Could this be the beginning of the end for Europe?

a reply to: Rodinus

S&F mate ! Nice thread .

I think that in this day and age; we should be aware of the availability for all who seek ... Ala Internets !

This is what will help " Keep the Bastards Honest ! " ...

Deny Ignorance - even !?




ETA: Europe has been around for a bit mate. The teeth are there when it is boringly forced !! Lol !

a reply to: pikestaff

Yeah, I know.
Nevertheless, the parliament can change laws or propose changes. We should just get rid of the EU-Commissars and everything could be better. I don't like being ruled by someone who I didn't voted for

originally posted by: Talliostro
a reply to: pikestaff

Yeah, I know.
Nevertheless, the parliament can change laws or propose changes. We should just get rid of the EU-Commissars and everything could be better. I don't like being ruled by someone who I didn't voted for

The thing is... We DID actually vote for those people... well... In France they did because each and every single person who wanted to become an "active" member of the EU was stated on each polling list.

If my memory serves me right there were over 120 lists just for France...

I read nearly every single list before voting last Sunday.

Kindest respects

Rodinus

originally posted by: Talliostro
Blaming the EU for selfmade errors is just the easy way and going out of the EU isn't solving the most pressing matters in immigration with these guys, I guess?

To be fair, the EU (as part of the western centralized world) is responsible for many problems in the regions all those immigrants are coming from - and I'm not even talking about war refugees.
Another layer of all the "good" the EU is doing in the world.

a reply to: Rodinus

There is a fundamental flaw with our politicis in the UK and the EU in that we only get the majority of politicians - so enough to make a difference - in the major parties and we are stuck with their agendas.

The big parties in Europe are quite happy for immigration because it brings - whether people like to admit it or not - cheap labour for the chain stores (my local supermarket is run by Polish immigrants) with a minority of locals working there. and a range of other jobs. But how we have so many qualified students available for work and unable to get any form of job is quite beyond me, except that they want jobs with prospects and not Saturday jobs.

I do think its actually a good thing that the EU doesn't get into the federal super-state some seem to want. With superstates existing all around the world, inevitably we are then disposed into huge wars, especially over the shortages of commodities we all need, which is a tactic of the super rich to withold until they can make huge profits from the price increases they can then introduce. Also for the profits of the cowardly and greedy bankers who back both sides, safely sitting at their desks at the same time! I simply don't want to see people so easily fitted into this type of scenario.

It was a brave new world once envisioned but impossible to pull off when you compare a fully industrialised nation such as Germany with say Rumania. Personally having lived in Britain and its overcrowding having watched a programme on life in the slower moving Eastern European countries, I would like to see a little of that slower living coming over here.
I suspect many would like to change their fast and furious lives for a better quality of living and in a Federal State that certainly wouldn't happen and we would end up like the people in that very clever old film Metropolis.

originally posted by: Rodinus
The thing is... We DID actually vote for those people... well... In France they did because each and every single person who wanted to become an "active" member of the EU was stated on each polling list.

Well we did vote for members of the EU parliament, but we can't vote for the guys who really rule the EU. That's up to our beloved *cough* leaders, who decide if Martin Schulz or Jean-Claude Juncker or someoneelse should become head of the EU Commissars. EU-Parliament then votes "yes" or "no" for these candidates.
Normal John/Hans/Jacques don't have a direct say in this.. sadly.

a reply to: ColCurious
For me, the big immigration problems in France and the UK is a historical and "local" problem, because they did allow easier immigration from their colonies. It would be the same, if Germany decides that people from "Deutsch Südwest Afrika" can migrate easier and without boundaries. Our problem, our blame and not blame some third party, because it's easier.
I'm a little bit stumped by the polish immigration, because I can't see a direct plus for going to the UK instead of Germany, Austria, France.

originally posted by: Talliostro

originally posted by: Rodinus
The thing is... We DID actually vote for those people... well... In France they did because each and every single person who wanted to become an "active" member of the EU was stated on each polling list.

