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Faith or Works or Both?

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posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 09:57 AM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret
 

I believe the Bible to be literal, and so precise, it's scary. I also understand that the Bible was mainly meant for this last / final generation; which made it immaterial whether or not previous generations understood anything in it. Only this generation [those alive now] will actually face the Antichrist, and have the choice as whether or not to worship him or his image, receive his mark, etc.
I find all of this to be bizarre.
Can you explain how this makes any sense?
Does nothing exist except to be a mere backdrop before which this scene is to play out, that the mission of Jesus utterly fails and causes the destruction of the world?
I don't think so, and more likely this interpretation is made up to get attention for certain people (the inventors of these theories) who feel a need for such things.
(like Darby, who was overshadowed by these great people and wanted his own path to greatness and glory)
Even the very idea that there is this person, the antichrist, is completely made up and isn't even in the Bible.
edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


It may sound bizarre, but that's only because you're looking at it through Christian lenses.

To keep it brief, which means leaving out a whole lot of detail. The Antichrist is described in many ways with different 'titles' in the Bible; as the Beast from the Sea, as the Little Horn, as the Eighth Head, etc. This composite character is one who stands in place of the true Messiah (which is why I call him the Antichrist), and who is given by God the power for exactly 1,260 days to shatter the power of the holy people/saints/elect to refine them and make them white by killing them! This is known as the Tribulation.

Don't you realise that the death and horrible crucifixion of the Son was the fore-shadow of these events. By the crucifixion, the Son was inaugurated as the High Priest, and sacrificed as the Lamb, because only his blood atones for the sins of the saints; as planned for by God!

The world as it is in this day and age is unsalvageable, the delicate balance of nature has been broken. Read the ATS headlines! God only allows it because it is part and parcel of His purposes and He will cleanse and renew this earth with massive volcanoes, etc. and by fire.

Wickedness and evil will be obliterated... and will be no more! Never, ever again will there be any evil doing on this planet.

God does not fail... nor will His Son.




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by ghostfacekilah00
 

You have officially lost all credibility with me.
I can't tell you how many times I have been told that on this forum, and it seems to me to be a giving up on something that can't be supported, not giving up the belief, but giving up trying to convince me of its correctness.

And Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Which is in the same section as what your first quote was from.
Paul was quoting the Old Testament to refute the claims of the Roman Christians who were Jew converts, that they were morally superior to the Roman Christians who were gentile converts, that even the very scripture, that supposedly supports this attitude, tells them that they are not righteous by that law.
edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 10:04 AM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret
 

. . . until heaven and earth pass away . . .
Which is a figure of speech.
It is not a prediction.



P.S. You don't have to believe me now, but when you see it happening; Christians killing people for not worshipping Jesus, then you will know that those dying are the Elect/Saints of God.

If it's a figure of speech, then why specify that there will be no sea/s on the new earth? This is only said so that while we can holiday on the sea shores, we know this is still the old earth that one day it will be replaced - literally!



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by Maigret
 

This verse IS written in the Scriptures, and the Scriptures cannot be broken... in other words, they will come true!
I don't think that was the point Jesus was making.
Here were these people who were supposed to be experts on the Law but din't really understand it but instead used it to build their ego or something, and not helping other people out especially.
Psalm 82 is comparing the judges of Israel to idols, where they don't actually help anyone.



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by Maigret
 

Don't you realize that the death and horrible crucifixion of the Son was the fore-shadow of these events. By the crucifixion, the Son was inaugurated as the High Priest, and sacrificed as the Lamb, because only his blood atones for the sins of the saints; as planned for by God!
The new covenant is brought into effect through Jesus' death.
"New Covenant" is really more a metaphor than an actual document or set of rituals to be carried out, and is a device for Jews (and so the title, the Book of Hebrews, which is a letter to Jew converts to Christianity who were considering going back to their former religion) to get the point that the old one has been superseded.
Any mention in the Bible of "sacrificed as the Lamb" is a metaphorical connection with the Passover, which is not a sin atonement but symbolizes membership with the congregation of the saved.
The "saved" in the former sense was being freed from the slavery of Egypt, and in the newer sense, being freed from the bondage to sin.
Paul makes the analogy in his effort to convince the Corinthians to live free of sin.

Never, ever again will there be any evil doing on this planet.

God does not fail... nor will His Son.
And this can only be accomplished by killing everyone?
What was all that stuff that Jesus did for, then?

edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by Maigret
 

P.S. You don't have to believe me now, but when you see it happening; Christians killing people for not worshiping Jesus, then you will know that those dying are the Elect/Saints of God.
Do you know how many Christians were killed by Muslims in Malaysia with government complicity, with total genocide?
Jesus didn't come.
Do every Christian on earth have to be killed first.
These are rhetorical questions because the only sane response in my opinion is to discard all these sensationalist theories.

f it's a figure of speech, then why specify that there will be no sea/s on the new earth? This is only said so that while we can holiday on the sea shores, we know this is still the old earth that one day it will be replaced - literally!
One is in the gospels and the other is in Revelation.
It is making use of a type of thinking that is in the apocalyptic literature, that the sea represents chaos that existed before God's spirit acted on it to bring forth land.
Sea represents danger of the world going back to its earlier state.
Sort of like hell being thrown in the lake of fire, it represents the removal of this source of fear.


edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

Or Jesus, being said definition have to do with him paying any debt?
Luke 17:10
So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"
(2011 NIV)
Jesus as our Lord makes us his servants, who we are obligated to obey.



