There is NO SUCH THING As a Dissapearing Plane in the 21st Century.

a reply to: Mikeultra

It's not a HAARP boat. The oil platform is the SBX radar which is used for midcourse guidance for the Ground Based Interceptor missile defense system.

And no, it's not responsible.

a reply to: GeminiSky

No it wouldn't necessarily. In this case it want sending any data back, it was only the keep alive signal to the satellite, but to send location back it has to be connected to GPS, which not all airlines do.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

No it wouldn't necessarily. In this case it want sending any data back, it was only the keep alive signal to the satellite, but to send location back it has to be connected to GPS, which not all airlines do.

So the engine was sending ALL telemetry data back to rolls royce...but was not sending the gps location? Is this correct? just does not seem right, sending all that info but leaving out location data. Im sure the altitude was sent....ambient temperature....but no location data? Sounds fishy...

a reply to: GeminiSky
Your title alone convinced me, as its common sense.

a reply to: GeminiSky

The only thing it sends back is engine health data. It doesn't care about anything but the engine health. The other system monitors aircraft health, and data such as altitude position, etc.

GPS position with the engine monitoring is an option, but it costs more. All Rolls Royce is really worried about is how the engines are functioning.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

The only thing it sends back is engine health data. It doesn't care about anything but the engine health. The other system monitors aircraft health, and data such as altitude position, etc.

GPS position with the engine monitoring is an option, but it costs more. All Rolls Royce is really worried about is how the engines are functioning.

I would really like to know where you got the information that the GPS is not already included in the Total Care package for the Rolls Royce Trent engines...and since when has altitude, and outside temperature had nothing to do with engine health? These things have everything to do with engine health, dare I say even geo location as well..You see the Total Care package does not only monitor part life and stresses but real time factors such as exhaust temps...

And when a problem is detected with an engine in flight...how exactly does Rolls Royce locate said engines, attached to said aircraft, which is in transit?

Ill take GPS for $400 Alex!

GS

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

The only thing it sends back is engine health data. It doesn't care about anything but the engine health. The other system monitors aircraft health, and data such as altitude position, etc.

GPS position with the engine monitoring is an option, but it costs more. All Rolls Royce is really worried about is how the engines are functioning.

Oh its alright...it seems I have already found it for you...here is whats included in the standard plan:

Monitoring systems technologies log the actions, performance an status of the components in the electrical and control systems. They collect data from various components, sub-systems or systems, which is then used to draw certain conclusions, based on algorithms programmed into the collection system. The monitoring collection system can be ground-based, while monitoring systems flying in the air, floating on the sea, or generating electricity on another continent.

All monitoring systems work on the simple basis of: Sense - Acquire - Transfer - Analyse - Act. The aim of a monitoring system is to maximise reliability and availability. A monitoring system will not stop a system from malfunctioning, but will log system data from which system characteristics can be deduced. This provides our customers with advanced data on the status of their system and data to plan maintenance schedules around.

The monitoring system collects data from all over the system and provides feedback at a specific location, this location can either be the control room on a ship or the control room on land receiving feedback signals from a fleet of aircraft, which are currently flying, or the generator set situated in on an oilrig. The monitoring systems provides us with the freedom of knowing what our system is doing, how well it is doing it and will help predict how it will react next time we run it. Rolls-Royce is improving its capability continuously to improve its monitoring capability and providing its customers with a higher level of in-service support.

heres some more...

Engine Health Management Rolls Royce uses Engine Health Management (EHM) to track the health of thousands of engines operating worldwide, using onboard sensors and live satellite feeds.

A corporate EHM team covers Civil, Defence, Marine and Energy which enables the Group to develop technologies and best practice across all business sectors. In the Civil market for example, the Trent family of engines is supported by a comprehensive Rolls-Royce EHM capability operated in conjunction with Optimized Systems and Solutions (OSyS), a Rolls-Royce company, and accessible as appropriate by the airlines involved.

EHM is a pro-active technique for predicting when something might go wrong and averting a potential threat before it has a chance to develop into a real problem. It is especially useful in industries such as aerospace where the results of a technical failure could prove very costly. EHM covers the assessment of an engine’s state of health in real time or post-flight and how the data is used reflects the nature of the relevant service contracts. Essentially, EHM is about making more informed decisions regarding operating an engine fleet through acting on the best information available.

link

You were saying?

a reply to: GeminiSky

From Rolls Royce

Typical monitoring parameters include altitude, airspeed, cabin air quantity, electrical power. Nowhere on the list of monitored parameters does it say anything about GPS.

It's irrelevant here anyway because it wasn't sending any data. It was only handshaking with the satellite, telling the system the aircraft still had power, and keeping the satellite connection open.

a reply to: GeminiSky

That GPS is not included standard. Which it's not.

Again, it's not relevant because no data was sent, so even if the GPS was hooked up it wouldn't have sent a position anyway.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

From Rolls Royce

Typical monitoring parameters include altitude, airspeed, cabin air quantity, electrical power. Nowhere on the list of monitored parameters does it say anything about GPS.

