Kerry to visit Ukraine on Tuesday in show of support following Russian seizure

reply to post by smurfy


The status of the Crimea, for some reason, is being portrayed as something its not.

It is not separate from Ukraine. It is a part of Ukraine and it enjoys limited - autonomy. They are still a part of Ukraine, and are still subordinate to the government of Ukraine. That status does not change simply because there are 12k Russian troops in the region illegally occupying sovereign Ukrainian territory.

Source

Crimea is an autonomous republic within the unitary state of Ukraine, with the Presidential Representative serving as a governor and replacing once established a post of president. The legislative body is a 100-seat parliament, the Supreme Council of Crimea.[49]

The executive power is represented by the Council of Ministers, headed by a Chairman who is appointed and dismissed by the Verkhovna Rada, with the consent of the President of Ukraine.[5][50] The authority and operation of the Supreme Council and the Council of Ministers of Crimea are determined by the Constitution of Ukraine and other the laws of Ukraine, as well as by regular decisions carried out by the Supreme Council of Crimea.[50]

Justice is administered by courts, as part of the judicial system of Ukraine.[50]

Elections and parties[edit]

While not an official body controlling Crimea, the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People is a representative body of the Crimean Tatars, which could address grievances to the Ukrainian central government, the Crimean government, and international bodies.[51]

During the 2004 presidential elections, Crimea largely voted for the presidential candidate Viktor Yanukovych. In both the 2006 Ukrainian parliamentary elections and the 2007 Ukrainian parliamentary elections, the Yanukovych-led Party of Regions also won most of the votes from the region, as they did in the 2010 Crimean parliamentary election.[52]

In Independent Ukraine[edit]

See also: Autonomous Republic of Crimea

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, Crimea became part of the newly independent Ukraine, which led to tensions between Russia and Ukraine.[nb 1] With the Black Sea Fleet based on the peninsula, worries of armed skirmishes were occasionally raised. Crimean Tatars began returning from exile and resettling in Crimea.

On 26 February 1992, the Verkhovniy Sovet (the Crimean parliament) renamed the ASSR the Republic of Crimea and proclaimed self-government on 5 May 1992[29][30] (which was yet to be approved by a referendum held 2 August 1992[31]) and passed the first Crimean constitution the same day.[31] On 6 May 1992 the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution that declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[31]

On 19 May, Crimea agreed to remain part of Ukraine and annulled its proclamation of self-government but Crimean Communists forced the Ukrainian government to expand on the already extensive autonomous status of Crimea.[16]:587 In the same period, Russian president Boris Yeltsin and Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk agreed to divide the former Soviet Black Sea Fleet between Russia and the newly formed Ukrainian Navy.[32]

On 14 October 1993, the Crimean parliament established the post of President of Crimea and agreed on a quota of Crimean Tatars represented in the Council of 14. However, political turmoil continued. Amendments[clarification needed] to the constitution eased the conflict,[citation needed] but on 17 March 1995, the parliament of Ukraine intervened, scrapping the Crimean Constitution and removing Yuriy Meshkov (the President of Crimea) along with his office for his actions against the state and promoting integration with Russia.[33] After an interim constitution, the current constitution was put into effect, changing the territory's name to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea.

Following the ratification of the May 1997 Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership on friendship and division of the Black Sea Fleet, international tensions slowly eased. However, in September 2008, the Ukrainian Foreign Minister Volodymyr Ohryzko accused Russia of giving out Russian passports to the population in the Crimea and described it as a "real problem" given Russia's declared policy of military intervention abroad to protect Russian citizens.[34]

On 24 August 2009, anti-Ukrainian demonstrations were held in Crimea by ethnic Russian residents. Sergei Tsekov (of the Russian Bloc[35] and then deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament[36]) said then that he hoped that Russia would treat the Crimea the same way as it had treated South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[37] Chaos in the Ukrainian parliament erupted during a debate over the extension of the lease on a Russian naval base on 27 April 2010 after Ukraine’s parliament ratified the treaty that extends Russia's lease on a military wharf and shore installations in the Crimean port Sevastopol until 2042. Along with Verkhovna Rada, the treaty was ratified by the Russian State Duma as well.[38]

The population of Crimea is about 2 million, with about 54% ethnic Russian.

It is safe to assume that not all ethnic Russians desire to be a part of Russia. The invasion of Crimea/Ukraine by Russian forces under the guise of protecting ethnic Russians is invalid. Secondly it completely ignores the fact that there is an equal amount of people who have no link to Russia and who have no desire to be a part of Russia.

