Crimea besieged by Ukraine control of power, water

reply to post by Xcathdra


They are both provocative, but with the annexation of Crimea and the cutting off of power and water - necessities for life - It is just as much an act of war, more so than supporting a people who want to succeed.

This gives Russia a valid reason to go to war against the Ukraine as it's seen as a full blown act of war whenever you endanger lives, whether by bullet or by cutting off resources. This is actually one way to win a war and is definitely an act of war in any century therefore, Russia can now go into the Ukraine and simply say it is to save the lives of Crimean's, who wanted no more than to have democratic process.

It's really a bad move on the part of the Ukraine and Russia still comes out smelling like a rose since all they did was support the people of Crimea to have their own choice of government.

Whether you like it or not, the simple is how it will be seen by most people and how it will be played by Russia. Most people don't understand the minute details, nor will they care about them. In the end its Russia's support of democracy followed by an aggressive act of war against an innocent democracy-loving people.

Soon the airwaves will be filled with the atrocious conditions of the people of Crimea, and maybe even a death or two to top it off directly related to the power / water issues.

That will be followed by a war and a good portion of the world will support it.

As far as the US saying anything, quite frankly they cannot. The US annexed Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa and the list can go on. Apparently, there is nothing wrong with allowing a people to choose to be a part of your nation. No matter what, that is the same as Crimea.

Speotyto
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well... you asked if Ukraine has the right to cut energy and water from reaching Crimea, that's confusing... they say Crimea belongs to them, so why punish its people ? Maybe they just lack the guts to face Russia and they're playing low putting pressure onto ordinary people.

"ordinary people" who according to Putin and the vote want nothing to do with the Ukraine. Sorry but this hypocrisy at its best.

At the other hand, Russia also can cut energy supply to Ukraine as a response to this...

and not get paid..... The Ukraine will simply try and source fuel from somewhere else. As will Europe.

Also, maybe the Ukraine government is showing its true face ? One thing I know for sure, this isn't very clever and surely will push Crimea further into Russia's influence.

The crimeans are getting what they wanted annexation from Ukraine. They cannot bitch and complain afterwards when it starts to go pear shaped. Tough.

The source of the problem is the illegal annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine by Russia. It was a leader of the Russian/Soviet government who handed over Crimea to the Ukraine (the Russians have gone back on that not the west nor the Ukraine government). It was Russians (along with UK and US) that signed an agreement to respect the state of Crimea as being part of the Ukraine in return for the removal of Nukes from Ukraine (The russians have broken that agreement).

yorkshirelad

Speotyto
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well... you asked if Ukraine has the right to cut energy and water from reaching Crimea, that's confusing... they say Crimea belongs to them, so why punish its people ? Maybe they just lack the guts to face Russia and they're playing low putting pressure onto ordinary people.

"ordinary people" who according to Putin and the vote want nothing to do with the Ukraine. Sorry but this hypocrisy at its best.

At the other hand, Russia also can cut energy supply to Ukraine as a response to this...

and not get paid..... The Ukraine will simply try and source fuel from somewhere else. As will Europe.

Also, maybe the Ukraine government is showing its true face ? One thing I know for sure, this isn't very clever and surely will push Crimea further into Russia's influence.

The crimeans are getting what they wanted annexation from Ukraine. They cannot bitch and complain afterwards when it starts to go pear shaped. Tough.

The source of the problem is the illegal annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine by Russia. It was a leader of the Russian/Soviet government who handed over Crimea to the Ukraine (the Russians have gone back on that not the west nor the Ukraine government). It was Russians (along with UK and US) that signed an agreement to respect the state of Crimea as being part of the Ukraine in return for the removal of Nukes from Ukraine (The russians have broken that agreement).

The real source of the problem is NATO's expanionsist adgenda, it was not if but when (and that is now) that they would expand one too many. There was NO need to ignite Ukraine, they were going to have elections in Summer this year anyway. The other source of the problem is extremist Svoboda party (but they are now in the target sights by the west).

The people voted, it is their problem, stop poking your nose in other peoples business on how they run their lives.

reply to post by VirusGuard


You live in a dream land. When is the last time Russian troops put in work? The US has been at war somewhere in the world at all times for decades. They've seen urban, desert, jungles, wooded, snow and ice. The troops are veterans. Nobody is mopping the floor with them. Stop dreaming of some supreme equalizer. Its just two sides of the same coin if it wasn't NATO or EU it would, and still may be BRIC in the future. Greed knows no border it cant cross.

