Timing of the Rapture: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib(Thanks to Graphuto)

ServantOfTheLamb
Because it mentions a shortened tribulation for the elect as does some of the verses he listed...

Now the word translated Life in verse 20 literally means flesh. Meaning we all would have experienced physical death if God did not shorten the days for the elect. The word tribulation is in this verse, and it mentions that the elect(which is most frequently talking about the Church) will have a shortened amount of days, because if they remained on Earth all of them would be killed.
v 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short".

You are taking this the wrong way round.
That passage is not describing a shortened tribulation "for the elect", in the sense that ONLY the elect experience the shortening.
It means a shortened tribulation FOR EVERYBODY.
If the elect escaped in the middle of the tribulation, that would be enough to save their lives, and the "shortening" of the tribulation would not be necessary.
At the same time, if the elect escaped in the middle of the tribulation and the tribulation continued, the fact that the elect had escaped would do nothing to prevent everybody else from getting killed.

The clear meaning of the passage is that the elect experience THE WHOLE of the tribulation, and that is what makes it necessary for the tribulation to be cut short, so that the lives of the elect won't be extinguished.

PS I see that the poster above me has made the same point. Apologies for duplication.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Why does that become the question ? There are scriptures that suggest we will see men fainting from the fear on the Lord . We will see Him and have no fear but for the ones that have rejected Him it's a different story .As to the timing we really don't know but to the season that is what we are observing ..

reply to post by DISRAELI

PS I see that the poster above me has made the same point. Apologies for duplication.

No worries, you explained it better than I did lol

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Ill contribute more info later, but for now, I will simply state that the rapture is Pretribulational ONLY...no if's, and's, or but's.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, the Parable of the Virgins states that the Body/Bride of Christ will be removed in its entirety at once, and the stagglers will have to "watch for the Return of the Son of Man", for they will "know not the day or hour" of His 2nd Advent. Why? Because Jesus will cut the Tribulation short "for the sake of the elect".

Notice how Jesus likens His 2nd Advent to the Flood of Noah's day. Noah began loading the ark 7 days before the Flood, therefore, the Tribulation must last 7 years before the Flood of Fire.

The "one man will be left and one will be taken" speach by Jesus, is NOT the Rapture, but the Baptism of Fire or the Separation of the Wheat from the Tares at the 2nd Advent.

We are on Church-time now. The tribulation is Israel-time, the 70th week to be exact. The Church cannot occupy Israel's time anymore than Israel can occupy the Church's time.

Rapture is Pretribulational, end of discussion.

I think you guys are mixing up "tribulation" and "God's Wrath"

From my understanding :

The tribulation comes from the Anti-Christ, when he is severely persecuting the church and having people killed for not taking the mark of the beast.

Then comes the Rapture, and THEN comes the pouring out of God's wrath.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Tribulation, then the Rapture, and then the pouring out of God's wrath.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

This is talking about the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman Legions under Titus in 70 AD.
The amount of human suffering caused by this was so great that the people involved were afraid that God would have to put an end to it by killing basically everyone in the world.
Since there were all these people (the elect) who were the saved, and those who were to be saved in the future, God put an end to it by way of having a rather swift victory for the Romans, rather than an even more protracted siege.
This might seem odd to us today but that was the way people thought back then.

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

A million Jews died from that war in 70 in the fall of Jerusalem because the city was packed since the siege started when they were gathered to celebrate the Passover, and a lot of people nearby were taking refuge in it from the pillaging going on by the rebel forces.
This was a number greater than the population of any city in the Empire outside of Rome itself, so was the greatest disaster from a single event in history when calculating the impact based on the percentage of the overall population of the world.

If we are in the great tribulation, then why has it been going on for so long?

People who are into a future tribulation all have this way of avoiding the obvious explanation by pretending that Revelation wasn't written until 90 AD, basing that on a misunderstanding of the history of that time and seeing it as the greatest time of Christian persecution by Rome.
Even though that theory was disproven a hundred years ago, they persist in going with this late date because to go with the best scholarship which says that Revelation was probably the earliest book written in the New Testament, their whole system of prophetic interpretation would collapse.