Ironic that its ok to screw them out of their land / government / country to placate a minority population via an illegal invasion and occupation.

I am praying that Kerry gets up to the podium and starts talking about how he loves playing the new Infinity game for xbox 360 and how he wants to know if anyone has the Randall character for one of his grand kids whom cant seem to find it at any Target or Walmart in his area.

A little humor would put an end to all this garbage but of course he wouldnt DARE try that!

Salamandy
I am praying that Kerry gets up to the podium and starts talking about how he loves playing the new Infinity game for xbox 360 and how he wants to know if anyone has the Randall character for one of his grand kids whom cant seem to find it at any Target or Walmart in his area.

A little humor would put an end to all this garbage but of course he wouldnt DARE try that!

He could always go into the routine of pointing out the parallels of the Russia invasion of Ukraine in comparison to Hitler's invasion of Russia. The funny points are the almost seamless manner in which Russia today is using the exact same book and rhetoric Hitler did in order to justify an invasion / annexation.

The cherry on the parfait would be to see a downfall of Putin in the same manner as Hitler. Hopefully it will occur before Putin rips the continent apart in a selfish push to rebuild the Soviet Empire.

I would suggest we take a poll of Russian citizens but since Putin doesn't allow independent media or dissent among the Russian people.....

So we put our dreams away..

kerry is supporting a government put in place in violation of all of ukraine's constitutions
his own country should be afraid...very afraid

Danbones
kerry is supporting a government put in place in violation of all of ukraine's constitutions
his own country should be afraid...very afraid

Try again... Ignoring the fact the Ukrainian government reverted back to the 2004 Constitution does not make their actions illegal. As has been pointed out, and then ignored because people don't like the fact it undermines their position, the Ukrainian governments actions were lawful under Ukrainian law.

By all means though feel free to specifically explain how Ukraine's government actions are illegal.

Source

2004 and 2010 amendments and 2014 return to 2004 amendments[edit]

For more details on this topic, see Imperative mandate (provision in the Constitution of Ukraine).

On December 8, 2004, the parliament passed Law No. 2222-IV amending the constitution.[5] The law was approved with a 90 percent majority (402 ayes, 21 nays, and 19 abstentions; 300 ayes required for passage) simultaneously with other legislative measures aimed at resolving the 2004 presidential election crisis. It was signed almost immediately in the parliamentary chamber by the outgoing President Leonid Kuchma and promulgated on the same day.

These amendments weakened the power of the President of Ukraine; she/he lost the power to nominate the Prime Minister of Ukraine and this became the task of the parliament solely.[6] The President could only appoint the Minister of Defence and Foreign Minister.[6] The President also lost the right to dismiss members of the Cabinet of Ukraine but gained the right to dissolve parliament.[6] If no coalition in parliament could be formed to appoint a Prime Minister the President would have no choice but to call new parliamentary elections.[7]

The 2004 constitutional amendments were passed in the Parliament only with limited consultation and discussion between political forces, in the context of the Orange Revolution. They therefore attracted criticism from several internal (Ukrainian political parties) and external bodies (the Council of Europe, the European Parliament and the Venice Commission).[8]

The amendments took force unconditionally on January 1, 2006.[7] The remaining amendments took force on May 25, 2006, when the new parliament assembled after the 2006 elections.

On October 1, 2010, the Constitutional Court of Ukraine overturned the 2004 amendments, considering them unconstitutional.[9][10] The Court had started to consider the case on the political reform in 2004 under a motion from 252 coalition lawmakers regarding the constitutionality of this reform of July 14, 2010.[11][12][13] The 2010 nullification decision was highly controversial. The Council of Europe's Human Rights Commissioner received several reports alleging that the resignation of four judges in the run-up to the decision occurred as a result of extensive pressure by the executive.[14] On November 18, 2010 The Venice Commission published its report titled The Opinion of the Constitutional Situation in Ukraine in Review of the Judgement of Ukraine's Constitutional Court, in which it stated "It also considers highly unusual that far-reaching constitutional amendments, including the change of the political system of the country - from a parliamentary system to a parliamentary presidential one - are declared unconstitutional by a decision of the Constitutional Court after a period of 6 years. ... As Constitutional Courts are bound by the Constitution and do not stand above it, such decisions raise important questions of democratic legitimacy and the rule of law".[15]

On February 21, 2014 the parliament passed a law that reinstated the December 8, 2004 amendments of the constitution.[16] This was passed under simplified procedure without any decision of the relevant committee and was passed in the first and the second reading in one voting by 386 deputies.[16] The law was approved by 140 MPs of the Party of Regions, 89 MPs of Batkivshchyna, 40 MPs of UDAR, 32 of the Communist Party, and 50 independent lawmakers.[16]

reply to post by Xcathdra

He could always go into the routine of pointing out the parallels of the Russia invasion of Ukraine in comparison to Hitler's invasion of Russia.

