Faith or Works or Both?

"I realize that this is an argument that people make, but it isn't one taught by the Bible, and that includes the verse in Romans, which is comparing two different kingdoms, and is not a lecture on the process of earning sin guilt or paying for such."

Yeah... no. That is the argument that the Bible makes, and I just cited the verse. You either don't understand or aren't even aware of some of the most important and simple Christians beliefs taken straight from the Bible and have demonstrated that you are not qualified to claim any kind of knowledge on this subject, let alone telling Christians their beliefs are wrong. "The wages for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." How could you take that to mean anything other than that we have been given the gift of eternal life through Jesus despite deserving death because of our sins? Every Christian demonization believes that. You are changing fundamental Christian beliefs and claiming that people are wrong for disagreeing with you, hilarious.

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

How could you take that to mean anything other than that we have been given the gift of eternal life through Jesus despite deserving death because of our sins.

Very easily because it doesn't say that.
To start with, it doesn't say that we are given eternal life in the past tense.
And it is not even a good translation because there is a Greek word for "free gift" that Paul could have used, but he didn't. He uses the same word that he used in 1 Corinthians to talk about the charisma of the spirit, or spiritual gift, like, for example, prophecy, which everyone is not given but is a thing that hypothetically is available that God can grant according to His will.
If you read the context, you see that Paul is employing a rhetorical device, using imagery to make a comparison between two systems, one of the Kingdom of the World, and the other of God's kingdom, using the Roman imperial system, which was well known to his contemporaries, as his model for the world, which he calls "Sin".

Every Christian denomination believes that. You are changing fundamental Christian beliefs and claiming that people are wrong for disagreeing with you, hilarious.

I don't think "every denomination" interprets that verse that way.
I doubt that this is built into any major church's official doctrine unless it is some sort of independent, non-denominational church.
Anyway, the people who write bible commentaries that are widely accepted by Christian ministers do not interpret it that way because they are knowledgeable enough about Paul's writings to see the rhetoric of his argument and the point that he is getting at.

reply to post by jmdou reaewey60


You don't think that any major Christian denomination believes that Jesus died to take away our punishment for sins? You mean aside from the Catholic Church, every major branch of Protestantism, eastern Orthodox, Mormonism, etc? I'll cite the Bible verse again because I'm not sure you read it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

You don't think that any major Christian denomination believes that Jesus died to take away our punishment for sins?

I never denied that, what I deny is your simplistic theory on the mechanism that brings that goal about.

I'll cite the Bible verse again because I'm not sure you read it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What you are doing is making up a new definition for "wages", claiming that it really means an accumulated debt that somehow needs to be paid, when the verse is really part of a bigger analogy that means nothing of the kind.
I already explained it, so what you need to do is open up your Bible to chapter 6 of the book of Romans, and start at verse 19 , where he says "I am using an example from everyday life . . ." where the analogy starts, and he tells you right there, that is what he is doing.
He is explaining something by using something everyone living within the Roman Empire at that time very well understood.
To take that commonly understood simple fact, then turning it up side down, can only serve in missing the point that Paul was trying to make.
People do that, I have heard it on this forum, at church, and from the mouth of my own relatives, but it is something beat into people by repetition to accept, without ever really understanding it, all for the purpose of supporting a false theory of an artificial concept of the absolving of sins by decree.
The hard fact is that the way to absolve one of sins is to not sin, which requires true Christianity, and not a theory with an instant solution.

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

I'll cite the Bible verse again because I'm not sure you read it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Part 2 of my reply, being a quote from an actual commentary that is old and in the public domain, by a Protestant biblical scholar, in Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, which is presented below the verse, on Biblehub.

The Greek word signifies soldiers' wages; see Luke 3:14 and in

"At which time Simon rose up, and fought for his nation, and spent much of his own substance, and armed the valiant men of his nation and gave them wages,'' (1 Maccabees 14:32)

Sin is represented as a king, a mighty monarch, a tyrannical prince; sinners are his subjects and vassals, his servants and soldiers, who fight under him, and for him, and all the wages they must expect from him is death. So the word is interpreted in the Glossary, , "soldiers' wages"; and so it is used by the Jewish writers, being adopted into their language; of a king, they say (a), that he should not multiply to himself gold and silver more than to pay which they (b) interpret by , "the hire of armies", or the wages of soldiers for a whole year, who go in and out with him all the year; so that it denotes wages due, and paid after a campaign is ended, and service is over; and, as here used, suggests, that when men have been all their days in the service of sin, and have fought under the banners of it, the wages they will earn, and the reward that will be given them, will be death: and it is frequently observed by the Jewish doctors (c), that , "there is no death without sin": sin is the cause of death, and death the fruit and effect of sin:

biblehub.com...
Where I got this understanding of Paul using the analogy of "Sin" being a kingdom, was from another commentary that is a book, and new, which you need to buy, and I would recommend anyone interested to do that, it's called Romans: A Commentary, by Robert Jewett.
www.amazon.com...=pd_sim_b_12?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F1212852GSMC9SVG2HG

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

Maybe this will help?

