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posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 10:44 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



(post by krash661 removed for a manners violation)

posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 11:10 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: KrzYma


this rotating light on the event horizon would be true if gravity would not delay the time.
I don't have any paper on this right now but the point is, bigger mass - slower time flow compared to space without any mass.

In this case, where the ship comes closer to the mass, the electrons move slower radiating longer EM waves.
Finally if it passes the event horizon, for the observer outside the time is frozen for the ship.
This means also no radiation comes from the ship, no light, nothing.




how exactly is time defined. Is time an inherent physical property of individual particles?
bravo you do hit some right notes every now and again.
Answer is yes



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 11:12 PM
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OK folks....lets take a breather here.

The personal snipes stop. For reference, should anyone have a question as to what is expected:

ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics.

If you can adhere to that, please continue discussing.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 11:24 PM
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originally posted by: krash661

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: krash661
Once again I don't have a problem with you questioning a source, but I can find more saying the same thing.
However once again you have failed to post a source which, according to you, is more accurate, and this I do have a problem with.
If I was pointing out a bad source I'd provide a better one.


if you want a source,
start with any accurate einstein relativity book.
or how about his actual papers if you can read german.
again anything i say can be found on any public publishing.
again start at,
arxiv. since you do not want to do the effort,
i'll post the link for you.
arxiv.org...
they're easily accessible. just look.
there's also a nasa public publishing,
ntrs.nasa.gov...
not only that but neurology and biology has public publishing.
SNIP!


edit on 8/15/2014 by bigfatfurrytexan because: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics.
Entschuldigen Sie bitte. Ich habe ein wenige verwirrung.
If tier 1 embraces gr and yet they talk about anti gravity, which is a non sequitur in terms of gr.
How does tier 1 reconcile with anti gravity? I know you said something about 4th state of matter being important for producing anti gravity. Can you elaborate on that, if indeed you are allowed to do so, I might add.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 07:28 AM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
The only reason light traveling from point A to point B, of any equal straight line from point A to point B distance, would take longer than the speed of light, is if the space from point A to point B it was traveling in was curved. But in this situation, you want to say the time slows down? Instead of, 'it takes longer because the space is curved'.


you need to separate two things, longer distance, where light takes longer time to travel.
and slow down of time, where the distance is the same as if it was without any "slowing down" but light propagates slower.

I told you how slowing time works for me here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDIT
have a look at how light is slowed down in a medium


and this is the try to explain what Bose-Einstein condensate is


so basically if all atoms in one volume of matter act as if it was just one single atom you get the 5th state of matter, Bose-Einstein Condensate.


edit on 16-8-2014 by KrzYma because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 08:08 AM
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phys.org...


The phenomenon of time dilation is a strange yet experimentally confirmed effect of relativity theory. One of its implications is that events occurring in distant parts of the universe should appear to occur more slowly than events located closer to us. For example, when observing supernovae, scientists have found that distant explosions seem to fade more slowly than the quickly-fading nearby supernovae.

The effect can be explained because (1) the speed of light is a constant (independent of how fast a light source is moving toward or away from an observer) and (2) the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, which causes light from distant objects to redshift (i.e. the wavelengths to become longer) in relation to how far away the objects are from observers on Earth. In other words, as space expands, the interval between light pulses also lengthens. Since expansion occurs throughout the universe, it seems that time dilation should be a property of the universe that holds true everywhere, regardless of the specific object or event being observed. However, a new study has found that this doesn’t seem to be the case - quasars, it seems, give off light pulses at the same rate no matter their distance from the Earth, without a hint of time dilation.

This quasar conundrum doesn’t seem to have an obvious explanation, although Hawkins has a few ideas. For some background, quasars are extreme objects in many ways: they are the most luminous and energetic objects known in the universe, and also one of the most distant (and thus, oldest) known objects. Officially called “quasi-stellar radio sources,” quasars are dense regions surrounding the central supermassive black holes in the centers of massive galaxies. They feed off an accretion disc that surrounds each black hole, which powers the quasars’ extreme luminosity and makes them visible to Earth.


I think this is interesting...
...and fitting into my "Picture of Universe"
edit on 16-8-2014 by KrzYma because: (no reason given)


(post by krash661 removed for a manners violation)

posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 11:50 AM
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originally posted by: krash661

Is this a back handed effort to tell us (yet again) that you want to quit this discussion because we are intellectually inferior to you? It is you prerogative to feel we are intellectually inferior to you -- and it is your prerogative to leave this discussion if you think we are a waste of your time; or it is even your prerogative to remain in the discussion. However, if you do decide to remain in the discussion, could you please answer the questions posed to you (questions that I found to be valid).