One also could compare the Russian 'invasion' of Ukraine via Crimea to the Russian invasion of Iran.

en.wikipedia.org...

But of course the current US president is no Truman.

Yes ?

reply to post by neo96


Its interesting you invoked Iran. That has been another factor being discussed with regards to Putin's long term strategy. Without access to a warm water port (via black sea / M.E.), Russia would be cut off from the ability to assist Iran / Syria should things go south in either country.

The other factor that will come into play, depending on the outcome of Crimea, is Turkey. While the Bosporus is considered an international waterway the restriction on naval military vessels can be invoked.

As for Obama's ability as a leader - The only thing holding him erect is the starch in his shirts and he has ethics that would raise eyebrows in the court of Caligula.

I am not a fan of war and believe diplomacy should always come first. However, there will be times when diplomacy, no matter how hard its applied, just will not work. I don't relish the idea of a second cold war. At the same time allowing a nation to be invaded and portions annexed is unacceptable as well. Appeasement does not work and the more we go down that road the more we are going to see countries pushing a more aggressive agenda. Of all of those countries, Russia and China will have the most to gain.

While I agree, to an extent, of reducing our military and closing down overseas bases and working on things at home, there is no point in having a military if we are not willing to apply it when its needed. There is no point in having a military and signing agreements if we are not going to uphold those agreements.

I am curious who Obama is going to blame for his inability to act.

A decade of military adventurism hurt our standing world wide.

Refusing to honor treaty obligations will finish us off.

Xcathdra

Salamandy
I am praying that Kerry gets up to the podium and starts talking about how he loves playing the new Infinity game for xbox 360 and how he wants to know if anyone has the Randall character for one of his grand kids whom cant seem to find it at any Target or Walmart in his area.

A little humor would put an end to all this garbage but of course he wouldnt DARE try that!

He could always go into the routine of pointing out the parallels of the Russia invasion of Ukraine in comparison to Hitler's invasion of Russia. The funny points are the almost seamless manner in which Russia today is using the exact same book and rhetoric Hitler did in order to justify an invasion / annexation.

The cherry on the parfait would be to see a downfall of Putin in the same manner as Hitler. Hopefully it will occur before Putin rips the continent apart in a selfish push to rebuild the Soviet Empire.

I would suggest we take a poll of Russian citizens but since Putin doesn't allow independent media or dissent among the Russian people.....

So we put our dreams away..

edit on 2-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I dont know... the Hitler comparison routine was played to death on George W and even Obama. Im not saying Putin is being very nice, but everybody gets compared to Hitler nowadays. Maybe he could work the Russia is bailing the Ukraine out because they are too big to fail routine?

On second thought, just stay home dude

reply to post by Xcathdra

I don't relish the idea of a second cold war.

That is not going to happen.

The cold war was about 'capitalism' fighting 'communism'.

And Putin and Russia today is as capitalist as they come.

The 'godfather' mob ran Russia.

Capitalism fighting Capitalism.

Or one could say America has become communist, and we would be fighting 'capitalism'.

If we were ever to get involved.

Salamandy

Xcathdra

Salamandy
I am praying that Kerry gets up to the podium and starts talking about how he loves playing the new Infinity game for xbox 360 and how he wants to know if anyone has the Randall character for one of his grand kids whom cant seem to find it at any Target or Walmart in his area.

A little humor would put an end to all this garbage but of course he wouldnt DARE try that!

He could always go into the routine of pointing out the parallels of the Russia invasion of Ukraine in comparison to Hitler's invasion of Russia. The funny points are the almost seamless manner in which Russia today is using the exact same book and rhetoric Hitler did in order to justify an invasion / annexation.

The cherry on the parfait would be to see a downfall of Putin in the same manner as Hitler. Hopefully it will occur before Putin rips the continent apart in a selfish push to rebuild the Soviet Empire.

I would suggest we take a poll of Russian citizens but since Putin doesn't allow independent media or dissent among the Russian people.....