The thing that I was objecting to is your creating this great theological system of sins against God without ever stipulating what one of those might be, or how they are so important to God in the first place.

God is good by definition, and all holiness is derived directly from God, again by definition, so of course God would be opposed to evil.
So if one was dedicated to evil, he would be the enemy of God, but it is more about a general principle than some sort of specific personal offence that God takes issue with.
Of course, as I pointed out in my earlier post, people like to use God to reflect their own feelings, and if someone questions their authority, then they claim that it is an offence against God.
You see this sort of thing with the religious leaders of Judea in the gospels, against Jesus.
Jesus recognizes what they are doing and criticizes it rather than endorsing it, or using the tactic himself.
All the stuff you listed is from the Old Testament, with the exception of not accepting Jesus as the son of God, which is of course because they don't know God, other than a fake God that they made up to take offense at anyone who questions their own made-up religion.
The New Testament teaches a different law which is to love one another, as God loves us, and that means everyone because God loves everyone.
I would hope that you would find it in your heart to embrace Christianity and to forsake the religion of the Pharisees.

edit on 31-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

1. The Cardinal sin of blasphemy - NT Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, 'All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men' ".
Despite what you say, God takes great personal issue with this particular sin.

2. Worshipping other/ false gods - NT - Revelation 20:4 '... who had not worshipped the Beast, or his image...'

3. Making images of God - NT - Romans 1:23 'And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.'

4. Ignoring or refusing to accept the Son/Lamb of God - NT John 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

5. Disobedience to God - NT - 1 Peter 1:2 'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...' Also NT Act 5:32 'And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.'

6. Ignoring God’s Sabbaths - NT - 1John 5:2 'By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His Commandments.' And Matthew 15:9 'But in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Sabbath observance is key to a relationship and personal contact with the Almighty.

7. Believing / worshipping Satan - NT - Matthew 4:10 '..., "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.'

You claim the NT supersedes the OT, yet in NT 2 Corinthians 3:14 it says, 'And thus their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains un-lifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away by the Messiah. Verse 15 But even unto this day when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Verse 16 Nevertheless when they turn to the LORD, the veil is taken away.'

Which goes to explain why I am not a Christian who doesn't understand the Bible, but an Israelite who does. As the Son said, "I was not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" NT Matthew 15:24.

reply to post by Maigret

1. The Cardinal sin of blasphemy
2. Worshiping other/ false gods
3. Making images of God - NT
4. Ignoring or refusing to accept the Son/Lamb of God - NT
5. Disobedience to God - NT
6. Ignoring God’s Sabbaths - NT
7. Believing / worshiping Satan - NT

I would skip #6 as being New Testament, since the use of the word "law" is not necessarily meant to refer to the old written Mosaic Law, and is more likely the law of Christ.
Other than that one, these all are ways of missing out on salvation, so your damnation is the result of neglect rather than so much incurring wrath by injuring God.

You claim the NT supersedes the OT, yet in NT 2 Corinthians 3:14 it says . . .

In the 2011 NIV version of chapter 3, it has a section heading for the part you are quoting, "The Greater Glory of the New Covenant".
biblehub.com...

It is only works.

How many decisions do you think are in a day? Like 1,000,000. Hundreds of decisions every minute in some cases. We are deciding what to think, what to do, how to react. We are a walking example of what we are. Our faith is - whether we like it or not - displayed through the many decisions that are made throughout each day. Everybody knows who you are based on your actions - not what you believe in. Or it is what you believe in - but not based on what you say? People don't care about what we say - it is about what we do. The strategy of today is to 'have faith and not show in works,' or to 'have faith and show in works showing that they are fools.' They will come force their faith upon us with 1,000,000 words, but they are foolish because in telling us all they are going against the exact words of Jesus - the one they claim to be faithful for.

I understand how the world is hypocritical.

I understand how they are not only liars, but they are the opposite of faith.

I understand why they want you, and I, to feel bad.