Here is a simple question that you have yet to answer:

You mentioned another state of matter -- something to do with antigravity maybe??? Anyway, you really didn't expand on the idea of that other state of matter, nor tell us what it was. Several people have asked you, but your response to the first person who asked was to (generally) say "I'm tired of the stupid people on this board, and I'm leaving".

So I will ask: Can you please describe to us the characteristics of this other form of matter? You mentioned it, then (for some reason) refused to describe it when someone asked you to do so. I'm not sure why you refused to answer (and instead resort to insults); it seemed like a valid follow-up question to me.

Also, as I asked before concerning your question about you and a mirror moving at the speed of light, do you agree that when time dilation is considered, the person and mirror moving at the speed of light (assuming they can move that fast, which is another issue), time dilation will allow the person to see his light hit the mirror at the "normal" speed of light. In fact, general relativity tells us that the person who thinks he's moving could just as validly say he was sitting still, relative to his point of reference, while the rest of the universe moved around him...

...So moving or not (again, relative to his frame of reference) the speed of light will always be the speed of light, and the light would always hit the mirror in the same amount of time relative to his observation.

Next simple question:
Do you agree with the above assessment or not? Do you agree that time dilation will allow the person who says they and their mirror are moving at the speed will see his light reach the mirror? if not, then why not.

The last time I asked you this, You basically told me that you refused to answer directly because I'm an idiot. I'm not sure why you take that route, but for the sake of civil discussion, could you just directly answer the specific questions people have posed to you?

editby]edit on 8/16/2014 by bigfatfurrytexan because:
civility, please


Edited again by me (Soylent Green) after the Mod snipped some of what I said and asked for civility.
Moderator (bigfatfurrytexan), are my new edits civil enough?



edit on 8/16/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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originally posted by: KrzYma

and this is the try to explain what Bose-Einstein condensate is


so basically if all atoms in one volume of matter act as if it was just one single atom you get the 5th state of matter, Bose-Einstein Condensate.



Bose-Einstein condensates (BEC) is certainly interesting.

While it is hard to visualize exactly what is going on with a BEC, the end result is something that ican be made into something roughly analogous to a "matter laser". Where a light laser is a coherence of photons, a BEC is a coherence of atoms. As Daniel Kleppner describe in the YouTube video you posted, a BEC is a state of matter where all of the atoms lose their identity -- thus they act as a coherent entity, as if they were a single atom. Laser light is analogous because it is a coherence of photons.

BECs have only recently been synthesized in laboratories, so there are no real-world practical uses for this state of matter as of yet, but considering it is both a superfluid and a superconductor, AND (perhaps most importantly) a BEC seems to display quantum characteristics but on a macro scale, I think we will find unique uses for BECs. For example, maybe in quantum computing? I think the macro quantum characteristics of a BEC could be useful.

Links:
MIT physicists create first atom laser

Matter Lasers new stat of matter


edit on 8/16/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 12:41 PM
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a reply to: KrzYma

Hey, the only reason they say 'time slows down' is because the existence of curved space in and near a black hole.

Because.

100 yards is a 100 yards is a 100 yards is 100 yards ok. 100 yards is 100 yards.


Say we are in the middle of space. And there is 1 pole at point A and another pole at point B.

The difference between the poles is 100 yards.

Now, in that distance of 100 yards between 2 points, (this is highlighting the difference between pure, absolute, nothing space, and the mysterious nature of gravity field) there can exist a black hole.

The difference between the 2 points is still 100 yards, in a geometrically true sense. If you were a ghost like God, and could take a measuring stick, and measure the straightest line between the 2 points, they would always be 100 yards.

But, now there is a black hole in the middle. This black hole, even if it curves gravity field, does not make the shortest straight line between the 2 points any more or less than 100 yards.

But, to light, which is somehow coupled to the gravity field, it forces it to not travel the shortest straight line, but it forces it to travel this black hole, windy road path.

This phenomenon is the only reason it is said 'time slows down'. Because the mysterious ways of gravity field can be curved, and we are used to measuring things in 'vacuum', or a stably curved gravity field.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi

But, to light, which is somehow coupled to the gravity field, it forces it to not travel the shortest straight line, but it forces it to travel this black hole, windy road path.


Yes, but isn't it true that this "windy road path" is actually a straight line through space, BUT space itself has been made to be winding?

As you view that winding path of space locally (i.e., from that winding path), the path would be straight.

A (rough) analogy would be that if I created a straight and level path around the Earth, always making sure that every meter along that path remained level relative to the earth (using a spirit level), that path would actually form a ring around the earth -- even though the spirit level told me it was level. It would be level compared to the Earth and Earth's gravity, but not level from an observer outside the earth.

Please be aware -- I'm not comparing the gravity well of the Earth to a black hole; not at all. This is simply a very rough analogy of local point-of-reference compared to an outside point-of-reference.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 01:37 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

Yea, I agree with Soylent Green Is People



The difference between the 2 points is still 100 yards, in a geometrically true sense. If you were a ghost like God, and could take a measuring stick, and measure the straightest line between the 2 points, they would always be 100 yards.


