Ukraine should be Europe's problem not the USA's problem

reply to post by LDragonFire


What does that have to do with anything?

The First trickling of information, is starting to come in. Much like Egypt and Syria we will find a lot of western intervention in sowing political discord and destabilization, both politically and economically.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Unfortunately, the more this unfolds it appears that there may have been some outside forces behind the coup/uprising in the Ukraine. I'd like to think the US was not involved, but we have a track record of doing exactly that.

Best example, in my opinion.....Iran 1953.

Putin gets wind of it and mobilizes his forces to the border as a way of saying "We know what you're doing and will not stand for it".

reply to post by Elijah23

Does anyone remember when Romney was running against Obama, he said he was going to be tougher with the old enemy Russia, everyone thought he was mad, relations were stable at the time, then Obama got in and passed all this Magnitsky act etc etc.. started all the anti-russian rhetoric, moved missiles closer to Russias border and thereatened them several times over Syria etc... so this was the plan all along and both parties were going to do the same...

When they couldn't draw Russia into Syria they brought the conflict a little closer then threatened putin to stay out of Ukraine when they knew He couldn't and they knew the 85% ethnic Russian Crimeans would ask for Russias help... dangerous game being played.

No.. I had not thought about that until you mentioned it. However, yes...there was talk even then which I did a bit of a double take on because it seemed out of place to what was actually happening in the world. Russia had also been tolerant and largely silent toward Iraq as we remained largely silent about Chechnya. A quid pro quo that was a bit too obviously subtle to be anything else.

Then McCain's open taunts and condemning of Putin (like a psychic now..for how little was happening clear back to 2011 on that) and the fact he'd be in violation of the Logan Act if he weren't working on behalf of the President on his Ukraine meetings with who formed the rebels and came to trigger the events of the past week or so.

You're right though..it's been a rare bipartisan kinda thing, and going back a ways too.

Too much time, too much invested in covert and overt operations, too much has been done to have western influence dominate in the Ukraine for it to be just a problem for Europe.

Make no mistake it is Russia vs USA in the Ukraine.

If Russia backs away, it will be a major victory for the west. If they invade and occupy it will be a devastating loss for the USA.

Whether Americans like it or not, the USA is very much involved in this.

Let's hope both sides pull back from this and save us all from their pissing contests.

Unfortunately everyone is involved, US/UK and the EU, and the likes of Kerry (US) and Hague (UK) aren't making things any better by going over there to talk to the Ukraine government, it's like sticking a big middle finger up at the Russians.

That being said, Kerry seems to be purposely antagonising the Russians into confrontation whereas Hague seems to be trying to be more diplomatic.

If a conflict breaks out, we seriously need to stay out of it, otherwise it will blow way out of proportion, my only hope is the UK refuses to get involved (militarily), that way the US may think twice, they don't seem to like going to war anymore without us (the UK).

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


yeah you're definitely right that its older rhetoric, I just thought that was a clear example of behind the scenes policy that wasn't part of either parties official agenda or required at the time and made no difference who America voted for.. and yeah its the same 'snookering' techniques that they'd have used against the old Soviet regime of paradigms gone by... try and create a situation where the party in question has to intervene or speak out or veto action, then use it as excellent propaganda or war rhetoric against them..

"see we told them not to do that and they've done it!..." and all the red lines that are set to unrealistic requirements... and I think Russia stayed quiet about Iraq, then pretty quite about Afghanistan then got tired of being quite during the Libya BS then got really tired of it all during the ongoing Syria manufactured crisis... so Ukraine, logically must be Russia's red line...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Ten years ago as well who'd have predicted Russia would become the voice of reason in global politics?... they're meant to be new to democracy and democratic ideals.... you know, the ones the west are spreading in the middle east...

Great idea. The last two times the US ignored a problem in Europe it only lead to 2 World Wars and about a 100 million dead. What could possibly go wrong this time? Lets just stay out of it and hope for the best, it worked so well in the past.

MrSpad
Great idea. The last two times the US ignored a problem in Europe it only lead to 2 World Wars and about a 100 million dead. What could possibly go wrong this time? Lets just stay out of it and hope for the best, it worked so well in the past.

The USA was very much involved in both WWI and WWII, how did we ignore anything back then?

And how did getting involved back then help the situation now?



Seems to me if there is a problem in Europe perhaps its best if European boys handle it as opposed to US boys handling it.

reply to post by LDragonFire

Seems to me if there is a problem in Europe perhaps its best if European boys handle it as opposed to US boys handling it.

