Spooky Action at a Distance or Free Will? Ancient Quasars May Hold the Clue

Does Free Will Exist? Ancient Quasars May Hold the Clue

Do you believe in free will? Are people able to decide their own destinies, whether it’s on what continent they’ll live, who or if they’ll marry, or just where they’ll get lunch today? Or are we just the unwitting pawns of some greater cosmic mechanism at work, ticking away the seconds and steering everyone and everything toward an inevitable, predetermined fate?
Philosophical debates aside, MIT researchers are actually looking to move past this age-old argument in their experiments once and for all, using some of the most distant and brilliant objects in the Universe.

Rather than ponder the ancient musings of Plato and Aristotle, researchers at MIT were trying to determine how to get past a more recent conundrum in physics: Bell’s Theorem. Proposed by Irish physicist John Bell in 1964, the principle attempts to come to terms with the behavior of “entangled” quantum particles separated by great distances but somehow affected simultaneously and instantaneously by the measurement of one or the other — previously referred to by Einstein as “spooky action at a distance.”

I'd like to have a minute of your time. I came across this story this morning and it fired my imagination. I hope you find it so as well. This seems to be a rather interesting topic and many here may find it worthwhile to read and contemplate. We are on the verge of some major realizations in my opinion. With all the latest scientific and technical developments over the past decades and a ever increasing access to higher observational abilities things are starting to get either bizarre or obtaining a higher understanding and clarity of who we are and how we perceive ourselves and the reality around us.

I'm not going to give the impression I know exactly how this will play out or if they are onto to something here. What is interesting is that they admit there are a Loop holes and that not all is known and open to change as new discovers/realizations are made.

The age old Philosphy vs Science seems to be at play here. Could one really determine if this dictates whether or not Free will exists?

Philosopher Julian Baggini fears that, as we learn more and more about the universe, scientists are becoming increasingly determined to stamp their mark on other disciplines. Here, he challenges theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss over 'mission creep' among his peers

I've provided the second above link so those less familiar with the possible ramifications could gain a better understanding of the possible implications for us and how in the next couple of decades, or less, we may have some rather drastic changes in how we understand the world around us and why this with many of the other recent discoveries may be a major game changer either in our perceived reality or to many of our basic philosophical approaches and / or beliefs to life in general.

Back to the original article....

By using the light from objects that came into existence just shortly after the Big Bang to calibrate their detectors, the team hopes to remove any possibility of entanglement… and determine what’s really in charge of the Universe.

“I think it’s fair to say this is the final frontier, logically speaking, that stands between this enormously impressive accumulated experimental evidence and the interpretation of that evidence saying the world is governed by quantum mechanics,”

I'd like to hear what many of you have to say about this *pro, con, and other. Speculation, conjecture and theories especially are desired as well as those of a strict scientific and religious angles. This could turn out to be an rather interesting discussion.

Thank you for your time.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Here's one speculation which crossed my mind right away.

Somewhere, deep in our universe or beyond, there's an intelligent organism which mastered what we call "spooky action at a distance", so by 'reading' particles (but without influencing them) they exactly know where and what is happening across the universe, and has the abillity to 'control' us or anything out there simply by choosing what they're observing.

One thing to remember regarding time travel is current laws of physics are in favor of loop holes and therefore time travel.

Thx Slayer, another mind bending, thought provoking thread.

"Ah! But what is really going to burn your noodle is: what made them decide to do this test in the first place?"

Not too sure if this is going to work. They are going to observe objects that were created "shortly" after the Big Bang.

"Shortly" = some time after the first 300,000 years of the Big Bang according to theory. So I'm not too sure that by observing these first and early quasars that it will remove any possibility of entanglement.

I do look forward to seeing what their results are........or at least I decided to look forward to it.

Now I need some more coffee.....er......yah.....I decided that on my own....right?

IF this spooky stuff happening, is it possible, we have twin universe or maybe scattered to more than one universe ? and some sprinkle of "misaligned" particles that being observed by these scientist.

