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Crimea besieged by Ukraine control of power, water

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posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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Crimea besieged by Ukraine control of power, water


SIMFEROPOL, Crimea (AP) — Within days of Crimea being swallowed up by Russia, the lights began flickering out.
Officials in the peninsula accused Ukraine of halving electricity supplies in order to bully Crimea, which voted earlier this month in a referendum to secede and join Russia.

"Cutting supplies is an attempt by Kiev to blackmail Russia through Crimea," Crimean Prime Minister Sergei Aksyonov wrote on his Twitter account.

Aksyonov's combative reaction reflects a sobering reality for Crimea: the strategic peninsula's overwhelming reliance on electricity and water supplies from mainland Ukraine. The Kiev government, which has been unable to prevent the Russian annexation, still wields a weapon it can use to bargain with its aggressive neighbor.

Crimea currently gets about 80 percent of its electricity and a similar share of its water needs from Ukraine.

But Ukraine also needs to be careful not to hit Crimeans too hard over electricity and water. It cannot afford to be seen hurting ordinary people as it argues that the region remains part of its territory.


Click links for remainder of article...

Personally speaking I think cutting off basic necessities is a bad idea yet at the same time Crimea is the one who held the referendum. Part of me thinks they should have looked at the whole board to see what type of repercussions could result from their hasty actions.

Russia discusses some stop gap measures (hooking Crimea into the Russian power grid by building a 2.8 mile transmission line that would cross the straights.

Water on the other hand seems to be a huge issue. Crimea gets its water from the old Soviet built canals than run through Ukraine. To date they don't have an alternative source to replace it should Ukraine completely cut resources going into Crimea.

Russia suggests modifying crops in Crimea to reduce water usage... It is going to be several years to build the required infrastructure.

Until then, at least for now, they are at the mercy of Ukraine.

So the question is -

Is Ukraine within its rights to end electricity and water flowing into Crimea?


edit on 26-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


how petty leaders can be. this is like a tantrum and pouting. Very stupid. The Ukraine thinks this will turn the Crimeans sour?

It will give Putin the cause to do something to Ukraine. The Ukraine military told the Russians that "the usa is with us" before the vote. They falsely thought the USA was gonna help out.

Now they are once again provoking Russia thinking that the US will step in and help them.

What can Ukraine do if Russia decides to take more action? The US would be foolish to intervene as it appears that China supports Russia. And that means the madman in NK does too. Can the US, with its PTSD riddled military on psych meds take on that for no gain?


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posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I believe they do have the right to cut power and water. I'm wondering, what was the advantage of the people of Crimea siding with the Russians? What do they get out of this? It looks to me like all they are going to get is advice.

It's time for Putin to take care of his people. Good luck with that!



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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Crimea will get all the energy they need and more soon enough.

Ukraine however, well, last I heard they wanted to use those nuke plants for some other kind of power supply.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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It is going to be several years to build the required infrastructure.

The West may want to check up on some of those over cost Sochi infrastructure improvements.



Is Ukraine within its rights to end electricity and water flowing into Crimea?

Within their rights? Absolutely. Ukraine was only beholden to Crimea when it was part of Ukraine, not Russia.

That being said, I am in agreement with you in that that is a very fine line to walk...just enough cuts to disrupt, not enough to hurt civilians badly.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Well... you asked if Ukraine has the right to cut energy and water from reaching Crimea, that's confusing... they say Crimea belongs to them, so why punish its people ? Maybe they just lack the guts to face Russia and they're playing low putting pressure onto ordinary people.

At the other hand, Russia also can cut energy supply to Ukraine as a response to this...

Also, maybe the Ukraine government is showing its true face ? One thing I know for sure, this isn't very clever and surely will push Crimea further into Russia's influence.

Cheers,


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posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:31 PM
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I think it's up to Russia now to supply Crimea with everything they need, the population there want to be Russian and they kicked the Ukraines out, IMO Ukraine should cut everything 100% electricity, gas, food, water, money, internet, phone lines and cell towers.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:32 PM
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NeoSpace
I think it's up to Russia now to supply Crimea with everything they need, the population there want to be Russian and they kicked the Ukraines out, IMO Ukraine should cut everything 100% electricity, gas, food, water, money, internet, phone lines and cell towers.


