger to it. And even then....

This mean that we should give up all aspirations of helping and benefiting others? No way. We need to give up the idea of self importance, the "me better than other" concept.
For example, in Mahayana school of buddhism the main motivation for following the path is the desire to benefit all beings; bodhisattvas are realized beings that promise to not attain final enlightenment until every other being will attain it as well. They help in every way and form they can, material and spiritual, yet they do it from a selfless place. Without expectation of reward, or fame, without the concept that they must better than others. "If the hand brings food to the mouth, should the mouth say thank you? Should the hand feel more useful? No, because they are one." The desire to help come from the realization that there is no me and there is no other.

And this is the tricky part for a person still living in the illusion of ego. So even in buddhism the students are adviced to concentrate on their practice first while keeping the motivation to benefit in mind, until their realization is stable and cannot be shaken by ego's tricks. Is very easy to slip into illusions of self importance and to go astray, like we see many evangelists today thinking they are messengers of god on earth. They may genuine believe in their own illusions of helping others, but their are only fooling themselves and everyone who listen to them.

One doesn't need to be on a spiritual way in order to help others, in so many wonderful ways. Generosity, compassion they are not qualities existing only in a chosen few; they are universal and present in each one of us, and we can do much good by following them. But these will only be temporary solutions, alleviating the symptoms but not curing the disease. Like I said, we all see that material benefits do not necessarily make us happier.
If one wants to help others in a spiritual way then one must be realized by himself first.

originally posted by: BlueMule
I have nothing to gain from you, and nothing to lose.

I'm pretty sure gaining Aphorism's agreement wouldn't be a trivial moment for you.

originally posted by: GetOutOfMyLight

originally posted by: BlueMule
I have nothing to gain from you, and nothing to lose.

I'm pretty sure gaining Aphorism's agreement wouldn't be a trivial moment for you.

Opinion Club isn't about winning or losing debates. Opinion Club isn't about words.

My post didn't add anything..
Removed it.

a reply to: Aphorism

I believe that most of the post I wrote above to Serdgiam will address some of your points too on that topic. But what I want to ask you personally is this (again, for the sake of discussion, you don't have to):

Since I have no reason to stake claim nor believe in the immaterial, and everything I love, my family, my friends, my art, are of material substance, I can only apply spirituality to what seems immaterial, which in the case of the individual, is their actions. We are more than just material bodies, yes, but only insofar as we are capable of action.

Action is a process, not a thing. Hope you agree on that.
Of what substance is your love? Is it a material thing?

When I said that we are more than material, I didn't gave you fixed concept of what our spiritual part is. I didn't said soul or some other cliche, so let's give up this idea for a moment, so we can get to the bottom of it, ok?

Of what substance are your thoughts and feelings? Your ideas?
What about your spirituality? Is it a material thing?

Aren't all this things immaterial, yet forming an inner world for every one of us?
Aren't our actions ruled and born from this inner world? Where is the need for a spirituality, in the body or in the mind?

Just answer me this for now, and please don't give any previous thoughts or concepts, just your naked experience.

originally posted by: BlueMule
Opinion Club isn't about winning or losing debates. Opinion Club isn't about words.

Agreed. It's about honesty.

A father and son work together in the father's shop. Every day the father pauses working and goes for a walk along the creek out back of the shop. The timing of this is never the same, he never quite walks the same path, and sometimes doesn't return for hours.

The father never tells the son to walk with him, but the son goes along anyways. During these walks the son will often branch off on his own to explore, climb, and run as the father rests for a moment in the shade of his favorite trees.

The day the father is ready to hand the shop over to his son... he asks him what the most important part of running the shop is. The son lists things such as quality construction, honest dealings with the customers, keeping good records to ensure financial stability, etc.

The father sighs and goes for a walk along the creek.

a reply to: Visitor2012

So basically you know what you perceive your conscious self to be doing at any given moment. Outside of that, what do you know? So far your knowledge doesn't warrant writing pages of threads about nothing.

If my threads were about nothing, you wouldn’t be responding to them—unless, of course, you get a kick out of responding to nothing.

Apparently I also know how to get under your skin.

Once again, “You know nothing, but I do” seems to be your only argument. Of course, as you said, you are unable to put words to this “knowledge”, so I imagine silence is your next argument. I suppose I can wait.

I can appreciate the practice and Zen-like approach to (chop wood, carry water) which you seem to be so proud to display, but so far, in all these rambling threads about subjects you half-heartedly studied, misunderstood and clumsily generalized, I don't see any knowledge from you worth wasting the time to write about.

Yet, here you are, wasting your time. So, why are you so concerned about someone who knows absolutely nothing? You speak one thing, but your actions display another. This is considered dishonesty to some people.

I will take your word for it and imagine that you and others like you possess knowledge that I and others like me do not. Let’s divide men into these two imaginary factions—those who you wish to guilt into your “knowledge”, and those who wish to cash in on this guilt. But I do not respect your desire to appear the authority; I highly suspect it.

Just say 'I travelled the world, tried few different techniques, toured a few spiritual routes, read a few books but in the end, all I know is that my leg is broken' and call it a day? Why all the threads about nonsense?
And if you don't have any experience with meditation, and all you can say is 'I bet blah blah blah....' Why are you speaking about it? This is a constant pattern of yours.... When will it end?

Aah, and now you’re telling me what I know and what I should say. This is getting fairly typical of your responses, Visitor. The thought police have no jurisdiction here. You are writing to someone who sees no truth to your authority.