Well we did vote for members of the EU parliament, but we can't vote for the guys who really rule the EU. That's up to our beloved *cough* leaders, who decide if Martin Schulz or Jean-Claude Juncker or someoneelse should become head of the EU Commissars. EU-Parliament then votes "yes" or "no" for these candidates.
Normal John/Hans/Jacques don't have a direct say in this.. sadly.

a reply to: ColCurious
For me, the big immigration problems in France and the UK is a historical and "local" problem, because they did allow easier immigration from their colonies. It would be the same, if Germany decides that people from "Deutsch Südwest Afrika" can migrate easier and without boundaries. Our problem, our blame and not blame some third party, because it's easier.
I'm a little bit stumped by the polish immigration, because I can't see a direct plus for going to the UK instead of Germany, Austria, France.

Agreed...

Would you happen to have some "ahem"... *cough* syrup?

I did not want to really get into the "Illegal" immigration issue when I first decided to create this thread as did not want to create violent and 'off the spot" emotionaly related comments that woud ruin this discussion.

My sincerest thanks to people like yourself for keeping this topic so civil.

Immigration has to be looked and thought about in a SERIOUS manner for the EU...

Last week... or the week before... Google if you don't believe me... in Paris the largest Roma camp with over 1000 Romas was bulldozered and the Romas sent on their way... TO WHERE... and with what?... On to another area that will be completely devasted by the poverty that the EU has imposed on all of the "welcome to Europe" countries dictated to by the twats from Brussels.

OK... A marginal proportion of them managed to get the roughly... lets say.. "1500€"... (use Google) to go back to where they came from and set up a decent home on the backs of French Tax payers... but what about the rest who are forced to roam the streets and steal or pickpocket in order to keep their families alive? (backed up by the Roma mafia...)

Those countries that cannot (or will not), get their situations sorted out should just get to grips with reality... BUT as the EU is now there... lest all profit huh?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

a reply to: Rodinus

Things are looking decidedly... iffy at the moment from where I sit.

The European Union has its benefits and its drawbacks, as does virtually every seat of power, how so ever constructed. However, I think that the main problem with the European Parliament, is that it attempts to reconcile the needs of too many different ideals, held by far too many people. The other problem with it, is that its treatment of the sovereign nature of the nations under its auspices has been thoroughly lacking in sensitivity and understanding.

In my opinion, the only way that the European Union has any relevance or importance going forward, is if its role in deciding matters affecting the nations it is supposed to represent, is reduced to the point where the ONLY thing it does, is help arrange financial deals with banks and corporations, and represent the will of Europeans on the world stage, presenting a united front on the geopolitical stage.

Its days as a seat of the construction of law, to be applied to all member states as if it were there own, should never have come about, and cannot continue going forward, such is the lack of legitimacy it enjoys (what with the huge numbers of people being very upset about it, and the fact that it costs so damned much).

However, I think the problem with the EU is not nearly as concerning as the problem with politics in Europe as a general issue. The very existence of parties like the National Front in France, UKIP and the BNP in Britain, and the various facets of the xenophobic mindset currently appearing on ballot papers these days, is a testament to the failure of this generations political establishment to act in accordance with the desires and needs of the people they claim to represent.

Look into history. Before every unhealthy, insane, hate based societal regurgitation, there is a period where the government of the region in question, fails entirely to listen and to do as it is told (which in a healthy democracy should be like pulling out ones own innards, and then garotting oneself with them). It makes choices on behalf of its people, which do not echo the needs and beliefs of its people, it treads on the little guy, scapegoats the defenseless persons who cannot fight their own corner. Our current government has assaulted the poor, the disabled, and the old over the course of its current administration. Not only that, but linking in the European angle, the EU has turned around and told my nation on several occasions, that it may not deport people who ARE a threat to our nations security.

Now, you have a situation where both our nations government, and the EU government, are making choices on behalf of this countries people, which serve only to install tensions where none ought to exist, and make it impossible to remedy those tensions which exist for good reason. Essentially, the changes that need making to the way that government responds to the will of the people, are not in evidence in Whitehall, and they are not in evidence in the European Parliament.

Now, this would not be so bad, if there were alternative parties to vote for, who were peopled by wise, compassionate, caring, loving individuals, who genuinely want to see right done by all people, who sit up nights wondering how to do the very best they can do, at representing the needs, dreams, and aspirations of those who have elected them. But there are not.