And because of this, we might be able to jump to that other universe and maybe jump back here - like The One movie ?
Just a thought

reply to post by NullVoid


I think this may open up a whole bunch of wide ranging questions. I think Alternative/parallel Universes and the like would be on the table.

SLAYER69
reply to post by NullVoid

 

I think this may open up a whole bunch of wide ranging questions. I think Alternative/parallel Universes and the like would be on the table.

www.fractalforums.com...
The quantum theorem of everything.

John Wheeler believes retroactive causality is a mirage. however - no one has built the cosmic-scale Quantum eraser yet. We'd need to keep a quanta of light busy for about 14 months. fiber optic mobius for the win?

reply to post by JamesCookieIII

.
The religious and faithful have done it, back and fro without much problem, some even choose to stay there
(its most probably on the same planet although time and geo differ a lot)
and science still trying to prove the existence of multiverse
I guess science a bit slow on this part.

I'll stop here, its useless and not suitable to elaborate further, nevertheless, it exist.
Keep searching guys!

reply to post by SLAYER69

I believe in free will. I also believe that collectively we can alter our course through time and space. Perhaps what is set in stone is what will happen if we don’t take control of our own destiny.

I think science and philosophy complement each other, no age old conflict. Actually I would encourage the two in order to help one understand the Universe better, I feel it has helped me tremendously. I guess when scientists get bored by way of stagnation in their field then there is what they are calling “mission creep”. I feel we are at a scientific dead end. A wrong turn has been made and this hindrance will impede any new understanding until we correct this mistake/wrong path. Findings in one scientific field should compliment other fields if the findings are correct. After all, the Universe works together so why can’t science?

The Universe is said to be 13.7 billion years old and 93 billion light years across. This suggests a conflict with relativity right away, faster than light travel. The big bang itself is a conflict in the laws of energy and relativity. If Gravity was not present before and during the first moments of the supposed big bang then what was the force that gave way to the explosion in the first place?

As for Quasars being the brightest and most distant objects in the Universe, look again. The work of C. Halton Arp comes to mind. He has observed a direct conflict to the above claims. If QSO’s are the brightest and most distant objects, at their respective red shift positions, then this makes them impossibly big. A single point of light that is said to be several times larger than entire galaxies. Again a violation to what we know about motion, energy and relativity.

There are huge problems in our understanding of our Universe and this is compounded by ad hoc explanations to these contradictions. What is needed, I believe, is to rethink the original theories.

Back in the 80's and 90's I read comics and the Multiverse was already a large part of the continuity...ever wonder where they got that idea?

Or is the practical abilities of science finally catching up with the theoretical/hypothetical and they are now able to test?

You've done it again op. Awesome thread!

So everything in the universe acts on everything else - regardless of distance. And because of this, things within our galaxy also act on us and influence our fate (predetermined because the galaxy is billions of years old). That's pretty crazy but it also makes perfect sense at the same time - if I have interpreted this correctly.

Scientifically speaking we can't even agree that a solar flare can influence earthquakes. Religiously speaking - if they can prove this, it confirms that there is an ultimate intelligence that knows where we are heading before we get there. Someone above asked what made them do this test to begin with. That alone confirms how something inside of us already knows the answer. Now we have to reconcile the logic with the gut and perhaps integrate the two in a way like we have never seen. Hmmm

reply to post by Dianec


Premonition, Gut feelings, intuition, hunch etc?

reply to post by SLAYER69


That and near death experience accounts - that all is connected (absolutely everything), and the peace of realizing this is liberating. No more worrying about the rat race - it's all so much easier than we make it - just work with each other and the energy around you and all will be ok. I've always had a feeling when I look up into the sky that there is something that connects us to it all. But no - I don't have anything scientific for the thread. I will say that what they are doing is great though - if all can realize it it can transform humanity for the better. It certainly can't work unless we are all on the same page (we affect one another), I say please confirm it soon.

reply to post by Dianec


Science already do say we all are interconnected already.
At sub atom - quantum entanglement, at atom level - atom bond/proton neutron, molecule level - chemical compounds/ions
I dont bother to list all at larger level. (the minimum would be gravity ?), if all fail, we are connected at the big bang/singularity . Hi!

