Please Explain Israel vs Palestine

originally posted by: Thorneblood
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Here is one good example of where some of the hostility towards Israel comes from...
The Wire

A U.S. Senate subcommittee approved a spending bill providing $351 million for Israel's Iron Dome program, double what the Obama administration requested.

"It works," said Sen. Dick Durbin, chairman of the appropriations subcommittee.

The missile defense system has largely been credited with helping prevent a single Israeli casualty in the country's ongoing conflict with Hamas, shooting down an estimated 1,000 rockets fired into the country from Gaza with over 90 percent accuracy.

Its a pretty obvious source of frustration....

But using "internet facts", I get "The Palestinian Authority received $525 million of international aid in the first half of 2010, $1.4 billion in 2009 and $1.8 billion in 2008."

originally posted by: myselfaswell
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

Not currently mentioned so far is the shafting of the Palestinians.

Firstly there was the;

McMahon Agreement. Yes it was.

Shortly thereafter there was the;

Balfour Declaration. And I'm not too surprised the Sh!t hit the fan after this.

In a nutshell the Palestinians were Royally shafted and actually do have an axe to grind.

Kind Regards
Myselfaswell

Shafted...sure. But not by the people they are attacking. That would be like me attacking an illegal Mexican because I'm pissed at Obama.

originally posted by: Expat888
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE
Israel is NOT fighting for its life . Its committing systematic genocide and crimes against humanity .. israel has no regard for international laws and accords .. its a rogue state ..

OK. Sorry, but that is basically the rhetoric and pure opinion I was trying to avoid.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I was quite surprised to see so many stars within minutes of posting. What was that about???

There are a lot of people who won't speak out. What you said was a hammer hitting a nail on the head. Such a response would not be unexpected.

The Jews have done nothing wrong. The Palestinians have done nothing wrong. The citizens of Israel hold nothing I could blame them for.

The people in charge are diametrically opposed. It's a 'tiger by the tail' scenario. Anyone who looks, without understanding, becomes passionately embroiled. Just look at the way people here on ATS, who have no 'dog in the fight', are going for each other's throats ... like some member of their family was killed in the violence over there. The leaders hold powerful sway. That much is evident.

The cause is powerful. It's a fight to exist versus the right to land you need not share with others. Now ... add religion and shake.

There's a problem _here_ ... and what I took from your OP was "we all need to cool our jets" and discuss ... not pick sides and join the fray.

Enjoy those stars and flags. They're well earned.

a reply to: Expat888

Fun fact: Did you know that the international laws only applies for weak countries?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

There was a world war, for the second time. Lots of people from all over the world got killed. After the war finished, a bunch of people decided tha a group of people (called group1 from now) should be given a country. This group1 had a book that says way back in the day their god gave them some land. So it was decided to give group1 the land back. Problem was there were another group(called group2 from now) living there. This group2 thought group1 book was not true, and had their own book that didn't say the same things.
This caused a bit of a problem.
Now group1 moved in, and the surrounding contries didn't like this as well so attacked group1. War happened and group1 were the winners. After the war and ongoing to this day group1 decided to take lots(because the book says) of the land that group2 were living on.
Group2 didn't like this and still don't like this so have continual fought back at group1. Group1 didn't like this and fought back at group2. This contiunes for over 60 years, during which time group1 forces group2 into a couple of areas and build a wall around them and shut them in. Group1 has big bombs, group2 has little bombs.
Never ending war contiunes. Lots of people contiune to die.

Yep .. seen it firsthand far too many times over the years ..

Israel was helped into Palestine (in 47 or so) where they quickly forced the Palestinians out of their homes, attacked anyone they thought might be a future threat without provocation, kept taking land, kept taking land, Arafat finally agreed to just keeping a tiny 20 percent of the country. Israel didn't respect that and started taking more while creating laws that only apply to Palestinians while Israeli Jews enjoy way more freedom and respect. Israel now continuously oppresses the Palestinians and tries to usurp their land.

The Palestinians shoot off little unguided rockets into the desert so they can try to get the worlds attention so they aren't forgotten to be oppressed in silence and have their land taken and people abused. It's not religious fanaticism or any attempt to win, it's just to bring attention to their plight.

If that sounds one sided it's because it is, it's the truth. One of the most militarily technologically advanced countries in the world oppressing poor people in a ghetto prison where Israel controls their supplies.

There now it's explained.

originally posted by: ZeussusZ
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

There was a world war, for the second time. Lots of people from all over the world got killed. After the war finished, a bunch of people decided tha a group of people (called group1 from now) should be given a country. This group1 had a book that says way back in the day their god gave them some land. So it was decided to give group1 the land back. Problem was there were another group(called group2 from now) living there. This group2 thought group1 book was not true, and had their own book that didn't say the same things.
This caused a bit of a problem.
Now group1 moved in, and the surrounding contries didn't like this as well so attacked group1. War happened and group1 were the winners. After the war and ongoing to this day group1 decided to take lots(because the book says) of the land that group2 were living on.
Group2 didn't like this and still don't like this so have continual fought back at group1. Group1 didn't like this and fought back at group2. This contiunes for over 60 years, during which time group1 forces group2 into a couple of areas and build a wall around them and shut them in. Group1 has big bombs, group2 has little bombs.
Never ending war contiunes. Lots of people contiune to die.