The Labour Party are nothing more than a party with a brand name which lost all connection with the values and membership of the REAL Labour Party from back in the day, an organisation which for all its faults, and there were many, actually stood for what they advertised themselves as standing for, that being the overwhelming importance of the working individual, their rights, and the establishment and nurturing of systems designed to prevent a persons social status at birth having any effect on their life choices and the opportunities they might have to advance themselves.

The Conservative Party, have always been bad for the working class, preferring to placate the whims of industry, rather than to hold them to account in stern enough terms to curtail their most insane excesses, and protect the people that the government and big business are supposed to serve. Their leaders are terrible to a man these days, having, for all their birth earned status, absolutely no class about them what so ever, and rather being the most bull headed, pig ignorant swine I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.

Then you have the Liberal Democrats. Up until the previous election cycle here in the UK, they were seen as the third way. A vote for them was not considered a wasted vote, but a choice made in the hope of an end to the same old ping pong match that is the back and forth of parliamentary process. Their policies were sound, and aimed at doing what ought to be done around here, pulling the nation up from the bottom, making improvements at grass roots level, rather than fixing the top end, and letting all below scavenge the scraps that make their way to the lower reaches, a mistake which both Labour and the Conservatives had made time, after time, after time by this point in recent history. Then, they turned coat, betrayed the people who voted for them, and jumped into bed with the political equivalent of Satan, which resulted in the government we have now.

So that is THREE of the more "respectable" parties in Westminister, basically turning around to the voters at various points and making clear the following things:

1) Not one of us can be trusted.
2) Political parties as you know them will lie to you for votes.
3) We will never sacrifice the ability to gain power, for our morals, or for yours.


This has had the inevitable result, of people searching, furiously searching for an alternative to any of the parties listed above in this country. All that most people can find, is the Green Party who have no policy worth a damn on the non-environment related subjects, like healthcare, like immigration, like the number of jobs available in the country, and how to ensure that there are a greater number of jobs available for the people who are out of work to do....

...OR raging, foam mouthed, rabid hate mongers, who are anti-EU, have (whether they like to admit it or not) a xenophobic attitude toward persons from different faiths, and dislike automatically, anyone who lives in this nation but was not born upon it, despite the fact that like any nation older than the contents of a kindergarten, this countries population contains remnants of every nation on the planet, and even the persons with the oldest of lineages have something else than "pure" British stock in them.

Essentially, the only choices people are left with, are between the dysfunctional and totally aloof current political establishment, and the psychotic scat flinging bastards who sleep under swastika sheets at night, and get sexually aroused by the misery of others. Its all happened this way before of course, but we seem incapable of learning the lessons of the past in matters such as these.

No matter what ails a nation or a Union, the alternative to one tyranny, must never be another tyranny. That however, appears to be what people are voting for at the moment.

Here is the low down...

1. Sick of Migrant workers coming into a country and eating their economy alive from the inside out

2. Sick of Migrant families putting public services under such a strain that the natives no longer get what they paid for in taxes all their lives.

3. Sick of a European parliament telling us what is best for Europe and forcing us to stay in line when it's clearly to the detriment of Britain.

4. Sick of having to bail out failing countries in the EU just because they cannot manage their own affairs!

5. Sick of our own politicians lining their own pockets and lining themselves up for top jobs in Europe while totally ignoring their own affairs and their own country.

6. Sick of being told that I am a European citizen when in actual fact I am a British Subject!

7. Sick of the Liberal Lefties who want people to be dependent on the state while those that get off their backside and work have to pay for them all.

What We DO want...

1. Free Trade Agreement between European Nations....

End of...

Korg.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Very intersting and informing post with respect to the British point of view and your political landscape.

I found this part is particularly beautiful:

originally posted by: TrueBrit
(which in a healthy democracy should be like pulling out ones own innards, and then garotting oneself with them)

I just can't understand why you would continue with this part:

originally posted by: TrueBrit
...OR raging, foam mouthed, rabid hate mongers, who are anti-EU, have (whether they like to admit it or not) a xenophobic attitude toward persons from different faiths, and dislike automatically, anyone who lives in this nation but was not born upon it, despite the fact that like any nation older than the contents of a kindergarten, this countries population contains remnants of every nation on the planet, and even the persons with the oldest of lineages have something else than "pure" British stock in them.