I once saw someone dismiss Francis Schaeffer, outright dismiss everything that the man had to say, because he took the "wrong" position on the tribulation and the Rapture.

In the history of everything Christian, I can't think of many stupider things to argue about than millennialism... who cares? When it happens... IF it happens, it will happen and all arguments are of no consequence. Your salvation doesn't depend, in any way on whether it's pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or whatever. Get right with God, and you have nothing to worry about, whether the Rapture is tomorrow, or you get hit by a bus tomorrow.

OTOH, I've never believed in the Rapture, anyway, so maybe I just don't get it.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

the Parable of the Virgins states that the Body/Bride of Christ will be removed in its entirety at once . . .

This parable of Jesus, like most of them, are about the end of Jerusalem as a Jewish center, and the loss of their temple.
They forfeited their privileged position by rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


The rapture is after the tribulation, but before God pours out His wrath, in Rev 7:9. It is truly astonishing at how a simple to understand book like Revelation can be the source of so much bickering and controversy within the church. You're right... regardless of one's position or opinion regarding the timing of the rapture, it has nothing to do with salvation. In Revelation 13 the Beast(Antichrist) is given the power to make war with the Saints and overcome them, and I think this is mainly because the vast majority of Christians have fallen for the pre-trib lie and are going to be caught so off guard by the world around them. They are looking up, waiting for some secret rapture that supposedly could happen at any moment. They need to stop believing what man has said on the issue, and start believing what God said about it. I honestly believe that John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield, the so called "founding fathers" of the pre-trib rapture lie, split Hell wide open when they died.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


Glad someone else here sees what is plainly written. Again, as has been said before, when the rapture takes places has NOTHING to do with ones salvation.

adjensen
................................

OTOH, I've never believed in the Rapture, anyway, so maybe I just don't get it.

AD,
Not getting THIS is a good thing ...since it is false.

The scriptures say NOTHING of a "rapture" of a group of people or a tribulation it is ALL extrapolation to fit a theory.The book of Revelation is the main source and NOTHING in it is predictions of past, present or future historical events.

My desire is the people that "really believe" this stuff would examine what they are saying.The plausibility level is very low.The thinness of the evidence of what they call "obvious" proof" of a rapture, a tribulation ,"the Antichrist",the creator God torturing ANY of his creation in an eternal hell because they don't believe a religious doctrine of man etc etc..is far from credible.

I am not condemning anyone for their false beliefs it is part of their Belief System however none of those things have anything to do with The Truth.The good news is simple.Yahoshua is the deliver(savior) of ALL of mankind...period...no exceptions. Any other religious extrapolation from the scriptures saying otherwise is false.There are a multitude of scriptures that say EXACTLY that good news because..it's the GOOD news !!!).

It is also common reason by the character and nature of Yahoshua (Yahweh IS salvation).However if someone "wants" to believe that Yahoshua isn't the savior of ALL mankind that's what they will do.FORTUNATELY for them it has NOTHING to do with their salvation or anyone elses.However it will profoundly effect their life..and not in a good way.There are billions of evidences of proof of that.

Yahoshua had some very,very good solid advice about life...don't worry about ANY tomorrow.....it doesn't help...at ALL.

reply to post by Rex282

The thinness of the evidence of what they call "obvious" proof" of a rapture, a tribulation ,"the Antichrist",the creator God torturing ANY of his creation in an eternal hell because they don't believe a religious doctrine of man etc etc..is far from credible.

Because it is only meant to serve one purpose, which is to facilitate the consolidation of the military conquest of the zionists in Palestine, by the complacency of nominal Christians who believe that it is destiny and can not be stopped, and that the very effort would spell the doom of whoever was so foolish as to try.

reply to post by jmdewey60


May I ask a question of you jmDewey?

Then why do the Muslims acknowledge that Jews were in Jerusalem in the seventh century? Over 600+ years later, Jews were still in Jerusalem. How you account for that?