It's irrelevant here anyway because it wasn't sending any data. It was only handshaking with the satellite, telling the system the aircraft still had power, and keeping the satellite connection open.

Hold your horses now.... how about this statement..

ALSO FROM ROLLS ROYCE

EHM uses a range of sensors strategically positioned throughout the engine to record key technical parameters several times each flight. The EHM sensors in aero engines monitor numerous critical engine characteristics such as temperatures, pressures, speeds, flows and vibration levels to ensure they are within known tolerances and to highlight when they are not. In the most extreme cases air crew could be contacted, but far more often the action will lie with the operator’s own maintenance personnel or a Rolls-Royce service representative in the field to manage a special service inspection.

So in extreme cases the air crew can be contacted...how would they do that? Wouldnt they need to LOCATE the aircraft?

GS

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

That GPS is not included standard. Which it's not.

Again, it's not relevant because no data was sent, so even if the GPS was hooked up it wouldn't have sent a position anyway.

Actually the EHM Engine monitoring is included in the CORE SERVICES for the total care package, and is there are no further options which are similar in the OPTIONAL SERVICES section, as seen here:ROLLS ROYCE TOTAL CARE

a reply to: GeminiSky

The sensors are ON the aircraft. They're programmed so that in certain situations they pop up a message in the cockpit telling the crew there's a problem. In all other situation the message is sent to rolls Royce who notifies the airline.

originally posted by: GeminiSky
a reply to: Pilgrum

They are known just not to the public. And herein lies the dilemma. If you know that someone is lying to your face, what will you do about it?

Indeed, what will you do about it?
What, indeed. are you sandwiched by, after all? What if you knew the truth, and a gun was to your head? What if the gun was to your children's head? Surely, surely, everyone knows and sees these are the times we are living in, now.
Surely, no one thinks it is as simple as just knowing the truth and spelling it out.

There's a price to pay for that, isn't there? Should we detail that,and what would you suffer then?

Of course, in this age of satellites that can read your license plate, and Rolls Royce tech tracking its engines for the sake of profitability and exceptionality of the machine, and Boeing not building a single plane that couldn't be found because they simply built it and possess a certain responsibility, therein, not to mention entire militaries that have tracked said aircraft for hours in the air, and this is admitted, while doing nothing but observing….it's not possible that anything is "missing" any more than it's possible than any of us are "anonymous….."

I think there are plenty of people here who know the answers to that, and more, and may be suffering for even knowing it. I think we're just doing it all over so we can all blame a particular, and keep that particular paying the price for everyone else, and this "missing" plane is just another piece to that puzzle, and there is a baiting of those who know the truth going on, to get redemption for those who are guilty.
But that's just me…..
Tetra50

a reply to: GeminiSky

There are 25 sensors included as standard. The airlines can add more, and can attach the system to GPS if they choose to. There is no need for it to be attached to GPS however, because it goes through ACARS. If they need to talk to the crew they send a message back through ACARS to them.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

There are 25 sensors included as standard. The airlines can add more, and can attach the system to GPS if they choose to. There is no need for it to be attached to GPS however, because it goes through ACARS. If they need to talk to the crew they send a message back through ACARS to them.

LOL the system uses data from all aircraft systems, and its done thru a live satellite feed as per the RR website. The engines are already attached to a GPS because they are attached to the aircraft which has GPS and the EHM system not only monitors the 25 sensors but also the aircraft systems as well as per the site...does not take a genius to figure this out...so what point are you trying to prove here?

That rolls royce had NO LOCATION DATA from the engine attached to the missing airplane? By the way, ACARS appears to be one way communication only, which mean AIR TO GROUND only... and is done thru VHF or a Sattelite Link...

Either way it seems illogical that the airplanes coordinates are not included in the stew of other telemetry data, especially if in emergency's 2 way communication occurs with the air crew...

GS

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: GeminiSky
a reply to: Pilgrum

They are known just not to the public. And herein lies the dilemma. If you know that someone is lying to your face, what will you do about it?

Indeed, what will you do about it?
What, indeed. are you sandwiched by, after all? What if you knew the truth, and a gun was to your head? What if the gun was to your children's head? Surely, surely, everyone knows and sees these are the times we are living in, now.
Surely, no one thinks it is as simple as just knowing the truth and spelling it out.

There's a price to pay for that, isn't there? Should we detail that,and what would you suffer then?

Of course, in this age of satellites that can read your license plate, and Rolls Royce tech tracking its engines for the sake of profitability and exceptionality of the machine, and Boeing not building a single plane that couldn't be found because they simply built it and possess a certain responsibility, therein, not to mention entire militaries that have tracked said aircraft for hours in the air, and this is admitted, while doing nothing but observing….it's not possible that anything is "missing" any more than it's possible than any of us are "anonymous….."