Thank you...but I was aware of all that. I don't want to argue such aesthetics but will simply give my own opinion. Israel was placed there by other powers. I would personally be pissed at those powers...not israel. Then they waged war against Israel for being placed there and Israel fought back. After winning...they took some extra land so their enemy (now) wasn't only a foot away from them. They wanted a buffer and in my opinion, with good reason.

So while that is simply my opinion...it would not be a fact like "Israel invaded Palestine and then took their land". As I responded above, that would be like me attacking an illegal in the USA because Obama allowed them to enter our country and stay. I would personally be at war with Obama...not the Mexican. But again...opinion.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Israel was helped into Palestine (in 47 or so) where they quickly forced the Palestinians out of their homes, attacked anyone they thought might be a future threat without provocation, kept taking land, kept taking land, Arafat finally agreed to just keeping a tiny 20 percent of the country. Israel didn't respect that and started taking more while creating laws that only apply to Palestinians while Israeli Jews enjoy way more freedom and respect. Israel now continuously oppresses the Palestinians and tries to usurp their land.

The Palestinians shoot off little unguided rockets into the desert so they can try to get the worlds attention so they aren't forgotten to be oppressed in silence and have their land taken and people abused. It's not religious fanaticism or any attempt to win, it's just to bring attention to their plight.

If that sounds one sided it's because it is, it's the truth. One of the most militarily technologically advanced countries in the world oppressing poor people in a ghetto prison where Israel controls their supplies.

There now it's explained.

I don't think much more has to be said.... If you agree with the cleansing of Native Americas by European settlers than you'll probably agree with what Israel is doing, not much difference really.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Israel was helped into Palestine (in 47 or so) where they quickly forced the Palestinians out of their homes, attacked anyone they thought might be a future threat without provocation, kept taking land, kept taking land, Arafat finally agreed to just keeping a tiny 20 percent of the country. Israel didn't respect that and started taking more while creating laws that only apply to Palestinians while Israeli Jews enjoy way more freedom and respect. Israel now continuously oppresses the Palestinians and tries to usurp their land.

The Palestinians shoot off little unguided rockets into the desert so they can try to get the worlds attention so they aren't forgotten to be oppressed in silence and have their land taken and people abused. It's not religious fanaticism or any attempt to win, it's just to bring attention to their plight.

If that sounds one sided it's because it is, it's the truth. One of the most militarily technologically advanced countries in the world oppressing poor people in a ghetto prison where Israel controls their supplies.

There now it's explained.

Not a bad response. So now my question to everyone else here.

Is this FACT or OPINION? I was under the impression Israel only "took land" as a bounty of a war started by the other side. Was I incorrect and is what he said true that they continued to invade Palestine territory that wasn't initially provided for them?

Palestine was there before Israel, the land was given to the Israelis by another country or group of countries which was in no position to give it away to them.

What was that called?, The Balfour Declaration or some other dictate by someone who had no right to dictate anything anyway, especially didn't have the right to give land away to someone that was occupied by someone else, and really especially that it was done for some horse crap religious reasons.

I think Israel really should be left to stand alone and survive by it's own merits without outside help from any other country.

My personal view, after the research I've done, is this.

Israel has every right to be in the region. No because of some biblical fairy tale. Because they got permission from the Ottoman Empire back when they ruled the area.

After the British took over and public opinion of Jews in Eastern Europe changed there was a mass migration of Jews to "Israel".


This migration continued until WW2. After the war, millions of Jews had been displaced so they went to the centuries old safe haven and the Allies allowed them to make there own state...

Now here's where it gets shady. The Arab population had been cool with the "little Israel" type set up. Kinda like china town in America, but there were way more Jews then there had been before. So the new state of Israel began to expand. Pushing the surrounding Arab population out and taking over as the dominate force. The Arabs thought they were getting a Jewish "china town". Instead they ended up with way more of a police state. So the palistinians began protesting the expansion and when that didn't work extremist factions trained to fight the Russians began terrorist attacks. So Israel began military actions.



All the religious stuff is bs. This is really what happened and why they hate each other.

I think the reason it doesn't end is because Israel blames every terrorist attack on the administration of gaza rather then on the terrorist responisible. A foot soldier could preform an Unsanctioned attack and Israel will bomb a political leader of Hamas. IMHO you can't use military action over a criminal act. Just like the US did in Afghanistan and Iraq, it always goes bad and more terrorists are made then killed.

originally posted by: jheated5

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Israel was helped into Palestine (in 47 or so) where they quickly forced the Palestinians out of their homes, attacked anyone they thought might be a future threat without provocation, kept taking land, kept taking land, Arafat finally agreed to just keeping a tiny 20 percent of the country. Israel didn't respect that and started taking more while creating laws that only apply to Palestinians while Israeli Jews enjoy way more freedom and respect. Israel now continuously oppresses the Palestinians and tries to usurp their land.