I understand why they are in denial.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

1. The Cardinal sin of blasphemy
2. Worshiping other/ false gods
3. Making images of God - NT
4. Ignoring or refusing to accept the Son/Lamb of God - NT
5. Disobedience to God - NT
6. Ignoring God’s Sabbaths - NT
7. Believing / worshiping Satan - NT

I would skip #6 as being New Testament, since the use of the word "law" is not necessarily meant to refer to the old written Mosaic Law, and is more likely the law of Christ.
Other than that one, these all are ways of missing out on salvation, so your damnation is the result of neglect rather than so much incurring wrath by injuring God.

You claim the NT supersedes the OT, yet in NT 2 Corinthians 3:14 it says . . .

In the 2011 NIV version of chapter 3, it has a section heading for the part you are quoting, "The Greater Glory of the New Covenant".
biblehub.com...

edit on 31-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The Son himself said that 'until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fall from the Law/Commandments' Matthew 5:18 paraphrased. This sounds like mere rhetoric until you realise that 'heaven and earth WILL pass away, and there will be no more sea', [Emphasis mine] as stated in Revelation 21:1. So until this happens, the Commandments stand!

The Son said in Mat 22:37-40 '... "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "

His 'new' commandment in John 3:34 is where he said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." does not in any way negate or do away with the Commandments of God, but extends the command to 'love your fellow man', from 'as yourself' to a new command to love others in the same self-sacrificing way 'he loved us'.

In the Lord's prayer, our request is 'Forgive us our trespasses/sins, as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us'. With this, are we asking God to forgive us our sins against others, or our sins against Him? One of my main points is that we need to evaluate what 'sins' are specifically, and which sins lead to missing out on our eternal life/salvation?

It is stated elsewhere in the Bible, that God does not hear sinners; so it follows that any sinners praying the Lord's Prayer are not being heard by Him. And what's more, it is obvious that prayers God doesn't hear, won't be answered by Him.

Missing out on salvation is caused by ignorance and deception; not neglect as you claim! When the disciples asked the Messiah about what was to come with his return and end times, the very first point he made to them was "To beware that you aren't deceived!" Matthew 24:3 & 4 paraphrased. (Satan is the root cause of all deception and he's very busy with his own agenda!)

Is that 'section heading' you quoted of "The Greater Glory of the New Covenant" part of the original writings? No. So this is not particularly relevant in your efforts to debunk my point/s.

You've ignored my point that the Old Testament, and more specifically the writings of Moses, have been deliberately hidden from general view as stated by 2 Corinthians 3:14 in the NEW TESTATMENT; and this veiling/cover is displayed accurately by you, because you think they no longer apply. In particular, God's Covenant of the Ten Commandments through Moses with the House of Israel.

And who specifically is this 'great glorious New Covenant' made with? Christians? Again, no!

Hebrews 8:7 & 8 say 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah'.

reply to post by Maigret

The Son himself said that 'until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fall from the Law/Commandments' Matthew 5:18 paraphrased. This sounds like mere rhetoric until you realize that 'heaven and earth WILL pass away, and there will be no more sea', [Emphasis mine] as stated in Revelation 21:1. So until this happens, the Commandments stand!

You are just making up your own explanation for what Jesus meant by "the Law or the Prophets". Jesus was saying that he was operating within that framework, that there was something within it that needed to be fulfilled, which is of course the very mission that he was embarking on and announcing then at that time.
Jesus was not giving a general lecture on the permanence of specific commandments within those writings.
The Prophets of course predicted the things that Jesus was bringing about, and the Law was supposed to be the dictates of Moses who talked with God, and within those revelations was one that there would follow him, one like himself who the people should follow because God would put the words in his mouth that he would say.
Jesus himself is the fulfillment and he was demonstrating it by standing on the mount and giving the law.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
(2011 NIV)
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
(2011 NIV)
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Son said in Mat 22:37-40 '... "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "

Jesus did not one day decide to expound upon the Law, but responded to promptings by those who would test him, to see if they could catch him in a thought crime against the established religion.
He was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”.
He was given this question of something that existed in writing that the Jews considered Law.
So as not to be stoned on the spot, he had to go along with the decorum of supporting the official religion, by actually picking something out of the document.
Then he comments by saying that without the part that he had just recited, the document would be invalid as any sort of law.

His 'new' commandment in John 13:34 is where he said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." does not in any way negate or do away with the Commandments of God, but extends the command to 'love your fellow man', from 'as yourself' to a new command to love others in the same self-sacrificing way 'he loved us'.

No, it actually was new, just as he said, and had nothing to do with the old written Mosaic Law. It was specifically about how Christians are to feel towards other Christians.

reply to post by Maigret

In the Lord's prayer, our request is 'Forgive us our trespasses/sins, as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us'. With this, are we asking God to forgive us our sins against others, or our sins against Him? One of my main points is that we need to evaluate what 'sins' are specifically, and which sins lead to missing out on our eternal life/salvation?