You must know your fellow countrymen better than I do, but is this part really true? Are you saying that those who are EU-skeptic in the UK are necessarily also xenophobic?

I know this is what our media is telling us right now (-"the British EU-skeptics are just racist..."), but I thought this was just pro-EU propaganda to discredit their criticism.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

Well these 7 reasons are faced by every major western industrial country, be it the UK, France, Germany or the US. And only 2 of these reasons are really caused by the EU (3 + 4), the rest are domestic problems in the UK and its political landscape itself.
Like I said... the EU got blamed for domestic problems that weren't caused directly by the union. It's just easier to blame someone far away...

Germany faces all "your" problems too, so why does it cope better with the situation than the UK?

Personally this country has the immigration policy wrong,for too long it's been portrayed as race when it should be space

Do we have the space to increase our population so quickly,and can these areas they are located cope with the strain

I get the impression the last government allowed so many EU nationals in to increase their vote count in important areas

Vote wise in the UK, I guess it's like any country-we don't have a good choice!

And on Topic,EU won't hand over any power!

originally posted by: Talliostro
a reply to: ColCurious
For me, the big immigration problems in France and the UK is a historical and "local" problem, because they did allow easier immigration from their colonies. It would be the same, if Germany decides that people from "Deutsch Südwest Afrika" can migrate easier and without boundaries. Our problem, our blame and not blame some third party, because it's easier.
I'm a little bit stumped by the polish immigration, because I can't see a direct plus for going to the UK instead of Germany, Austria, France.

Could be true that their historic ties have an influence. I must admit I have no idea how their respective immigration-laws for people from those regions work.

What I meant was that "our" EU-trade agreements and trade tariffs are not necessarily economically positive for the regions (northern Africa for example) where many of those immigrants come from.
"We" are thereby furthering the cause for the influx of economic refugees.

originally posted by: Talliostro
a reply to: Korg Trinity

Well these 7 reasons are faced by every major western industrial country, be it the UK, France, Germany or the US. And only 2 of these reasons are really caused by the EU (3 + 4), the rest are domestic problems in the UK and its political landscape itself.
Like I said... the EU got blamed for domestic problems that weren't caused directly by the union. It's just easier to blame someone far away...

Germany faces all "your" problems too, so why does it cope better with the situation than the UK?

Pah German Nationalism!

Are you really saying that the EU has nothing to do with the volume of Migrants??

Are you crazy or just seriously misinformed?

Firstly and fore-mostly Germany is the strongest economy in Europe and since you ditched your currency and went all in with the euro meant your country was in control.... This is why Germany likes the Euro and the EU...

but oh Germany forgot the British people and the fact that we had already stopped your advances to control Europe not on one occasion but two previous occasions!!

We the British remained British and out of the Euro because we understood it to be a follies game.... Then by Stealth I might add the EU decides it wants to be a united states of Europe in all except name....

We the British people will not stand for this, We will not have our nation diluted by the stagnation that is Europe!

How many people British people died in the second world war to keep Britain British and to maintain our sovereignty!! And people such as yourself expect us to just give it up without a second thought!!

Rest assured Britain will leave the EU in all except the trade agreement and you can take your socialistic bordering on communist European Union and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

Korg.

originally posted by: Korg Trinity
Firstly and fore-mostly Germany is the strongest economy in Europe and since you ditched your currency and went all in with the euro meant your country was in control.... This is why Germany likes the Euro and the EU...

What?!

Right back at you: Are you crazy or just seriously misinformed?

originally posted by: ColCurious

originally posted by: Korg Trinity
Firstly and fore-mostly Germany is the strongest economy in Europe and since you ditched your currency and went all in with the euro meant your country was in control.... This is why Germany likes the Euro and the EU...

What?!

Right back at you: Are you crazy or just seriously misinformed?

Geeze Do you lot know nothing???