The Islamic invasion and ensuing Crusades weren't just little skirmishes here and there, so the fall of Jerusalem had nothing to do with the Jewish people other than the fall of the temple, which Jesus said would happen. These Jews certainly were not Khazarians, like you constantly want to refer to. Mohammed acknowledged the Jews were still in Israel, that can't be disputed from either side. But let's look at what Jesus said

Matthew 24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

OK, fall of the temple. But then here is a totally different message, one not related to the temple

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice here, three different questions.1: What shall this be (how will the temple fall) 2: What is the sign of your coming (He hasn't left yet) and 3: The end of the world.

After giving them a run down of what is going to happen, He says

Matthew 24: 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Notice here, He says ALL nations. In 70 AD, were the disciples hated by all nations? No, by 70 AD, they were still predominantly in three areas-- Asia Minor, Rome and Israel.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Had that happened by 70 AD? I think we can agree that it had not happened by 70 AD. So this is a far more future reference, one that starts in Israel and ultimately end in Israel. But it happens far beyond 70 AD.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Over 600+ years later, Jews were still in Jerusalem. How you account for that?

I account for it by there being 600 years for a lot of things to happen. Later, the Jews in Jerusalem were killed by the Crusaders.

These Jews certainly were not Khazarians, like you constantly want to refer to.

Those are the ones living in Palestine now and calling themselves Israel, who are mostly Polish.

Notice here, three different questions.1: What shall this be (how will the temple fall) 2: What is the sign of your coming (He hasn't left yet) and 3: The end of the world.

That is how Greek was used back then, to link parts of a sentence together with "and", so really indicates against you implication, by showing how they belong to a unit, since they didn't use punctuation like we do today to create separate sentences.
A lot of times the English translations will omit the "and"s since they aren't necessary in that it is now structured in a way where we can understand where one sentence ends and another begins.
For some reason the translators felt it was appropriate for this verse to leave the "and"s in.
It is an interpretive decision that we are not obligated to follow.
Where it is translated "world", the Greek word is "Age".
The prophecy was for the end of the age, which it was, the end of the age of the temple cult, with the demise of the temple.
His "coming" was the visitation of vengeance.

Notice here, He says ALL nations. In 70 AD, were the disciples hated by all nations? No, by 70 AD, they were still predominantly in three areas-- Asia Minor, Rome and Israel.

The other places where this is used in Matthew, it is translated as "gentiles", so I don't think it means every country recognized by the UN, but the countries that the Apostles went into.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Had that happened by 70 AD? I think we can agree that it had not happened by 70 AD. So this is a far more future reference, one that starts in Israel and ultimately end in Israel. But it happens far beyond 70 AD.

I think this was specific to the people he was talking to. That if they persevere through adversity, that they will be successful.
They came to Jesus in private, and he (in my opinion) saw this as fear on their parts as to what was going to happen to them personally.

jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Notice here, three different questions.1: What shall this be (how will the temple fall) 2: What is the sign of your coming (He hasn't left yet) and 3: The end of the world.

That is how Greek was used back then, to link parts of a sentence together with "and", so really indicates against you implication, by showing how they belong to a unit, since they didn't use punctuation like we do today to create separate sentences.
A lot of times the English translations will omit the "and"s since they aren't necessary in that it is now structured in a way where we can understand where one sentence ends and another begins.
For some reason the translators felt it was appropriate for this verse to leave the "and"s in.
It is an interpretive decision that we are not obligated to follow.

edit on 21-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

JmDewey

Come on. That's really a far stretch. You need to come up with some better explanation.

So then JmDewey, prove from an original document that and was omitted. Don't tell us what a commentator said, because JmDewey, this is your own interpretation that you have to squeezed into your conspiracy theory.

You say you have done the research, so show us the original document with and in the sentence.

reply to post by WarminIndy

. . . show us the original document with and in the sentence.

Matthew 3:1 and 2

1 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
(New American Standard Bible)

1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

In the first example, the translator decided the "and" was unnecessary because the two verses in the English, with punctuation, are clearly one sentence.