It should be obvious that he was talking about infractions against each other.

It is stated elsewhere in the Bible, that God does not hear sinners; so it follows that any sinners praying the Lord's Prayer are not being heard by Him. And what's more, it is obvious that prayers God doesn't hear, won't be answered by Him.

Are you trying to make a catch 22, that no one can be forgiven, since whatever you need to be forgiven of prevents God from hearing your request?

Missing out on salvation is caused by ignorance and deception; not neglect as you claim!

Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
(King James Version)

When the disciples asked the Messiah about what was to come with his return and end times, the very first point he made to them was "To beware that you aren't deceived!" Matthew 24:3 & 4 paraphrased. (Satan is the root cause of all deception and he's very busy with his own agenda!)

That's a different subject.

Is that 'section heading' you quoted of "The Greater Glory of the New Covenant" part of the original writings? No. So this is not particularly relevant in your efforts to debunk my point/s.

It is relevant because you are trying to say that the passage is saying the opposite as it is generally understood as saying.

You've ignored my point that the Old Testament, and more specifically the writings of Moses, have been deliberately hidden from general view as stated by 2 Corinthians 3:14 in the NEW TESTATMENT; and this veiling/cover is displayed accurately by you, because you think they no longer apply. In particular, God's Covenant of the Ten Commandments through Moses with the House of Israel.

I didn't ignore it, I responded by something that should have been interpreted as saying there is no validity to your claim, that you are completely misreading what Paul meant.

And who specifically is this 'great glorious New Covenant' made with? Christians? Again, no!

Everybody.

Hebrews 8:7 & 8 say 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah'.

He is quoting Jeremiah.
The point the writer of Hebrews was making was the insufficiency of the former covenant, with was originally made with Israel.
It doesn't somehow mean that any future covenants can only be made with a specific tribe.
I think you need to wake up to the realities of the modern world, that we aren't nomadic tribes leading sheep around in the wilderness.
We live in a global community and as John 3:16 says, God so loved the world . . .

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00


You're taking one verse and using it to prove your point, without regard to the obvious theme of the entire chapter of James 2... hence... you are taking the verse out of context. Now, having said that, your source is the Catholic Church... hardly a good source for faith based salvation, or Christianity. Catholics believe in a works based salvation, therefore their explanation of James 2 would be in step with their false belief. There are NUMEROUS verses in the NT that clearly state that it is faith alone that saves, and this one verse from James 2 that people take out of context and argue over. I tend to side with the clear scripture, instead of the one not so clear verse.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


There are also numerous passages that say that faith is simply not enough...

James had it right... without works showing your faith, said faith means nothing...

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


That is not what Catholics believe. Never have and never will. That is what Protestants are told Catholics believe because it is an easy and dismissive way to claim moral and dogmatic superiority over the Church. Catholics are aware that most Protestants are sadly misinformed about the actual beliefs of the Catholic Church, but that is in the very nature of Protestantism. For example, many Protestants are taught that Catholics worship Mary and the saints, that Catholics believe that the Pope is completely infallible and that he takes the place of Jesus, that confessing your sins to an ordained minster is not biblical, that all non-Catholics are going to hell, and of course, that we are justified by our works and that faith in the saving power of Jesus and the grace of God is not necessary for our salvation. As the Catholic council of Trent said, "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." But it also said "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."

www.catholic.com...

Matthew 19:16-17 - Then someone came to him and said, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?’ And he said to him, ‘Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.'

James 2:24 - It is by works, and not by faith alone that you are justified.

James 2:14-17 - How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

Matthew 7:21 - It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.

James 2:19-20 - You believe in the one God- that is credible enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?

Luke 9:23-24 - Then, speaking to all, he said, ‘If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross every day and follow me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, will save it.'

1 Corinthians 13:13 - As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love.

Romans 2:6-8 - God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Finally took the time to find one of the many verses in the Bible stating that we are in fact debtors to God because of our sins. From Romans 1 - "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit . . . and those who are in the flesh cannot please God . . . So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00


IF we are debtors how can there be any forgiveness?

Akragon
reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

 

IF we are debtors how can there be any forgiveness?

That is the debt Jesus paid for us once and for all on the cross.

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00


hmm... sounds like something Paul would say...

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Jesus Christ himself speaking, YES works are necessary:

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

"Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." "Whatever the mind can conceive and believe can be achieved." While this statement sounds rather grandiose, there is certainly a measure of truth in it. It's somewhat similar to what Jesus said two thousand years earlier: "According to your faith be it unto you."2 But as James, the brother of Jesus, explained, without action faith is useless.