Update: Malaysian military now reveals that the plane reappeared elsewhere

reply to post by Mamatus


Good post, we need more fact based intuition here for sure. When I served in the Navy, I was a radar operator on-board. 'IFF', or Information Friend Or Foe, is a device that acts as a signature to a Pulse Doppler radar ping, that sends information back to the transmitter (which I am sure you are aware of) It gives numerical code to the radar operator, identifying the craft in three segments. 1.Who do you belong to, 2.Who are you, 3. What are you doing. Is it possible to turn this off, mid flight? I understand that in a number of cases some nations/factions outside of the civilian designated codes, where stripping them from airliners and 'bolting' them onto military aircraft to try to gain an advantage. Obviously, with the more advanced radar systems now, we can identify what an aircraft is, based on speed, course, altitude, behavior and other factors.

To me the radar ping (should it not have been turned off) would still send the signature back to the operators console, and record it. So as for the 'Unidentified' contacts in the areas, it would have been identified as airliner MH370, that carried that particular IFF code

What we know, the plane was going somewhere. It changed course for whatever reason, quite literally disappeared from radar... That cannot just happen, they cant just not return back a radar ping, its a solid object in the air. Wherever it is, its been 3+ days now. If it was taken somewhere else, its there now. If it has been 'taken-taken' its odd that they would keep it for such a long time and not return it. It can't be possible that the aircraft is still airborne for that period of time, unless an air to air refuel has taken place, and I am not even sure if that is possible with that particular commercial airliner.

I've just posted this -

"The airline's losses ballooned by 171 percent in 2013 to 1.17 billion ringgit from a loss of 431 million ringgit in 2012 and it was already forecasting a tough 2014 thanks to competition from low cost carriers that forced it to cut prices." on another thread.

If they're finanacially upto their necks and going further down hill, how much would the insurance payout be on a 777..

andy1972
If they're finanacially upto their necks and going further down hill, how much would the insurance payout be on a 777..

Are you referring to a payout to the airline? If so most of them do not own their fleets but lease them due to the high outlay for the aircraft. Last time I looked a 777 was $375,000,000 but the airline would not even get remotely close to that amount.

reply to post by matadoor


an EMP would be absolutely devastating. i think maybe even more so than an actual explosion.

thing is though even with a new paint job, i don't see that plane getting very far in controlled airspace. if this plane comes back on the map it's going to stick out like a sore thumb.

however, if you can fool air traffic control into thinking the plane is perhaps a legitimate plane with a clean record.... well then, i think the possibilities could be very frightening. and again i'm going to bring up the possibility of cloning an existing planes transponder information to make this scenario possible. that would allow the plane into controlled airspace and anything can happen from there.

now what if the 20 or so people on board involved with the cloaking tech were kept alive and made to work for whoever is behind this. could they then be made to turn the plane invisible to radar against their will? essentially making a flying invisible bomb?


i just can't get over the passengers on board being involved in cloaking technology. i have a really hard time believing that isn't a coincidence.

deckdel

If the passangers were alive and well in that flight, and having discovered they were flying low level - above Malaysia - I guess they would have started calling with cell phones. More so, if they've seen on the screens plane diverting from the planned route.

no they wouldn't have.... if the pilot depressurized the cabin they would all be out cold, plus he probably disconnected the gps so they can't see where they're flying.

Well after roughly going through the past 29 pages its time for my input, Flying up to northern Canada for work most people don't turn their phones off in those small 30+ passenger twin prop planes. That being said around 10 thousand feet you lose your signal completely and ive never seen it come back due to the height and out of range you are from the towers, its not until you descend that the Signal comes back, till you land in the bush and its gone again. Ive flown with United airlines a few times with WIFI on board so that particularly possible with this much more modern and larger aircraft. However what is still bugging me is that with all those passengers on board and assuming a good percentage of them have modern cell phones, why cant the gps be read off them, I doubt everyone's phone was off or in airplane mode. I'm 99% sure every flight Ive ever been on I knew someone who had their phone on the whole trip ( commercial flights) . or is this just something that happens in North America?

