Faith or Works or Both?

Faith leads to works. As your faith grows and you get to know God better you will be naturally moved to greater works. This was the one of the first things I learnt when I stopped being a fundamentalist and became a Christian.

reply to post by graphuto

"Fundamental law" is perhaps a confusing choice of words, but I know what he means.
It's the message of Galatians ch3, especially v17, that God's relation with Abraham, based on faith, predates the written law of Moses and takes precedence.

reply to post by Cinrad


I'm inclined to agree, thanks for sharing!

reply to post by DISRAELI


Doesn't it predate even Abraham and go all the way back to Enos?

I think the first people mentioned in the Bible to be right with God, were Enoch and then Noah, right?

As far as I know, the Bible doesn't tell us much about what this fundamental law was until we get to Abraham, but both Enoch and Noah were righteous men in the eyes of God.

But the Bible also says that it was after Enos was born that men began to call on the name of the Lord. (Roughly 325 years after Adam was created)

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

So faith first, it seems?

reply to post by graphuto

Quite so. Right from the beginning, the relationship with God comes first, the right deeds follow.
Then James puts the emphasis on deeds in reaction to the people he saw failing to "act out" their faith.

reply to post by graphuto

What was the fundamental law? How did you tie this in? What exactly are you trying to say!?

Fundamental law isn't anything specific, because then it would be a literal written law.
So it is something elastic, like if God tells you to build an ark, you don't reply, "Oh, and where does it say that?".
It comes from Romans where apparently there was friction between the Jewish Christian converts, and the gentile Christian converts as to some sort of idea of supremacy based on their having had the Law which gave them a higher moral standing.
Paul is saying that there is a level playing field, where everyone is judged or acquitted according to a standard that fits that person.
You can't do that by a single fixed law that is supposed to apply to everyone.
It is by a Law of Faith. Something that you are given individually as a direct feed from God, just as your faith is, so the two are inextricably bound to each other.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I hope the mods gave you an applause for this. To this day(even as a heathen), it amazes me how many do not understand these simple biblical concepts, and are still arguing faith and works. You explained it better than I would have. People often talk about context. Yet they fail to recognize, that to understand the new testament, the whole of it must be taken as context, not just individual epistles.

reply to post by DISRAELI

"Fundamental law" is perhaps a confusing choice of words, but I know what he means.

You are right because its primary use is for something different but I borrowed it and put it to use in a slightly different way for lack of a better word.

reply to post by graphuto


Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


End of discussion.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Text In my series on James, I necessarily had to tackle this question. Here's an extract from my comments on the relation between the two; - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very well explained DISRAELI - Thank you for that refreshing post. Sure is pleasant to read a post without the word metaphor or I know all there is to know. The OP is right on target in that he poses a very valid question of which most of us struggle in understanding.

reply to post by graphuto


Salvation is by faith alone in Jesus' death as payment for our sins. Once we are born again by faith, then and only then can a believer produce good works by the filling of the Holy Spirit (achieved by 1John1:9) that are justified in God's eyes. A believer that produces no good work had no faith to begin with. A nonbelieve who produces good work in the energy of the flesh is a white washed tomb filled with dead man's bones.

First faith, then works by faith as evidence of faith. If you add work to faith for the purpose of salvation, then you reject God's grace and are not saved. Faith alone for salvation.

The Bible makes it clear, faith without works is dead. You can't just do whatever you want with no remorse and expect to be forgiven because you believe that Jesus died for your sins. When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats on judgment day, the goats aren't allowed into heaven despite their faith.

"For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

It's not that Christian denominations who believe that people are saved by faith are wrong, they just don't have the fullness of the truth. People are absolutely saved by their faith and the grace of God, but that faith and grace only comes when we strive to do God's will and have a relationship with him. www.catholic.com...

I don't understand how anyone who is familiar with the Bible could ever argue for salvation by faith alone. The only time the term "by faith alone" is ever used in the Bible is the following sentence from James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

ghostfacekilah00
The Bible makes it clear, faith without works is dead.

Why does the entire world take this verse out of context?

If you read this whole passage from James 2, you can clearly see that it is speaking to how other people see that you are in Christ. Faith without works is dead, means that if you have no good works, then how can other people see your faith? This is not speaking to one's salvation. People can't see your heart, and they can't see your faith... but what they can see is the good work that you do in the name of Jesus Christ, and those good works are what show your faith to others. This is why Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac, in order to show his faith to others. Abraham was justified by his works in front of other people, but not God... he was justified by his faith before God.

reply to post by graphuto


The faith is the belief in God and in His Son, and the works are done by being actively obedient to God the Father.

In salvation, faith trumps works, but faith brings about the knowledge of why and how the works are important, so it becomes difficult to separate the two. And can you continue to sin, once you've been saved? Yes, but this is where the 'works' of active and genuine repentance come in, i.e. in not repeating the same mistakes. Also it is important to be aware about what actually constitutes 'sin'.

In Matthew 12:24 Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils". This is the cardinal sin for which there is no forgiveness that these Pharisees had just committed and yet they were completely unaware of the enormity of their error.

While other things we believe to be 'sins', such as those against our fellow man, weigh little against the sins we commit against God Himself. To avoid sins against God, is why the knowledge of Him is so important that it surpasses the necessity of sacrifices and suchlike.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

First faith, then works by faith as evidence of faith.

Works, I would think, have a value in themselves, and don't exist for the purpose of proving someone has faith in order to be "saved".
We are saved to good works, so the main purpose of works is the good that it does, and that's what Jesus meant when he said he came to save the world, which is making it a nicer place if everyone did their part of having the world "right".

reply to post by Maigret

While other things we believe to be 'sins', such as those against our fellow man, weigh little against the sins we commit against God Himself.

God is the source of holiness, and we should be like Him, as Jesus said, by not treating people differently, according to what we might expect to get back from them.

I interpret the scriptures to mean that faith in Jesus is what allowed us to be saved. No Jesus dying = no ressurection. At the same time, you have to express your faith through works. Faith without works is dead.
Faith comes first
Works come second.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


www.catholic.com...

What did I take out of context? I cited the verse stating that "faith without works is dead." You do believe that we can commit any and all sins and still be saved as long as we believe that Jesus died for our sins? Also, explain how I took James 2:24 out of context which states that we are justified by our works, not by faith alone. Read the following verses in which the "faith without works is dead" verse is located and explain how you could possibly come to the conclusion that this chapter doesn't say that both works and faith are necessary for salvation

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

While other things we believe to be 'sins', such as those against our fellow man, weigh little against the sins we commit against God Himself.

God is the source of holiness, and we should be like Him, as Jesus said, by not treating people differently, according to what we might expect to get back from them.

I must've expressed myself badly... I didn't mean as in treating people differently.

I meant as in being fully aware of what God regards as sin. I believe often 'sin' is not what we're told or taught it is. And I distinguish between the seven deadly sins which would affect our physical well-being, and the sins against God which could deprive us of our spiritual futures.

reply to post by Maigret

I must've expressed myself badly... I didn't mean as in treating people differently.

I was trying to figure out what a "sin against God" might be, since you haven't specified what such a thing might be.
I realize that there is in the Old Testament sin against God in not giving offerings to the Jerusalem temple, but rather using a local altar and priests not ordained by the king who sits on the throne in Jerusalem, but I see those as more like sins against the human religion and power monopoly of the state.
There are what I would consider to be real sins pointed out in the OT Prophets, which are actually lodged against the government, for not maintaining justice because of the corruption of the officials charged with acting as judges, and this gets repeated by Jesus in the Gospel of John.