The US is not going to ignore a major breach of international law committed by its counterpart superpower.

Geographical proximity doesn't count here, sorry.

CJCrawley
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

Seems to me if there is a problem in Europe perhaps its best if European boys handle it as opposed to US boys handling it.

The US is not going to ignore a major breach of international law committed by its counterpart superpower.

Geographical proximity doesn't count here, sorry.

Except when the US or UK et al are the ones committing the breach.

And you are correct, geographical proximity has nothing to do with it at all when they want to flout international laws.

Now, lets see, who coined the foreign policy called, pre-emptive kinetic events? I am sure it was the US not Russia.

You should educate yourself on the reasons op



en.wikipedia.org...



reply to post by LDragonFire

Mr. Putin’s outrageous conduct has violated no fewer than seven international agreements and conventions: The United Nations Charter, the Helsinki Accords, the Charter of the Council for Security and Co-operation (CSCE) in Europe, two Russian-Ukrainian agreements regarding the placement of Russia’s fleet in Crimea (with guarantees and acknowledgement of sovereignty and Ukraine’s borders), the 1997 Russia-Ukraine Friendship Agreement (with similar guarantees of sovereignty and borders), and the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, stipulating security assurances relating to Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

Ukraine should be Europe's problem not the USA's problem

The fact that Russia went into another country and 'liberated' a section of it because that section has a high percentage that speaks the same language that is spoken in Russia ... that is EVERYONE's problem. If that becomes an accepted excuse for aggressive expansion, then does that mean the USA can take over England and Australia and Canada because they speak English? Does that mean that Saudi Arabia can take over Detroit because of the very large Muslim/Arab speaking population in Detroit? Does that mean that one Spanish speaking country in South America can take over another one because of culture and language? etc etc.

This sets a dangerous precedent.

stargatetravels
You should educate yourself on the reasons op



en.wikipedia.org...



reply to post by LDragonFire

 

Mr. Putin’s outrageous conduct has violated no fewer than seven international agreements and conventions: The United Nations Charter, the Helsinki Accords, the Charter of the Council for Security and Co-operation (CSCE) in Europe, two Russian-Ukrainian agreements regarding the placement of Russia’s fleet in Crimea (with guarantees and acknowledgement of sovereignty and Ukraine’s borders), the 1997 Russia-Ukraine Friendship Agreement (with similar guarantees of sovereignty and borders), and the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, stipulating security assurances relating to Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

edit on 17-3-2014 by stargatetravels because: (no reason given)

I am sure America and the UK have broken more laws than Russia. Why is it we never hear much nor care about countries until America or the UK starks poking at them after cornering them.

Ukraine government (Kiev) went through a "takeover".

Who financed that?

Were there any "violations"?

LDragonFire

MrSpad
Great idea. The last two times the US ignored a problem in Europe it only lead to 2 World Wars and about a 100 million dead. What could possibly go wrong this time? Lets just stay out of it and hope for the best, it worked so well in the past.

The USA was very much involved in both WWI and WWII, how did we ignore anything back then?

And how did getting involved back then help the situation now?



Seems to me if there is a problem in Europe perhaps its best if European boys handle it as opposed to US boys handling it.

edit on 17-3-2014 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-3-2014 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

Your making my point for me. The US let Europe solve its own problems twice and it lead to two world wars that ended up dragging the US in. And the entire point of the US being involved is so nobodys boys have to handle it.

Actually this is a Russian - Ukranian problem.

The only people that made it a European problem are the European politicans (and NATO meddlers).

reply to post by shappy




Of course the US and UK have broken more laws.
Why dont you make a thread about it?
Instead of replying to every post that isn't sucking off russia, make your own thread about how many laws they have broken, countries invaded and dictators they have taken out.

I understand you are prob being paid to post here but you do not need to reply to every post in every thread, it's obvious.

stargatetravels
reply to post by shappy

 

Of course the US and UK have broken more laws.
Why dont you make a thread about it?
Instead of replying to every post that isn't sucking off russia, make your own thread about how many laws they have broken, countries invaded and dictators they have taken out.

I understand you are prob being paid to post here but you do not need to reply to every post in every thread, it's obvious.

Wish I was as quick to label and judge people as you are.... nah , not really.

I was always taught that arguing by raising voices and insulting is a sign of a weak argument.

shappy
Actually this is a Russian - Ukranian problem.
only peopIe that made it a European problem are the European politicans (and NATO meddlers).

edit on 17-3-2014 by shappy because: (no reason given)

You do understandstand that there is legal obligation to protect the ukraine?
Ive posted the link a post or two up.