just my two bewildered cents......

reply to post by CallmeRaskolnikov


Mate, you cant make an airliner invisible like that, it would have to have a complete redesign. As far as I know, there is no way you can make Pulse Doppler pings, not hit a solid object, skew it, make it appear smaller, sure, with the right amount of conveying edges to bounce it off and around (see image). Not an airliner of that nature, not with the technology that the 'average' government body has. That said, if it was one of the Domino crew, then there would have to be a very good reason to carry out such an operation. 'That said' also, how do we know the cost/delivery to make such a project tick. With a near limitless budget, who knows. I still think there would have to be a fantastic reason for one of the shady lot to take an interest in the plane, the crew. or its cargo.

From what we know.

- plane turned off transponder then turned
- 20 min later plane turned off GPS
- flew southwest over Malaysia into the Indian Ocean
- Pilot had flight simulator at home for 777 aircraft

so....... let me put my tinfoil hat on. The pilot had been practicing this for a while, he picked this flight, red eye where its night and most passengers would be asleep. He turned off the transponder to be less detectable by civilian radar, then 20 min later he remembered (in his nervousness) that the plane had a GPS system with the passengers on board able to see where he's flying, so he promptly turned that off. AT that point they have no clue where they are because their seat maps are off. He flew the plane to a remote island with a long enough airstrip where the plane sits safely, hidden from satellites for whatever reason.
The Maldives come to mind, very remote, with a lot of Iranian / Muslim influence. The plane had enough fuel to reach them and it would have taken approximately 5 hours. THe approximate time the US is saying the plane flew for after it was last detected. Flying to the Maldives they could have easily avoided any country's Airspace, flying low deep into the Indian ocean. There was also a report from Reuters that said the radar suggested it flew "deliberately" towards the Andeman Islands. This matches my tin foil hat theory.

This could be an elaborate plan to use the plane later in a 911 style terrorist attack somewhere in the world, most likely somewhere in south east Asia. I don't see how they would use it anywhere else, they would have to use it somewhere close by where it gives them a fighting chance to get to their target. Anywhere in the US, or Europe or even Israel they would get shot down right away.

AugustusMasonicus

andy1972
If they're finanacially upto their necks and going further down hill, how much would the insurance payout be on a 777..

Are you referring to a payout to the airline? If so most of them do not own their fleets but lease them due to the high outlay for the aircraft. Last time I looked a 777 was $375,000,000 but the airline would not even get remotely close to that amount.

edit on 14-3-2014 by AugustusMasonicus because: Network dude has no beer

Malaysian Airlines is a member of ONEWORLD.
It has also been a money loser from day one...

andy1972
Malaysian Airlines is a member of ONEWORLD.
It has also been a money loser from day one...

Either way, they most likely lease their fleet which would leave them with a marginal insurance payout if they were not found negligible. The leasing agency would recoup the larger amount on the aircraft.

reply to post by D0M1N0


Air to air refueling is not possible with that aircraft in the configuration it was in. Further, I am unaware of any Boeing 777 which has been configured for such a task. So, that option is pretty much out.

Additionally, air to air refueling is a quite dangerous undertaking, and not something undertaken by civilian commercial aircraft with paying PAX on board.

You have made some good points about primary radar signatures (i.e. that they just can't be 'turned off'). There are numerous other anomalies which remain unaccounted for...

1. Regional Air Traffic Control "Centers" don't just sit there and wait for an aircraft to show up on their secondary radar systems...they already know they're coming. They know in advance the airline, flight number and type of aircraft, even in advance of the transponder squawk showing up on their screens. They know this because a flight plan has been filed. It's odd no one is talking about this part. Further to the point, the regional ATC "Center" which has the aircraft under its control doesn't just automatically lose it when they hand the aircraft off. So much like the receiving 'center', the sending 'center' doesn't lose contact with the transponder just because they've handed them off...the aircraft is just no longer under their control.