So we put our dreams away..

edit on 2-3-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I dont know... the Hitler comparison routine was played to death on George W and even Obama. Im not saying Putin is being very nice, but everybody gets compared to Hitler nowadays. Maybe he could work the Russia is bailing the Ukraine out because they are too big to fail routine?

On second thought, just stay home dude

My point is based on previous actions that are being repeated. Since we have already experienced WWII, knowing how it started, and then seeing the same incidents occurring now... To me, imo anyways, puts us into the position of -

A - ignoring the past and repeating history
B - acknowledging the past and taking actions to prevent it from occurring again.

We have agreements with Ukraine. What signal do we send when we sit idly by and watch a nation be invaded and annexed? If we stay out of Ukraine, ignoring our treaty obligations, we are telling the world that they can do what they want and that we wont get involved.

While some will see that as ok, I think they are not looking at the picture down the road. Its a key reason we do not negotiate with terrorist (well, previous administrations anyways). The moment its discovered that we will negotiate is the moment we lost.

Also, there is a fair number of people in on this site who have no issues seeing the destruction of the United States. If Russia / China attack the US, do you think nations that we have treaties with will come to our aid when we ask?

If we are not going to protect a nation via a treaty we signed in good faith, then why are we even signing them in the first place?

neo96
That is not going to happen.

The cold war was about 'capitalism' fighting 'communism'.

And Putin and Russia today is as capitalist as they come.

The 'godfather' mob ran Russia.

Capitalism fighting Capitalism.

Or one could say America has become communist, and we would be fighting 'capitalism'.

If we were ever to get involved.

Has Russia not started to revert back? How many "capitalists" in Russia have been put in prison on BS charges while having their business confiscated by the government of Russia? How many protestors have been arrested for simply speaking out against the Russian government? How many media outlets have been closed / sanctioned for simply reporting information the Russian government does not want in the public?

Why is it ok for Putin to invade Crimea while at the same time occupy Chechnya?

That question alone calls into question Putin's motives into question re: Crimea. If his motives are valid in Crimea, then why does he treat Chechnya in the same manner he accuses Ukraine of treating the Crimea?

reply to post by Xcathdra

Has Russia not started to revert back? How many "capitalists" in Russia have been put in prison on BS charges while having their business confiscated by the government of Russia?

I attribute that because they wouldn't play ball with Putin.

Not as a reversion back to communism just the mobs way of doing business to get rid of the competition.

Just that it's legal over there.

neo96
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Has Russia not started to revert back? How many "capitalists" in Russia have been put in prison on BS charges while having their business confiscated by the government of Russia?

I attribute that because they wouldn't play ball with Putin.

Not as a reversion back to communism just the mobs way of doing business to get rid of the competition.

Just that it's legal over there.

Businesses in the former Soviet Union were controlled via the government. That is exactly what we are seeing once again in Russia. Establishing work laws / etc is one thing. Arresting and imprisoning business leaders because they wont play ball with Putin is what happened when the Soviet Union was formed.

Free market restrictions...
Civil liberties restrictions...
arrest without charge / imprisonment without trial...
Invading a sovereign nation / annexing its land...
Willing to protect ethnic Russians while going after those who don't support Russia's invasion of Ukraine...

He might as well just return the lyrics from their national Anthem back to those of the Soviet Union.

reply to post by SLAYER69

KERRY IS A WANKER

Tindalos2013

"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext," the secretary said...

Did he really just say that.

Unless you are America 2002-2003 lol

I just sincerely hope that nothing happens to Kerry in Kiev.

reply to post by Snarl


William Hague, the UK Foreign Secretary, is en route to the Ukraine now (or has in fact arrived)

I think some other EU powers will also be in attendance.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Quite - at this point we're up the Munich crisis and the Sudetenland. The parallels are striking, especially if you consider the Georgia episode in 2008 as "Austria"...

It certainly seems though, at the moment, the West/NATO is just going to whine yet not do much beyond economic sanctions. Thing is, if we roll over here, where do we draw the line and how can we be trusted to uphold any agreements around the world. We have pledged to protect Ukraine in 1994 - if we don't stand up here, what is to stop China deciding it too wants a bit of this land grab party and go for the South China Sea?

if you see Kerry waving he actuall say's by by farewell

reply to post by stumason

Funny you keep mentioning WW2 germany and all, but have nothing to substantiate, all I have seen you do is parrot the western line. Guess thats all thats left.