Is a servant not worthy of his wages?

I still see no debt that is owed according to his words...

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

I still see no debt that is owed according to his words...
"Debt" was one translation in the verse quoted earlier by ghostfacekilah00.
I was reading the same verse in the 2011 NIV, which translated the same word as "obligation", which explains what the subject was of the conversation by Paul, rather than what ghostfacekilah00 was trying to make it out as being (a sin debt).
We owe God a debt of gratitude.
Then I was trying to apply the same sort of general concept to something Jesus said, per your request, which was what a person is under obligation for, when under a lord, which Jesus happens to be, if we believe in him.
We are his disciples, as Christians, and he is our master.
I was saying that relationship means something in terms of obligation.
Then I quoted a verse from the gospels about a duty, which is something within the realm of obligatory actions or tasks.
edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


You're right... faith does mean nothing without works, to other people. Our good works is the way that we show others our faith in Christ.



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:18 PM
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jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon
 

I still see no debt that is owed according to his words...
"Debt" was one translation in the verse quoted earlier by ghostfacekilah00.
I was reading the same verse in the 2011 NIV, which translated the same word as "obligation", which explains what the subject was of the conversation by Paul, rather than what ghostfacekilah00 was trying to make it out as being (a sin debt).
We owe God a debt of gratitude.
Then I was trying to apply the same sort of general concept to something Jesus said, per your request, which was what a person is under obligation for, when under a lord, which Jesus happens to be, if we believe in him.
We are his disciples, as Christians, and he is our master.
I was saying that relationship means something in terms of obligation.
Then I quoted a verse from the gospels about a duty, which is something within the realm of obligatory actions or tasks.
edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


a debt of gratitude I can understand... but in debt to God because of sin is just not in the gospels anywhere...

He says specifically "offences will come"... but we are forgiven our offences if we do likewise...

More on your thought process though... IF as Christians you are obligated to obey him, then work is absolutely necessary...

Everything he did he considered "his Fathers work"... and everything he said was based around loving your neighbour...

IF Christians actually did what they were supposed to do, that being... doing what he said to do, Christianity as a whole would be much better off




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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OptimusSubprime
reply to post by Akragon
 


You're right... faith does mean nothing without works, to other people. Our good works is the way that we show others our faith in Christ.


SO as I've said numerous times.... WORK is necessary

Faith alone can NOT be "the way"




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:31 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

IF Christians actually did what they were supposed to do, that being... doing what he said to do, Christianity as a whole would be much better off
The world would be better off, and I think that is the whole idea.



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I agree...

SO again, without works of the spirit, Faith is nothing...

Thus... Works are necessary... Despite what Paul says




posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Thus... Works are necessary... Despite what Paul says
"Works of the Law", meaning those things that only present an outward show of piety but don't do anything of benefit to others.
Some people like to redefine it as meaning to do any good deeds, in a parroting of some old interpretations that were flawed but still hold currency in some circles.



posted on Apr, 4 2014 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is where the whole "faith alone" idea comes from...

Faith without works or deeds is no faith...




posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 02:53 AM
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5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Faith.
It specifically says "to him that worketh not"

Which brings me back to the OP. What if you don't always have the works?
Does a person go back and forth between being saved and unsaved?

If it's dependent on works, then obviously, yes.
If faith alone, then no!

edit on 5-4-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 02:58 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 


IF one doesn't work, he can not believe what Jesus said...

Its as simple as that...

IF one believes in Jesus they do as he asked of us...

Who do you think hes talking about when he said "I never knew you"?




posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 03:05 AM
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Akragon
reply to post by graphuto
 


IF one doesn't work, he can not believe what Jesus said...


That's not what it says!
I somewhat agree with that but it's a tad backwards. Yes, if you believe in Jesus, then naturally the works will follow. But what about the times in life when someone is "back-slidden" or weak in the faith? It happens to most everyone.




Who do you think hes talking about when he said "I never knew you"?



Maybe people who think they can work their way to heaven? To be honest I don't know.
What I do know is that there are more verses to support "salvation by faith alone" than there are verses that support "salvation by works."

What was being spoken of or referred to when it was said "but to him that worketh not?"


edit on 5-4-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by graphuto
 



That's not what it says!


That IS what HE says...


What I do know is that there are more verses to support "salvation by faith alone" than there are verses that support "salvation by works."


Only when you read Paul... which is where the whole faith alone idea came from in the first place...

Not to mention "grace" which Jesus also never mentioned...

Without work, Faith has no backing...

IF one says "I believe in Jesus" they do as he asked of us... covered in the books which outline his life... NOT Paul




posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


You're always trying to discredit or ignore what Paul says. I'm not sure where or why you have this position. His words are in the Bible, I take it as scripture. As has most everyone else for the past however long. I outlined in the beginning of the thread that we will be taking the entire Bible as the inspired Word of God for the purposes of this discussion.


John 1:1 : 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(emphasis mine)

Yes, if you believe in Jesus, then naturally the works will follow. But again, what about the times in life when someone is "back-slidden" or weak in the faith and not doing the works, and they die? It could happen to most anyone.

Also, again, what was being spoken of or referred to when it was said "but to him that worketh not?"

Also...



26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


So when we're doing the works, we're saved, and when we aren't, we're not?

Shall never die. Everlasting life.

Does everlasting happen sometimes, and not, sometimes?

What about ALL of the people that Jesus just sent on their way, saying "for thou has believed" ???
edit on 5-4-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



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