The point here is; when an commercial aircraft (or any aircraft for that matter) loses a transponder (and it does happen) it's actually a pretty big deal. The center in control will attempt to contact the aircraft on the center frequency and advise them they've lost the transponder signal and to check its operational status. Failing that, in this case, the receiving center would immediately contact the sending center to see if they were still in contact with the aircraft. This situation would escalate almost immedately into a serious incident. It's not like Malaysian ATC just turned off all their gear and went home after they handed MAS 370 off to Viet Nam ATC. There would have been much discussion going on about losing the aircraft transponder squawk.

2. The second problem I have with the whole story is the timing. Unless the crew on the flight deck were actively involved in turning off identification equipment, it would have been virtually impossible for anyone else aboard the aircraft to have known the precise moment when the hand off between ATC 'centers' would take place. The action itself is literally as fast as the push of a button.

The pilots AND the two involved ATC centers all know what's going on. The pilots already know the new frequency even before the handing off center tells them (because again, it's part of the flight plan). The verbal instruction from the handing off ATC is really only a confirmation of a frequency the pilots already know. They've already set the new frequency into the VHF radios before the hand off. So literally, the frequency on the left side of the VHF is the current freq, and the freq on the right is the new one. There's a button between the two with a double ended arrow. When you push the button it toggles between the two frequencies.

So, in reality, what this sounds like is "Malaysia 370 contact xxxx Center on xxx.xx" And, Malaysia 370 will come back with "Contact xxxx Center on xxx.xx, Malaysia 370....Good night". (so there's the 'good night' reference). Immediately after this the PIC will push the button between the two ATC freqs and you would hear..."xxxx Center, Malaysia 370 zero two zero at flight level 350" The receiving ATC will have been expecting this. And the dialog would continue...

So, the point here is; if someone where going to take over the aircraft right at the hand off point, it would be almost impossible for it to be anyone else but the crew itselft. Remember, the transponders (and all other comms) were apparently turned off right at the hand off point.

Odd.

AugustusMasonicus

andy1972
Malaysian Airlines is a member of ONEWORLD.
It has also been a money loser from day one...

Either way, they most likely lease their fleet which would leave them with a marginal insurance payout if they were not found negligible. The leasing agency would recoup the larger amount on the aircraft.

One world win an insurance claim (which maybe elevated if its terrorist related) and then they shut down Malaysia Airlines, a dead duck of a business...

They win money and don't loose more.

Crakeur
reply to post by Mamatus

 

is it even possible for a plane of this size to fly to a different airport undetected, land, and remain hidden for this long?

We're talking a large plane, flying through public airspace, to another country. Wouldn't that country have to know that the plane was coming in?

Don't countries have defense systems in place that would detect a large aircraft coming into their territory?

Well it isn't difficult if it's the country of intended destination, mean China

andy1972
One world win an insurance claim (which maybe elevated if its terrorist related) and then they shut down Malaysia Airlines, a dead duck of a business...

They win money and don't loose more.

One world is just a business group, they do not provide lease financing, all the airlines would go through leasing agencies such as banks. It is identical to when you lease an automobile except on a much larger scale.

andy1972

AugustusMasonicus

andy1972
If they're finanacially upto their necks and going further down hill, how much would the insurance payout be on a 777..

Are you referring to a payout to the airline? If so most of them do not own their fleets but lease them due to the high outlay for the aircraft. Last time I looked a 777 was $375,000,000 but the airline would not even get remotely close to that amount.

edit on 14-3-2014 by AugustusMasonicus because: Network dude has no beer

Malaysian Airlines is a member of ONEWORLD.
It has also been a money loser from day one...

most airlines these days re "money losers". The cost of operating an airline is substantial and many are in the red.

CNN just reported a 5.5 quake in the Ademan Islands... which happens to be where some think this plane couldve been heading...

More weirdness and coincidences

Flyingclaydisk
reply to post by D0M1N0

 

Air to air refueling is not possible with that aircraft in the configuration it was in. Further, I am unaware of any Boeing 777 which has been configured for such a task. So, that option is pretty much out.