The Palestinians shoot off little unguided rockets into the desert so they can try to get the worlds attention so they aren't forgotten to be oppressed in silence and have their land taken and people abused. It's not religious fanaticism or any attempt to win, it's just to bring attention to their plight.

If that sounds one sided it's because it is, it's the truth. One of the most militarily technologically advanced countries in the world oppressing poor people in a ghetto prison where Israel controls their supplies.

There now it's explained.

I don't think much more has to be said.... If you agree with the cleansing of Native Americas by European settlers than you'll probably agree with what Israel is doing, not much difference really.

OK...another question then. Are you implying that if Israel returned to its original borders that all the hate and attacks from the other side WILL stop? If so...they you have a very valid point that would change some of my opinions.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

The war wasn't started by the other side. Palestinians didn't have an army and Egypt was not prepared for war. That is why Israel struck Egypt. They knew they weren't prepared so what they played up as a victory against all odds because of superior culture and intelligence was actually just taking advantage of an opportunity.

This is long, but if you really want to know, watch it all. I did and found it interesting.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
Palestine was there before Israel, the land was given to the Israelis by another country or group of countries which was in no position to give it away to them.

What was that called?, The Balfour Declaration or some other dictate by someone who had no right to dictate anything anyway, especially didn't have the right to give land away to someone that was occupied by someone else, and really especially that it was done for some horse crap religious reasons.

I think Israel really should be left to stand alone and survive by it's own merits without outside help from any other country.

Again...I thought Palestine never existed? Was I incorrect? But I have some concern with your last paragraph...it sounds like "stop helping them so we can kill them". I hope I misunderstood that sentiment.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: jheated5

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
Israel was helped into Palestine (in 47 or so) where they quickly forced the Palestinians out of their homes, attacked anyone they thought might be a future threat without provocation, kept taking land, kept taking land, Arafat finally agreed to just keeping a tiny 20 percent of the country. Israel didn't respect that and started taking more while creating laws that only apply to Palestinians while Israeli Jews enjoy way more freedom and respect. Israel now continuously oppresses the Palestinians and tries to usurp their land.

The Palestinians shoot off little unguided rockets into the desert so they can try to get the worlds attention so they aren't forgotten to be oppressed in silence and have their land taken and people abused. It's not religious fanaticism or any attempt to win, it's just to bring attention to their plight.

If that sounds one sided it's because it is, it's the truth. One of the most militarily technologically advanced countries in the world oppressing poor people in a ghetto prison where Israel controls their supplies.

There now it's explained.

I don't think much more has to be said.... If you agree with the cleansing of Native Americas by European settlers than you'll probably agree with what Israel is doing, not much difference really.

OK...another question then. Are you implying that if Israel returned to its original borders that all the hate and attacks from the other side WILL stop? If so...they you have a very valid point that would change some of my opinions.

I am saying that is exactly what would happen... If the Palestinians started launching rockets after that, I would have no sympathy for them whatsoever, that isn't the reality of it though.

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

The war wasn't started by the other side. Palestinians didn't have an army and Egypt was not prepared for war. That is why Israel struck Egypt. They knew they weren't prepared so what they played up as a victory against all odds because of superior culture and intelligence was actually just taking advantage of an opportunity.

This is long, but if you really want to know, watch it all. I did and found it interesting.

Thank you...I will. After this thread dies down.

You have to understand the history of the conflict before making these generalised statements because it's the history of the region of Palenstine/Israel that is causing the current conflict.

Palestine before Israel was created was under British rule and was a peaceful nation, after World War 2 the British allowed the Jewish to create their own state in Palestine called Israel because of the persecution of the Jews during WW2.

Here is a picture showing what was Palestinian land before 1946 up until present day.
Picture

Now the Palestinian people didn't get any money for this land grab and they have essentially been backed into a very small corner for over 60 years, they aren't allowed to travel outside of Palestine and are essentially being "cleansed" out of existence. They are understandably pissed off.

Here's a link to the history of Palestine before 1948 when it became the nation of Israel/Palestine.

History of Palestine

a reply to: ArtemisE

That doesn't really justify why they needed to continue expanding until they had Palestinians in 2 tiny prisons.

The 67 borders should have been fine. They should have made Jerusalem an independently controlled but integrated part of the country and kept those borders. Instead the kicked all of the Palestinians out of their homes. The first few years Jewish people and Palestinian lived peacefully side by side, but the government kicked them out after the war with Egypt and gave their homes to Jewish Israelis.

They DEFINITELY don not have as much claim as the people who can go and show you where they lived just 60 years ago. I think the Palestinians have more right to return to homes they were removed from in contemporary times than the Israelis who claim a right to return because they lived their 3000 years ago (and that is what they claim, not what you believe about the Ottoman empire). I sincerely doubt this is what anyone that allowed them to move there had in mind.