From the God's point of view...
imagine, distance is represented by colour.
God takes a "piece of paper" of let say 1 light Year length, and says
This picture in my mind represents distance in Universe

Black is small distance and white bigger distance.

If something moves inside this noise colour gets the same colour, there is no way to separate from it,
so if you with your 1m stick move somewhere, for you the stick has always the same colour like you, 1m stays 1m and so on.

From God's point of view its black, grey or white depends where you are.
But again, there is no way for you to know what colour your distance has, as there is no external reference.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 01:51 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi


Hey, the only reason they say 'time slows down' is because the existence of curved space in and near a black hole.


I don't really agree with curved space so...

I told you what I think why light slows down because of denser E field and not because of an longer path dou to a curved space.
Space itself can have different "scales of distance" like I said in my previews post.



BTW:
Curved space time is quite easy represented by this diagram

the rotation of the axis time/space to left represents the gravitational pull

edit on 16-8-2014 by KrzYma because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: KrzYma

Hey, the only reason they say 'time slows down' is because the existence of curved space in and near a black hole.




Lol. All of you are topsy turvy just as the MS is.
c = d/t.
Beyond the event horizon, time compression(not dilation), due to enormous gravity, is nearing infinity,
so c=0 and hence light or em wave cannot propagate.
After the big bang, when time slowed down sufficiently, the em wave could propagate and this is the birth of time as we know it.

Hope this will open the eyes of all that embrace gr and think that space is curved or bent.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei

a reply to: KrzYma


Hope this will open the eyes of all that embrace gr and think that space is curved or bent.

gp-b
einstein.stanford.edu...
edit on 16-8-2014 by krash661 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People


Yes, but isn't it true that this "windy road path" is actually a straight line through space, BUT space itself has been made to be winding?

As you view that winding path of space locally (i.e., from that winding path), the path would be straight.

A (rough) analogy would be that if I created a straight and level path around the Earth, always making sure that every meter along that path remained level relative to the earth (using a spirit level), that path would actually form a ring around the earth -- even though the spirit level told me it was level. It would be level compared to the Earth and Earth's gravity, but not level from an observer outside the earth.

Please be aware -- I'm not comparing the gravity well of the Earth to a black hole; not at all. This is simply a very rough analogy of local point-of-reference compared to an outside point-of-reference.



No, I am saying there is an unchanged geometric 3d realm that is purely nothing, but able to hold within it, 3d objects, which move, the moving of which is called the 4th dimension of time.

All that is 'something', moves in 3d space. Meaning up-down, left-right, back-forth. That 3 dimensions never change. It is abstract, and non existent space. But, it is what the non abstract, existent stuff, exists 'in'.

From this ultimate God like observation point, of 3d objects moving in 3d space. At any point in time they are a real geometric distance away from one another. But also, a physical 'path of least resistance', 'how long will it take to get there due to traffic' stipulation.

This is the road analogy. In a 'vacuum' there are only straight roads, one big straight super highway. Around gravity fields the roads are not straight, they are windy roads. The cars cannot travel from A to B in an equal amount of time. Because the nature of point A to B is physically such that, it is not straight path from A to B. It is a curved path.

From one side of the earth to another, the fastest route would be straight through the earth.

Because this is not physically possible, the path needed to be taken will be a curved path.

If it were possible, it would be seen that an object moving at constant speed, through the pure geometrical distance, would arrive sooner, through the earth, than around its curve.

This concept, is what 'they' are referring to as 'the object itself experiencing time dilation, when it is physically forced to travel a relatively longer path then is theoretically possible under different physical conditions, namely, the ones without the need for a physical curve.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: KrzYma

You dont agree with curved space.

How do you think the phenomenon of gravity works?

We have a mass A

We have a mass B

They are in space.

Mass A is 300 times larger than mass B (the numbers dont matter detailedly)

Mass B is consistently rotating around mass A.

Why/how?



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei
when time slowed down sufficiently.



Do tell, what is meant by such a statement.

Define time.

Define, time slowing down.



posted on Aug, 16 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: KrzYma


So you think a blackhole should be viewed as a material substance (like solid, gas, liquid, plasma).

And it is the way in which light interacts with this material, that (doesnt slow the light down, cuz light is always constant) 'directs light' at paths of angles and curves to delay its arrival, compared to if the light did not have to interact with this material.

So, is the phenomenon of gravity, also a material substance? This is one of the core problems I have always had, the nature of fields, what a gravity field means, what virtual particles means, energy field etc.

Is something besides mass itself, needed for the phenomenon of gravity? If yes, what the hell is it that is needed?



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