My writing will end with my death, but don’t get your hopes up—though I live dangerously, I am quite healthy.

a reply to: Aphorism

and i for one look forward to many more installments in this series...or however many installments you deem necessary. your perspective is an interesting one.

originally posted by: Aphorism

Aah, and now you’re telling me what I know and what I should say. This is getting fairly typical of your responses, Visitor. The thought police have no jurisdiction here. You are writing to someone who sees no truth to your authority.

It's also typical of your Opinion Club threads and posts. Visitor is just sharing his opinion, as you do, but you seem to be rebuking him for it. Do you rebuke yourself as well, for telling mystics what they know? If not, some people might consider that hypocricy. But, haven't you already admitted you're a hypocrite? And haven't you rebuked others for being a hypocrite?

Isn't Opinion Club fun? Opinion as meditation. The second rule of Opinion Club: Leave your facts at the door.

HEY GUYS!!!

stop getting personal here before the mods have to step in and shut this thing down. shake hands, hug, kiss and make up. please and thanks? i'm looking out for everyone here.

Re- wrote for decorum..

a reply to: Aphorism

If my threads were about nothing, you wouldn’t be responding to them—unless, of course, you get a kick out of responding to nothing.

Apparently I also know how to get under your skin.

Once again, “You know nothing, but I do” seems to be your only argument. Of course, as you said, you are unable to put words to this “knowledge”, so I imagine silence is your next argument. I suppose I can wait.

There's no skin to get under whatsoever. You're imagining a drama that isn't taking place. I'm here for my own enjoyment just like everyone else. Isn't that why you're here?
I never said 'you know nothing, but I do' that's just how you took it. My curiosity is satisfied, I asked you what you knew, what justified these threads, and I got my answer.

Yet, here you are, wasting your time. So, why are you so concerned about someone who knows absolutely nothing? You speak one thing, but your actions display another. This is considered dishonesty to some people.

I'm never wasting my time, I spend it quite well and I'm enjoying myself and our conversations. My actions are in line with that, and it is VERY honest. If you're not enjoying it, then maybe you should do something else, you have no obligation or duty here.

You're wrong, I'm not concerned about "someone who knows absolutely nothing" I just wanted you to acknowledge and admit this fact yourself and you did.

I will take your word for it and imagine that you and others like you possess knowledge that I and others like me do not. Let’s divide men into these two imaginary factions—those who you wish to guilt into your “knowledge”, and those who wish to cash in on this guilt. But I do not respect your desire to appear the authority; I highly suspect it.

Good imagination.

Aah, and now you’re telling me what I know and what I should say. This is getting fairly typical of your responses, Visitor. The thought police have no jurisdiction here. You are writing to someone who sees no truth to your authority.

So you see me as authority? Please don't. I'm just a regular guy. But you know, I'm deeply saddened that you're not enjoying this conversation. With all the time we put into these responses. A shame. I, on the other hand, have thoroughly enjoyed it. Carry on.

originally posted by: BlueMule
The second rule of Opinion Club: Leave your facts at the door.

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

So ?

originally posted by: Visitor2012

There's no skin to get under whatsoever.

Hmm. A thought occurs to me. Maybe Aphorism is operating under the influence of a stereotype. Maybe he figures that if he can get under the skin of an 'enlightened' person, then he puts the lie to their claim. Also, if he can outwit them. After all, how could an unenlightened person possibly outwit an enlightened person if they are all they claim to be?

Aphorism if you do have a stereotypical view of mystics, let me dispell it for you right now. The mystics you encounter on line are probably not living in a specialized environment designed for mystical development. They are balancing their mystical practice with the demands of modern life.

Higher states of mystical consciousness don't last forever if your body and mind aren't prepared to hold them. Mystical disciplines such as yoga are designed to prepare the practioner to escalate and maintain those states. That's a full-time job.

The mystics you will encounter on line probably can't afford to do that because their environment and circumstances won't permit it. So that means, the mystics you encounter on line will probably be in an ordinary state of consciousness. Just like you.

They return to modern life, instead of going to a monastery or hermitage or institute. So they live their day-to-day lives in the ego-state just like you do. The ego is the ego.

So you can provoke, outwit, outsmart an on-line mystic. You can get under their skin. It doesn't mean that they haven't tasted the unitive state. It just means they don't live there.

But even though the on-line mystic isn't in a higher state of consciousness when you match foils with them, it doesn't mean that their ego is exactly the same as yours. There are lasting changes made to the ego during a unitive experience.

Long-Term Effects
Wuthnow:

Say their lives are more meaningful, think about meaning and purpose
Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style
Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
Less authoritarian and dogmatic
More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient, intelligent, relaxed
High ego strength, relationships, symbolization, values, integration, allocentrism, psychological maturity, self-acceptance, self-worth, autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude, increased love and compassion

Source: csp.org...

a reply to: GetOutOfMyLight

Let me put it to you this way, Aphorism. If your philosophy of the body is correct, then it can only mean that there are benefits to mystical practices such as yoga and meditation that anyone can reap. So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I must admit, it looks as if that's what you're trying to do. We here mystics are just trying to save that baby you so callously dismiss.

On the other hand, if your philosophy of the body is wrong, then your entire idea of mysticism is incomplete. Your philosophy of the body would have to be merged with a philosophy of mind. That would mean there is much more to mysticism than meets the eye. And as you know, there is more to seeing than the eye.

You are a smart guy. I don't understand why you haven't taken advantage of the available scholarship and scientific evidence. We can tell you haven't. You are only using your common sense. What if everyone relied on common sense instead of scholarship and science? Where would humanity be?

a reply to: BlueMule

You are a smart guy. I don't understand why you haven't taken advantage of the available scholarship and scientific evidence. We can tell you haven't. You are only using your common sense. What if everyone relied on common sense instead of scholarship and science? Where would humanity be?

Working hard and getting along merrily in a much cleaner and quieter world.