I think there are plenty of people here who know the answers to that, and more, and may be suffering for even knowing it. I think we're just doing it all over so we can all blame a particular, and keep that particular paying the price for everyone else, and this "missing" plane is just another piece to that puzzle, and there is a baiting of those who know the truth going on, to get redemption for those who are guilty.
But that's just me…..
Tetra50

That last line...the baiting of those who know the truth...in order to get redemption for the guilty....i don't know why...but that really struck a chord with me...

GS

a reply to: GeminiSky

ACARS is two way. Ground sends messages through it all the time.

You need to go back and try again.

From the Rolls Royce website:

EHM uses a range of sensors strategically positioned throughout the engine to record key technical parameters several times each flight. The EHM sensors in aero engines monitor numerous critical engine characteristics such as temperatures, pressures, speeds, flows and vibration levels to ensure they are within known tolerances and to highlight when they are not. In the most extreme cases air crew could be contacted, but far more often the action will lie with the operator’s own maintenance personnel or a Rolls-Royce service representative in the field to manage a special service inspection.

It doesn't say anything about the ENGINE Health Management System monitoring every system on the plane. Why would it, since Rolls Royce didn't build anything but the engines. They aren't going to monitor anything but the engines.

For the third or fourth time, this is completely irrelevant, because no data was sent after ACARS shut down, other than the keep alive signal the plane sends as long as the engines are running.

Any communication from Rolls Royce to the crew goes through ACARS. ACARS only goes to the plane with that unique identifier.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: GeminiSky

ACARS is two way. Ground sends messages through it all the time.

You need to go back and try again.

From the Rolls Royce website:

EHM uses a range of sensors strategically positioned throughout the engine to record key technical parameters several times each flight. The EHM sensors in aero engines monitor numerous critical engine characteristics such as temperatures, pressures, speeds, flows and vibration levels to ensure they are within known tolerances and to highlight when they are not. In the most extreme cases air crew could be contacted, but far more often the action will lie with the operator’s own maintenance personnel or a Rolls-Royce service representative in the field to manage a special service inspection.

It doesn't say anything about the ENGINE Health Management System monitoring every system on the plane. Why would it, since Rolls Royce didn't build anything but the engines. They aren't going to monitor anything but the engines.

For the third or fourth time, this is completely irrelevant, because no data was sent after ACARS shut down, other than the keep alive signal the plane sends as long as the engines are running.

It is? Could you please provide the link stating that the ACARS receives ground messages "all the time" Id love to research this system further...where are you getting this information? And also in what format are these messages, and how are they delivered to the cockpit?

Are they SMS messages or possibly thru google hangouts? (If so these are truly next gen engines)

GS

a reply to: GeminiSky

How do you think the airline sends messages to the crew? Its not through radio.

ACARS

a reply to: Zaphod58

Ah i must have been thinking of another system...touche...lol

For some reason I confused this with a proprietary engine only comm sys...

now I did find something else when looking at your link and jumping back to google...

First things first. What is ACARS?

ACARS stands for Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System. It's a way for planes to relay information about their engines and other systems back to ground stations so that repairs can be made more efficiently. This happens mostly automatically, though the system can be set up to support manual text messaging between pilots and other aircraft, or between pilots and the ground.

Okay. And Malaysian officials say ACARS failed before the co-pilot's last words?

That part isn't so clear. We do know that ACARS sent an update containing data about MH370's systems at 1:07 a.m., shortly before the co-pilot last spoke. Then, half an hour later, ACARS was supposed to transmit another update, but never did, according to Malaysia Airlines's CEO. So we know that ACARS failed sometime between 1:07 a.m. and 1:37 a.m. — for context, the flight's transponder fell silent at 1:21 a.m. — but it's hard to say with any greater precision than that.

I've heard that a satellite detected MH370 after the plane went dark. If the flight's communications were down, what was talking to the satellite?

The short answer? ACARS.

But you said ACARS had been disabled.

ACARS was disabled. But the satellite equipment it uses hadn't been. It had been responding to "pings" from a satellite that, at a minimum, tells investigators the plane was still up and running. Others have called this activity a digital "handshake."

"You have to see these two things at two different layers," said David Cenciotti, an aviation writer based in Rome. "At the higher one you have ACARS with all the series of messages that can be exchanged between the plane and the receiving station on VHF, HF or SATCOM.

At the lower layer you have the network that is used to deliver these messages: pings are used to check the status of the underlying network." No information gets exchanged in a ping — it's simply a way for one entity to make sure that the other is there.

If somebody had turned ACARS off, why didn't the pings stop then as well? Disabling the transmission of engine performance data and other information may be as simple as flipping a switch. But to stop the pings from occurring, you'd have to dig around in the guts of the plane itself, said one ACARS expert who asked for anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak to the public.

"The antenna is on top of the aircraft, so it can't be reached," the expert said. "And secondly — think of it like a fuse box. The fuse box for the power — to disable that you'd have to open up the floor, go down and find the correct switches and cables and disable that. For a lot of pilots, they don't even know that that's there."

LINK

The rabbit hole gets deeper it seems....

GS