Ukraine must be rolling in money then to have the luxuary of turning down power supply contracts.

Last I heard though, they were bankrupt to the tune of BEGGING for 35 billion in loans plus interest payments paid back.

You must be wealthy also, because YOU are going to end up footing their loan


Enjoy hubris.
edit on 26-3-2014 by kathat because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:37 PM
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Ok then if not cut power and water to Crimea then increase the price at least 500%
Russia will have to pay up or lay out their own infrastructure, either way it will hurt Russia in the pocket.
edit on 26-3-2014 by NeoSpace because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:37 PM
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Shot themselves in the foot on that one.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:37 PM
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NeoSpace
Ok then if not cut power and water to Crimea then increase the price at least 500%


Sure, and make sure you pay GasProm 2 BILLION for the past 2 years gas, AND China for their billions they want paid back.

Russia is saving BILLIONS now by having their base rent free, and a pipeline OVER land rather than UNDER it
Far cheaper.

Ukraine is a bad payer. That is why Russia have a Northern pipe and a southern pipe, to supply Europe without Ukraine. This has been planned for years, they know what they are doing.


edit on 26-3-2014 by kathat because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by Speotyto
 


I thought Crimea already joined Russia?



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:02 PM
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HanzHenry
how petty leaders can be. this is like a tantrum and pouting. Very stupid. The Ukraine thinks this will turn the Crimeans sour?

I am torn on this one... To me Crimea should have thought about those issues before running head first into a referendum. They made it clear they don't want anything from Ukraine.

As for tantrum, could the same not be applied to Russia with regards to them jacking up prices for Ukraine while threatening Europe to cut off gas supplies?

That is the other reason im torn on this.



HanzHenry
It will give Putin the cause to do something to Ukraine. The Ukraine military told the Russians that "the usa is with us" before the vote. They falsely thought the USA was gonna help out.

Based on the Budapest document I tend to agree with Ukraine. While I don't think anyone would win in a war I take a different approach to treaty obligations. The purpose behind them is to avoid situations exactly like this. There is nothing stopping another country now from supporting Chechen independence.

The action taken / precedent set by Russia can easily spiral out of control, as others have pointed out in this thread and others dealing with Ukraine.



HanzHenry
Now they are once again provoking Russia thinking that the US will step in and help them.

If Crimea does not want to be a part of Ukraine, and Russia supported that effort for them to leave, and then annexed them, it would mean Ukraine is supplying water / energy to Russia while at the same time Russia is jacking up their prices to Ukraine.
Im not sure this could count as a provocation towards Russia, especially with Russia stating they will fix Crimea (3 billion has been set aside for improvements, but that does not take into account energy / water).


HanzHenry
What can Ukraine do if Russia decides to take more action? The US would be foolish to intervene as it appears that China supports Russia. And that means the madman in NK does too. Can the US, with its PTSD riddled military on psych meds take on that for no gain?

China is trying to play this down by playing both sides of the street. They are desperately trying to strike a balance to protect their claims in the Pacific. Taiwan, islands etc China most likely has the same type of plans drawn up. If they mismanage / over play their hand dealing with Russia, they can face a blowback should they choose to take actions.

North Korea can be removed from that equation.. Unless China / Russia are going to upgrade their military to support any war effort towards the west. I would almost guarantee that Russia and China would concentrate on heir own interests first with the defense of North Korea at the bottom of that list.

As for the comments about the military - a generalization is not fact. Not to mention I think people underestimate the American people when it comes to war. Just because our nation is divided over politics, we seem to have this uncanny ability to set those differences aside to deal with a threat as a whole.

Was it not a provocation for Russia to waltz into Crimea? I ask because I don't see how Russia's actions are not provocative (not taking into account forces on the border outside of Crimea) while Ukraine's is.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:05 PM
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kathat
Crimea will get all the energy they need and more soon enough.

Ukraine however, well, last I heard they wanted to use those nuke plants for some other kind of power supply.



They wanted increased security around them in order to better protect against a possible attack on them should Russia continue with military action further into Ukraine.

As for nuclear weapons - Are the Ukraine plants of the type that can produce the needed material for a nuke?



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:06 PM
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Xcathdra

kathat
Crimea will get all the energy they need and more soon enough.

Ukraine however, well, last I heard they wanted to use those nuke plants for some other kind of power supply.