The only benefit Russia has is, it is their own backyard. But don't try to match military might, its not happening if they didnt have nukes they'd already be toast, same with China and any other country we haven't gone in. You think we are in debt for no reason. Where do you think the money goes, to projects that all fail? Mutually assured destruction is the only thing left protecting the fragile balance.

Russia plays the same game the US plays. Except when their puppet government didn't work for them, they come in and pull a land grab. They signed, sealed and delivered it you all cheered,despite an agreement stating against that very thing. Now you people have a problem with Ukraine shutting of the lights? Let Russia pay for it. Sounds like they didn't think it all the way through. You constantly contradict yourselves. They all wanted Russia. Its a Russian problem now. Provide assistance to the people you came into save, Putin. You expect Ukraine to sit their and take it and continue to give its supplies to another country. They have some cards in their deck they can play. Time to negotiate

I think that this is the excuse the Russia will use to expand further into the Ukraine.

Ukraine can't really play with cutting electricity and water supply to Crimea. Even if they somehow legally bypass their current market obligations (these supplies are being paid for by the people of Crimea), it is still immoral to hurt civilians.

Russia supplies gas to Ukraine, which is their MAIN source of electricity, for a very low price (at least until 2019) AND with a huge discount AND they are not able to pay even this cheap so we automatically give them credit. Otherwise, Ukraine, a country of 45 million people would suffer a dire humanitarian situation where millions can die in a matter weeks without electricity or even basic heat. Russia will not allow something like this to happen, at least during the peaceful times. Currently, ordinary Ukranians pay HALF the price of what we Russians pay ourselves for the gas we produce.

Crimean supplies are very dependent on Ukraine, but Ukrainian supplies are very depended on Russia.
Cutting electricity or water to the people of Crimea will be considered no less than an act of war against Russia.

Marid Audran
I think that this is the excuse the Russia will use to expand further into the Ukraine.

Not really. Russia will have Crimea powered up in a couple of months.

Crimea already is using deseil generators.

reply to post by Etherguide


The whole country was illegally bypassed. From the coup itself to the referendum, to the land grab. What obligations to a foreign country do you speak of? Crimea is Russia again. The supply shut off just shows Ukraine has some leverage. Russia still has oil, yes. So the two sides can sit down and strike a deal that's more appealing to both sides. Ukraine does not have to bow and accept it.

reply to post by kathat


Power wont be the problem. Where they going to get the water? Constantly ship it? Oil is fun n and all but it doesn't put food on the table or water the crops. You can convert that to cash that will buy you what you need, but then that defeats the purpose and the cash you hoped to surplus goes to infrastructure and shipping costs.

reply to post by MrStyx

MrStyx
reply to post by Etherguide

 

What obligations to a foreign country do you speak of?

I'm not even speaking about obligations to a foreign country. I'm speaking about obligations of private Ukrainian companies to the people of Crimea who pay their bills for electricity and water in time.

MrStyx
reply to post by Etherguide

 

Crimea is Russia again. The supply shut off just shows Ukraine has some leverage. Russia still has oil, yes. So the two sides can sit down and strike a deal that's more appealing to both sides. Ukraine does not have to bow and accept it.

First of all, Ukranian authorities don't consider Crimea as a Russian territory even though it de facto is. Secondly, Minister of foreign relations of Ukraine has already stated on March 25 that they will not cut the electricity to Crimea. Of course they won't, it's a suicidal move, because it will cause a humanitarian catastrophe, it is an act of war against Russia which may leave Ukraine itself without energy imports from Russia, and it may even bring down some Ukranian power companies who will loose hundreds of thousands of customers in one day. Not a very smart move, right?

I guess they were just testing Russian reaction during these power shortages on Monday.

VirusGuard

kdyam

Hijinx
reply to post by HanzHenry

 

A chance for Emurcah to pull out it's tiny pecker and rape another country are you kidding me? What in gods name makes you think they would pass up an opportunity like that?

The US is itching for someone to bully, the only reason the US doesn't dive head first into this one is Russia is more than capable of mopping the floor with the US.

LOL.. Really? If it was only Russia versus the US you really think they would wipe the floor with us? A country whose military is normally so drunk they dont follow orders or attend drill training? Russians planes are in such disrepair that some of them fall out of the sky?

Yeah right! One on one it would be a no problem situation... hopefully it never happens. The US and Russia are bullies.. and the problem with bullies is that they always bring their friends.. I for one hope we never find out who would win... but Russia in its current state is no match for the US one on one.