This is from my perspective.
Since everything are interconnected, a chain reaction/ripple should happen, some would lead to predictable result and others not so, it depends on the connection type (entangle/ions/plain/physical/etc) and item level (atom?quark?stone?metal?).
At lower level the linkage and connection are strong but item is pretty much "invisible"/energy based, at higher level its connection and linkage are weaker but much more "visible"/physical.

To understand that above text
It took near light speed atom to smash another atom to break their bonds, just need electricity to separate hydrogen and oxygen and bare hands to snap some metals. And we are seeing it getting more "physical". Since touching water cause ripple, electric to water brought gas bubbles, atom smashing brought chain reaction and broken metals is need melting to put back again,its end result are calculable, known and pretty much determinable.

What this got to do with free will and religion philosophy ?
Your actions are predetermined, known, calculable and destiny was written before you are born. - Qadar and God's will, sorry Jews, your religion not clear about this.

So...where do we throw Free Will, luck, choice, control ?
If I'm tattooed "to heaven" before birth, so can I kill everybody ? I'm still going to heaven arent I ? This is where religion foundation have an upper hand

Time

We dont know whats there in future, but god knows. Muslims are very clear about this doctrine and its embedded in their religion - Qada and Qadar.
Christians have a few more interpretations.

Mostly its some form of this (from Wikipedia)...

An analogy is with someone who watches a movie for the second time, who knows what will happen next, while for the first time watcher the next move is unknown.

Its acceptable we lack knowledge about the future (Time factor), so that means - reading quasars radiation wont give you any better insight into future path/choice, only future expectation. Analogy would be - expecting hero will win over bad guys, but theres choice/path he will be knocked dead by truck before anything happen. Another would be reading 100 tarot card with 75 of them bad luck, expectation is 75% bad luck, but the choice/path might be the tarot reader shot dead before the reading. .

Bypassing the time limitation
Going back in time is bogus/lies/good for daydreaming and for bonkers scientist. If we can go back in time, we would be God himself and if you dont believe in god, it will bring up unlimited number of logic problem - grandfather killer.
Even with multiverse thrown in, you will have logic problem - the king of the hill (who hold the authority to start the big bang)

So reading quasars is pretty much like 75% tarot card, we can expect the outcome but choice/path may varies. Spooky action did give some clues, but still fall in the "expected outcome", we dont expect it but choice/path can dictate - a rhino suddenly poof up. Free will is free, but the outcome are already known, by god and him only, because we dont have Time.

As last words, I leave you with this verse.
By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience.

I think I'm blabbering too much of nothing

edit on 26-2-2014 by NullVoid because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-2-2014 by NullVoid because: (no reason given)

We had a very similar discussion near the end of this thread a few months ago. Here's a very relevant part of the discussion:

---------------------------------- START QUOTE ----------------------------------

mbkennel
Go into the Heisenberg picture. Start integrating equations of motion for a coupled system. Where's the randomness? Tell me what moment the axiomatic randomness comes in and what the physics of that is.

The evolution of the wave function is deterministic, it's the collapse of the wave function when a measurement is made which is the random part. Taking into consideration Bell's Theorem, we know that any form of a hidden variable theory cannot be true and so the only way that determinism can exist is in the form of superdeterminism, and if you want to push the philosophy of superdeterminism as being real then you need to believe that you have no free will and the words you have written in this thread were determined at the moment of the big bang or even before that.

John Bell discussed superdeterminism in a BBC interview:

There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already "knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.

Superdeterminism has also been criticized because of perceived implications regarding the validity of science itself. For example, Anton Zeilinger has commented:

We always implicitly assume the freedom of the experimentalist... This fundamental assumption is essential to doing science. If this were not true, then, I suggest, it would make no sense at all to ask nature questions in an experiment, since then nature could determine what our questions are, and that could guide our questions such that we arrive at a false picture of nature.