Additionally, air to air refueling is a quite dangerous undertaking, and not something undertaken by civilian commercial aircraft with paying PAX on board.

You have made some good points about primary radar signatures (i.e. that they just can't be 'turned off'). There are numerous other anomalies which remain unaccounted for...

1. Regional Air Traffic Control "Centers" don't just sit there and wait for an aircraft to show up on their secondary radar systems...they already know they're coming. They know in advance the airline, flight number and type of aircraft, even in advance of the transponder squawk showing up on their screens. They know this because a flight plan has been filed. It's odd no one is talking about this part. Further to the point, the regional ATC "Center" which has the aircraft under its control doesn't just automatically lose it when they hand the aircraft off. So much like the receiving 'center', the sending 'center' doesn't lose contact with the transponder just because they've handed them off...the aircraft is just no longer under their control.

The point here is; when an commercial aircraft (or any aircraft for that matter) loses a transponder (and it does happen) it's actually a pretty big deal. The center in control will attempt to contact the aircraft on the center frequency and advise them they've lost the transponder signal and to check its operational status. Failing that, in this case, the receiving center would immediately contact the sending center to see if they were still in contact with the aircraft. This situation would escalate almost immedately into a serious incident. It's not like Malaysian ATC just turned off all their gear and went home after they handed MAS 370 off to Viet Nam ATC. There would have been much discussion going on about losing the aircraft transponder squawk.

2. The second problem I have with the whole story is the timing. Unless the crew on the flight deck were actively involved in turning off identification equipment, it would have been virtually impossible for anyone else aboard the aircraft to have known the precise moment when the hand off between ATC 'centers' would take place. The action itself is literally as fast as the push of a button.

The pilots AND the two involved ATC centers all know what's going on. The pilots already know the new frequency even before the handing off center tells them (because again, it's part of the flight plan). The verbal instruction from the handing off ATC is really only a confirmation of a frequency the pilots already know. They've already set the new frequency into the VHF radios before the hand off. So literally, the frequency on the left side of the VHF is the current freq, and the freq on the right is the new one. There's a button between the two with a double ended arrow. When you push the button it toggles between the two frequencies.

So, in reality, what this sounds like is "Malaysia 370 contact xxxx Center on xxx.xx" And, Malaysia 370 will come back with "Contact xxxx Center on xxx.xx, Malaysia 370....Good night". (so there's the 'good night' reference). Immediately after this the PIC will push the button between the two ATC freqs and you would hear..."xxxx Center, Malaysia 370 zero two zero at flight level 350" The receiving ATC will have been expecting this. And the dialog would continue...

So, the point here is; if someone where going to take over the aircraft right at the hand off point, it would be almost impossible for it to be anyone else but the crew itselft. Remember, the transponders (and all other comms) were apparently turned off right at the hand off point.

Odd.

Perfect and thanks for the explanation. I thought it worked just as you described. It's why I can't buy the excuses for not reporting this thing missing for 6 hours. At the very least, both ends of the flight monitoring would have to know much sooner that the flight's equipment was disabled. So we can assume it either wasn't disabled or they knew exactly where the flight was heading, and if that wasn't Beijing, then they similarly knew why it wasn't heading there. The story they're trying to sell is really outlandish.

PhotonEffect
CNN just reported a 5.5 quake in the Ademan Islands... which happens to be where some think this plane couldve been heading...

More weirdness and coincidences

What type of quake can a nuke cause if its detonated underground.....at it's epicente that is..maybe a mini suitcase nuke type thingy...

The earthquakes in the region typically happen at depths below 35k, which would make them completely irrelevant to the missing aircraft. Additionally, this is a high seismic activity area and earthquakes can occur weekly.

AugustusMasonicus

The earthquakes in the region typically happen at depths below 35k, which would make them completely irrelevant to the missing aircraft. Additionally, this is a high seismic activity area and earthquakes can occur weekly.

An earthquake causes the sea bed to crack releasing a hue amount of methane to rise into the air causing the aircraft to drop like a stone without time to respond as the air intake drops to zero...the Maldives triangle...not..