Well are these Russians that are drunk on cheap vodka not a match for the average overweight american who would jump when told but are too heavy to do so and would run to mummy and daddy ? Me thinks you watch too much Hollywood

The Tanks Russia brought to WWII (That war the USA came too late to and grabbed all the credit for) were ahead of the Ronsom lighters that the USA sent over and Russia is way ahead of the USA when it comes to Missile system

"The US and Russia are bullies"

No it's the USA under the control of international bankers that are the bullies and all that Russia has done is to take a stand against being surrounded and no one can blame them

Try watching some Russia Today if they still let you see it where you live

LOL.. I do agree with some of what you said, but the drunk Russian troops wouldnt be fighting fatties like me, who drink beer and grill ribs all week long, they would be fighting our troops, fit and well trained.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is still using some of those WWII tank today..lol.

I guess it would be USA under the control of bankers, and Russia under the control of the mafia and bankers.. pretty even on the exchange since bankers are a mafia of their own.

Have you looked at a map lately? There is no way Russia could be "surrounded" just look at their borders and land mass, maybe stacked up against on their border, but they have no borders for almost 50% of their country, and the largest border they share is with their ally.

yorkshirelad

The source of the problem is the illegal annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine by Russia. It was a leader of the Russian/Soviet government who handed over Crimea to the Ukraine (the Russians have gone back on that not the west nor the Ukraine government). It was Russians (along with UK and US) that signed an agreement to respect the state of Crimea as being part of the Ukraine in return for the removal of Nukes from Ukraine (The russians have broken that agreement).

The source of the problem is the inherent difficulty governments have with the second and third principle points of the Atlantic Charter. This difficulty, I am certain, is the reason the Charter was only spoken and never signed.

But it had to be spoken then, and it keeps being spoken now; however, its only followed if and when certain governments want it to be and its words held in the air against all who are not our closest of buds.

Words which mean nothing to all but the average man. The wolf in sheep's clothing are such words - are they not?

I am certain Crimea feels quite a bit like Puerto Rico did once upon a time when:

"They lamented that in negotiations between the United States and Spain, “the voice of Puerto Rico was not heard” and “the island and its people were conveyed from one sovereign to another as a farm and its cattle are conveyed from a master to another."

José Julio Henna and Manuel Zeno Gandia, The Case of Puerto Rico, (Washington DC: Press of W.F. Roberts, 1899)

Too bad we cannot have something like the Charter in writing that people would follow huh? Instead we get to hear meaningless words.

So Russia takes control of the region by force yet they expect Ukraine to keep the lights on and water flowing? This is absurd!! Screw the Russians and their civilian backers, let them play Rambo in the dark and ship water in like they should have to since they wanted nothing to do with mainland Ukraine ( So Russia says ). Russia owes Ukraine more than it will ever be able to pay back for Chernobyl, Let alone building the new containment cover so it does not happen again if the old one collapses.

I would tell Putin, you fix Chernobyl and you can have Crimea with our blessing.

HanzHenry
It will give Putin the cause to do something to Ukraine. The Ukraine military told the Russians that "the usa is with us" before the vote. They falsely thought the USA was gonna help out.

Now they are once again provoking Russia thinking that the US will step in and help them.

Well look at Saakashvili now. This is the western puppet nationalist of the 2003 "Rose Revolution" that provoked Russia into a full-blown war, believing that NATO would just jump in on his side. After the days of his tie-eating presidency ended, he fled Georgia to work in the west. Now he is wanted in Georgia for questioning on corruption and the suspicious murder of a fellow politician. Same breed of people now running Ukraine.

As for Crimea, they now fall within Russian jurisdiction and should be on their energy grids soon. Meanwhile the rest of Ukraine can try their best to get by without Russian gas since they haven't been paying for it for years. I guess the anti-Russian crowd on ATS ignores the fact that their pro-Russian government was allowed to get away with this. Maybe the EU can provide them with energy?

reply to post by kdyam


Russia cannot be surrounded? NATO begs to differ.

In fact, geopolitics dictates key regions that are fought over to exert economic and political power, much more complex then just looking at a map. Brzezinski (a key architect of containment strategy regarding the USSR) himself stated that the regions to be controlled to exert global hegemony are the Middle East, East Asia, and Eastern Europe. Now look at Russian, American, EU and Chinese involvement in these regions. The US does not occupy all of these regions by coincidence.