Economy of Germany

Germany is the largest national economy in Europe, the fourth-largest by nominal GDP in the world, and fifth by GDP (PPP). Since the age of industrialisation and beyond, the country has been a driver, innovator, and beneficiary of an ever more globalised economy. Germany's economic policy is based on the concept of the social market economy. The country is a founding member of the European Union and the Eurozone.[16][17] Germany is the third largest exporter in the world with $1.516 trillion exported in 2012.[18][dated info] Exports account for more than one-third of national output.[19][dated info] [20] In 2013, Germany recorded the highest trade surplus in the world worth $270 billion,[21] making it the biggest capital exporter globally.[22] Among the top 10 biggest economies in the world, Germany is the only country with a stable Triple-A (AAA) credit rating.

Read it and Apologize!

Korg.

a reply to: ColCurious

No... as with all things, it is far more complicated that one would like to believe.

Of course there are media machines out there, working against the criticism that the EU fairly receives, which is actually part of the problem. If regular complaints made against the EU by every mothers son, were not buried so consistently or ignored so uniformly, then it would not be "refreshing" to hear the rhetoric of UKIP and/or the BNP, or similar parties, because the genuine concerns of honest, hard working, people, people who by and large do NOT have genocidal thoughts, would be there for all to see. Criticism would be normal to see in the news, and people would not be shocked and pleased to see the examples of "criticism" that the right wing nutters are running campaigns on.

The trouble is however, that precisely because the media machine has churned away all the evidence of the smaller voices, only the loudest, and by far the most dangerous and sociopathic voices are being heard on the issues, and those include the voices of UKIP and the BNP. The BNP particularly ARE a party founded on, and by, racists. They are not a merely Eurosceptic party, but a party whose AGMs have been chock full of racist rants, which, no matter who brings it to the attention of the population, renders them utterly unfit to lead a sack race, let alone a nation comprising of a percentage of the human one.

UKIP are by far the most moderate of the two, but that is like comparing a person who will shoot you dead for a pound coin, with one who would require several tens of thousands to do the job. Neither is one with whom you would offer to share a cab home. The main difference between these parties, is that Nigel Farage, the party leader, has more charisma, and as an organisation, UKIP does an awful lot better of a job, at appearing like a legitimate party. This is despite having had various members get caught out in unguarded moments saying terrible things about all and sundry.

Now, no one is perfect, but I would say that getting caught with your pants down in such a manner, on such a topic, marks UKIP out as the following:

Incapable of keeping its members in any sort of order.
Incapable therefore of presenting a united front on the issue of racism, where they stand on it, what they will and will not allow to fly within their party.
Incapable of organising a crap flinging match in a sewer pipe, as a result of the above points.

If UKIP were not a racist party, then they would not have members who say anything even A LITTLE bit naughty about people who do not conform to the same racial and geographical origins as themselves, because, people who do that sort of thing are, as we all know, barely fit to breathe air, let alone be part of the process of governance of millions of people!!!!!

Look... I am a person with genuine grievances against the EU, and indeed my own nations government. But I did not vote for UKIP or for the BNP, because I respect the sacrifices my ancestors made to keep this country as free as possible from right wingers with a hard on for making life difficult for minorities. I would suffer a thousand agonies bought on by inefficient government, before I ever suffered a segregationist attitude to be adopted by its government. I would die a thousand deaths, rather than ever stand for that.

That is why there must be NO hate in an anti-EU organisation, no race hate at all, because the presence of even the merest smidgin, at grass roots level, or at party leadership level, renders every single thing that party does, as deeply questionable, and renders their motivations for doing it questionable as well.

People have been voting for these cretins because they feel disenfranchised, and let me tell you without doubt or question, they have been. But voting for UKIP or the BNP, is not voting to correct that. The people at the heads of these organisations know, that it is a lot easier to trust someone whose failings are clear to see, and when compared to the polished, but corrupt elements in mainstream politics, I imagine for those with no foresight what so ever, that this must be a deeply interesting thing, a politician whose foul heart is worn on the sleeve, and only thinly veiled.