Further information concerning Bell’s Theorem in relation to quantum randomness:

How is it that Bell’s Theorem proves that there are no “hidden variables” in quantum mechanics? How do we know that God really does play dice with the universe?

Random Numbers Certified by Bell's Theorem

---------------------------------- END QUOTE ----------------------------------

One of my favorite ATS avatars says the following (paraphrased from memory) I was hoping this member would stop by.

Free will, or fate? No difference. I am here, whether by choice or pre determination doesn't matter.

reply to post by NullVoid


I see what your saying -

If our destiny is already determined we can never know what that is due to the fact that we cannot travel fast enough to slow time down. If we could slow time down we could eventually turn time backwards to the point of seeing our past even before "we came into being". If we could do this we would probably understand that there are certain fixed principles and certain ones that can be altered simply because we are mass - can push back onto a force.

So knowing any of this - does it change anything? Let us say consciousness could survive all of this knowing. We would realize what we're able to manipulate and what we aren't, therefore working with the universe to move us to our highest good. We would continually need to be in sync with this state in order to stay on the path because as things change out there they act on us.

It has come full circle - they have just proven the idea of God.

3n19m470
One of my favorite ATS avatars says the following (paraphrased from memory) I was hoping this member would stop by.

Free will, or fate? No difference. I am here, whether by choice or pre determination doesn't matter.

what if your mind has free will, your body is affected by determinism, and your soul has a destiny/fate? i.e. you think you have free will, but that was an illusion of circumstances your body has been through.

simultaneously, we both feel like we have free will and a destiny because based on what we do with our "free will" which is actually determinism, the world changes around you to keep your Destiny's heading analytically true.

I don't think this is the "Final Frontier" but rather the "Beginning" of a new chapter.

I don't think calibrating their detectors on quasar observations this way will actually solve the problem, but rather it seems it will inevitably create dozens of even more complex questions.

In 100 years these subjects will be looked at entirely differently than they are today.
I cannot even begin to imagine what types of discoveries are coming right around the corner in the next 10 years much less a century.

If we don't blow ourselves up or pollute ourselves to death first, that is.
We have to be alive to discover stuff gotta focus on survival.

>>>
[...] behavior of “entangled” quantum particles separated by great distances but somehow affected simultaneously and instantaneously by the measurement of one or the other
>>>

I am (sort of) familiar with the basics of quantum entanglement and had some interesting thoughts recently.

We still have this idea of a "time" which is linear, where events happened in the past, events "happen now" and events "happen in the future".

When I take an event that happened in the past, practically any kind of event, any such event has always an immediate and instant effect on the present and also on the future.

Simple, random example: Someone came to a lot of money (lottery) in the past, someone got a doctor's degree 20 years ago, someone lost a limb in an accident, whatever.

The "astonishing" thing is that the event which may have happened decades ago is (sort-of) "entangled" with the present. (I am rich today because I did win a million in the lottery 30 years ago. I am a doctor today because I got a degree 20 years ago. I don't have an arm because I lost it in an accident etc.). There is also no "delay", regardless of how far the event is back "in the past", or in other words: The present instantly "knows" about the event which happened. (The event as such, even if it happened a long time ago is never "concluded", it is actively influencing the present..if you understand what I am saying).

While those things sound very obvious at first (causality etc.) I have a "gut feeling" that it's in a way related to quantum entanglement. Maybe we're thinking about it the wrong way in the same way as we (mistakenly!) think events "in the past" are concluded and "hidden in the past forever" simply because of our wrong assumption of a linear time where events are "lined up". Obviously the idea of a linear time is false (as physics hopefully has shown over and over again)...because how can events (in the past) be lined up eg. "before the present" if they're still very real and actively influence the present. (Aka: Proof that the naive idea of time doesn't exist, all DOES in fact happen at the same time, linear time is an illusion)

Food for thought