They wanted increased security around them in order to better protect against a possible attack on them should Russia continue with military action further into Ukraine.

As for nuclear weapons - Are the Ukraine plants of the type that can produce the needed material for a nuke?


Most likely since they where one of the largest stockpilers.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:12 PM
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peck420
The West may want to check up on some of those over cost Sochi infrastructure improvements.

They touched on that issue in the article as well. The amount of cost / time overruns linked into corruption. Was there ever a final tally for Sochi? I know they spent about 50 billion... I was curious if they got a return on their investment by hosting the Olympics.



peck420
Within their rights? Absolutely. Ukraine was only beholden to Crimea when it was part of Ukraine, not Russia.

Agreed



peck420
That being said, I am in agreement with you in that that is a very fine line to walk...just enough cuts to disrupt, not enough to hurt civilians badly.

A PR nightmare for both sides, compounded by the addition of slanted reporting from both sides. While I can see Crimea being pissed at Ukraine for cutting the flow, I also wonder if a blowback towards Russia would occur. More along the lines why didn't Russia have anything in place to address that issue. They could possibly have the "why did we hold this referendum if in the end you cant even provide us with water or electricity.

That could be compounded by the sanctions. Another set of sanctions targeting several sector's of Russia's economy are being prepped should Russia continue to "protect ethnic Russians". The longer this drags out the more I wonder if Russia will have the finances to take care of Crimea by living up to their promises or if those plans might be delayed from the decrease in funds coming in.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:16 PM
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Speotyto
Well... you asked if Ukraine has the right to cut energy and water from reaching Crimea, that's confusing... they say Crimea belongs to them, so why punish its people ? Maybe they just lack the guts to face Russia and they're playing low putting pressure onto ordinary people.

If we view it as still Ukrainian territory then they would be seen as denying the occupation army resources needed for that area to function.
If we view it as occupied / part of Russia, then the why supply a region that belongs to a country that has hostile intentions towards you?



Speotyto
At the other hand, Russia also can cut energy supply to Ukraine as a response to this...

Which they have done in the past, in addition to Europe. Aside from energy resources, what else does Russia have than can give them leverage?

Which raises the other question - If Its ok for Russia to stop the flow.....




Speotyto
Also, maybe the Ukraine government is showing its true face ? One thing I know for sure, this isn't very clever and surely will push Crimea further into Russia's influence.
Cheers,


Possibly... I think it could possibly blow up in Russia's face though. All that time and energy to bring Crimea in only to find they have no water / electricity and to add insult to injury no one in Crimea / Russia saw that coming. That's a hell of an oversight.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:20 PM
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NeoSpace
I think it's up to Russia now to supply Crimea with everything they need, the population there want to be Russian and they kicked the Ukraines out, IMO Ukraine should cut everything 100% electricity, gas, food, water, money, internet, phone lines and cell towers.


Energy will be the first sector restored since they discussed hooking Crimea into the Russian power grid with the cable extension.

Water - They are still working on that one.

Aside from H2O and energy, this could put pressure on the economy of Russia and Crimea, since they would need to ship those resources in. With the market adjusting to the incident in question, the problems with the ruble (Russia has had to pump 10 billion into the system to stabilize it), how much will these items cost in the short term.

Does anyone know what the standard of living / cost of living differences are between Crimea and Russia?



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:23 PM
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kathat
Last I heard though, they were bankrupt to the tune of BEGGING for 35 billion in loans plus interest payments paid back.


In addition to the IMF loan they are going to try and bill Russia for the loss of "Ukrainian assets" in Crimea. they estimated the total loss so far to be in excess of 20 billion.


While I don't see Russia accepting that, I think Ukraine could actually argue their point in their favor. Ukraine is behind on payments to Russia for energy and could very well start deducting those IOU's out of the estimated loss from Crimea.



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 08:25 PM
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crucified
reply to post by Speotyto
 


I thought Crimea already joined Russia?


It depends on what side of the argument you are on.

While Ukraine (and the bulk of countries on the planet) are of the mindset Russia's actions in Crimea and Crimea's referendum were not lawful and refused to accept the results / actions taken.

If you are on the other then Crimea voted and joined Russia.

One of those sticking points that will most likely result in a body count to determine which answer / side is correct.



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