It is my suspicion that the moment either UKIP, or the thrice cursed BNP get anything like a center of power built up around themselves, it will be curtains for good old blighty as we knew her, and the mindset that has been assaulting us ever since the bloody rise of fascism in Europe all those years ago, will come to Europe again, but this time born in the very place that was the root of its undoing last time. I do NOT want to see that. I want to see my nation moving forward in love, respect, honour, and compassion, not war, hate, ignorance, and violence.

I do not see a future that I would appreciate, in the hands of either the mainstreamers, or the BNP, UKIP lot. But I see NOTHING but chaos down the BNP/UKIP route. For all their blather about loving this country, they would destroy it if we allow them the merest capacity to control it.

Apologize, why?
And just fyi... Noone here loves the €, life got more and more expensive with it every year, in fact more than 50% since the € came along. Don't derail here with pointless Germany bashing. Why is the UK not faring as well as Germany? Both countries have and had to obey the same laws in the market and are controlled by Brussels beurocrats. The UK even kept the £... Shouldn't it be in a better state than the evil Eurozone.
Shouldn't your own government be blamed what it has or not has done with the UK?
Stop blaming others for failures made by your own people.

a reply to: Korg Trinity

I know very well about our economic strenght and the true underlying reasons for it.

My comment relates to your accusation that "Germany likes the Euro...", which is not true.
Many Germans actually oppose the €uro and would love to return to the D-Mark, because for the German PEOPLE everything pretty much doubled in price since we lost our own currency.

I guess you forgot that there is a difference between the PEOPLE of a country and their Government?
What would you say if we blamed you personally for the crimes your GCHQ comitted as accomplices with the NSA?
Your accusation that Germans want to to control Europe and thus your precious Island is just ridiculous.

Look at you, beating your chest as a proud Brit!... but GERMAN nationalism is wrong of course.



Laughable.

originally posted by: Talliostro
Apologize, why?
And just fyi... Noone here loves the €, life got more and more expensive with it every year, in fact more than 50% since the € came along. Don't derail here with pointless Germany bashing. Why is the UK not faring as well as Germany? Both countries have and had to obey the same laws in the market and are controlled by Brussels beurocrats. The UK even kept the £... Shouldn't it be in a better state than the evil Eurozone.
Shouldn't your own government be blamed what it has or not has done with the UK?
Stop blaming others for failures made by your own people.

You totally missed the point.

If your government are making everything expensive then that genuinely is an internal issue.... especially considering the success of your economy....

Germany Manages better because it is in effect in control over the Euro zone economy. If Germany were to pull out of the EU, it would collapse!

Germany is In control because it is in effect bankrolling the euro economy... This is why... The other countries have no control.....

And you ask why Germany does better than the other countries??

I think you people need to actually pop your heads up and see what your government is doing... because from the sounds of it they are laughing all the way to the bank at YOUR expense!

Britain I might add is actually doing very well both economically and globally. It is set to become the largest economy on the continent of Europe over the next 15 years...

Britain will be best performing of largest economies in 2014, IMF predicts

Britain will be the best performing of the world's largest economies this year, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) predicted as it conceded it had been overly pessimistic last spring when it warned George Osborne to ease austerity measures or jeopardise growth.

Along with the US and Germany, the UK economy is now expected to steam ahead as consumer spending rebounds, inflation remains low and unemployment continues to fall steadily.

In its World Economic Outlook, published ahead of its spring conference in Washington, the IMF said the UK's GDP growth would soar to 2.9% this year before returning to its long-term trend of 2.5% in 2015.

and this...

Britain 'will be Europe's top economy by 2030'

A rising population, a low-tax regime and insulation from the worst of the eurozone's problems leave Britain on course to overtake Germany as Europe's biggest economy within the next two decades, according to a study released on Thursday.

The annual world economic league tables from the Centre for Economic and Business Research (CEBR) predicts that Germany – for decades Europe's powerhouse economy – will have a smaller economy than the UK by about 2030.

This is why We want out of the EU! It is holding us back and if Germany has anything to do with it and it does if we stay in the EU we will not succeed in overtaking Germany when it comes to economics..

So you might say German Bashing... I say I am a realist that can see the political maneuvering going on and know that Germany's interests are to prevent Britain from growing.... which I might add many believe is an act of WAR!

Korg.