Which is preferable: Secular Education or Theocracy?

reply to post by wildtimes

are you really not getting my point?

No, I fully understand your point. We both agree that the education system in the United States is broken. You think that the way to fix it is to implement yet another "new education method", despite the failure of previous such efforts, and little indication that this will be any different. I think that the way to fix it is to open up the market and allow competition to result in better education.

But the upshot is that people can reject "progressive education" for non-religious reasons, because they are two completely unrelated things -- there are likely liberal Christians who are 100% behind Common Core, and conservative atheists who are 100% against it.

reply to post by wildtimes

You authored a thread that boldly states this...

" Education toward adult achievement and life skills does NOT need to include "God."

You also asked this...

"So, my question is to you "God-fearing believers" -what is it you think the "Progressives" are trying to do??"

In which I responded with a short, sweet, and to the point description of what it is I think progressives are trying to do...

"Progressives won't stop until uttering the word "God", painting a picture of Jesus, or wearing a cross around your neck in school will get you suspended or sent to a counselor for a healthy dose of atheist brainwashing and some pills."

So to summarize, you're a self proclaimed, lifelong progressive who just authored a thread advocating the removal of religion in schools who is asking me....

1. Where did I get the idea that progressives want to remove religion from schools, and...

2. Where did I get the idea that progressives want to replace religion with psychiatry?

Well the first answer is obvious... YOU.

And the second answer came from the king of the progressives... Obama.
(unfortunately Google moved the link I found to an Obama speech using the search term "Obama care calls for psychiatrists in every school", so I'll find it when I get off of work today. Or you can simply deny that Obama is a progressive.)

reply to post by wildtimes

What are "qualified" students?

I struggled with that word, because I knew someone would jump on it, but I meant it to indicate that the person was actually a student -- not fictitious or dead or 35 years old or something.

It sounds to me like you're saying that everyone in the whole country gets the same "allowance" and then chooses the school. Is that correct?

Correct.

How are you going to follow up on people who don't use those vouchers, and instead neglect their kids' schooling altogether?

How do we do that today? If you opt not to send your kid to school or homeschool them, I presume that Child Services or someone finds out about it and you get in trouble, and that would be the same under a voucher system. As for parents who don't care where their kid goes to school, I assume that they'll just send them to the most convenient location, but that's their decision, isn't it?

With a voucher system, will every school have equally competent, trained teachers? Or is it more like a crapshoot?

Of course they would have licensed teachers, or else, just like today, the school would lose its accreditation.

If we switched to a voucher system tomorrow, pretty much nothing would change, apart from some percentage of the population taking their kids out of public schools and putting them in private schools, because they decided that was best for their child. And if enough people in a "bad" school district did that, then the "bad" school would either improve or close.

My problem with the word Progress is that it means something completely different to me than it does to you. What it really means is Imperialism and Ethnocide

The white man came here and proceeded to push their ideas of "progress" on the Native American, what that meant by "progress" is that they wanted to annihilate the Natives way of life, every single aspect of it.

When you Liberals/Democrats/Atheists say progress what you mean is that you want to rid the US of Christians, their views, their beliefs in marriage, you want to completely change the way half (give or take) of the population feels, thinks etc... You want to Annihilate (progress) our Constitution and anything else you do not agree with.

Want it or not, progress means out with the old in with the new even when it is unwanted, and people, traditions, religions get left in the dust.

I say this in all honesty, I know several Atheists and not one of them is worth a damn to me. Not one of them has any decency or morals, cheaters, selfish, hateful, if you do not agree with them than you are an idiot. They laugh at views of the religious, when science has been proven wrong so many times it is also laughable.

No one knows, no one, period.


As far as schools go, I think that unless it is a private school than the teachers should not be teaching religion of ANY kind, i'm tired of the Christians being singled out. Students though, should never be singled out though for professing a paticular religion and their views just because someone's mother has a stick up her but. Who cares, don't believe in Christ, I don't but I'd still rather spend the day with a Christian who will debate me but not tell me what I HAVE to believe like a damn thought police Liberal would. The thing about Christians is they believe in someting called free will, the freedom to make our own choices without being put down because of them.

You can keep your progress.

reply to post by adjensen

How do we do that today? If you opt not to send your kid to school or homeschool them, I presume that Child Services or someone finds out about it and you get in trouble, and that would be the same under a voucher system. As for parents who don't care where their kid goes to school, I assume that they'll just send them to the most convenient location, but that's their decision, isn't it?

Well actually that is a problem already with the homeschool community.

This is the most recent article on the matter that I am aware of.

Why Are Christian Fundamentalist Parents Allowed to Deny Their Kids Basic Literacy?

The article is 3 pages with several links. You should read some of the info from Homeschoolers Anonymous as they were the ones who endured it.

reply to post by Grimpachi


That is completely absurd...... A religious exemption for educational standard for home schooled kids? I am shocked that exists. I am even more shocked another state is trying to follow suit..... Well, no I can't say I am really shocked, more like saddened. Great way of setting your kid up for failure is not making sure your kid is educated. Even worse that a parent would actively oppose education.

ketsuko
If my day was the way I wanted it?

I would wake up and take my child to the school of my choice, not the one determined for me by my zip code, paid for by my tax dollars, teaching whatever curriculum so-called appointed experts I have no say in and not held accountable to me deem to be the best.

You would do likewise.

This would be paid for by restructuring the concept of "public" education so that everyone receives an equal grant of money to follow their child. It's called a voucher. I call it my tax dollars following my child, and your tax dollars following your child.

And if the school I chose is radically different from yours and not what you would choose, then you would shut your cake hole and look after your own kids. I would do the same.

Isn't this essentially saying you want the school to teach your beliefs? What if your beliefs are wrong? Do you truly want the best education for your child, or do you want your child to hold beliefs that are agreeable to you?

reply to post by brandiwine14

What it really means is Imperialism and Ethnocide

No. That's not correct.

reply to post by adjensen

If you opt not to send your kid to school or homeschool them, I presume that Child Services or someone finds out about it and you get in trouble,

No, actually, it's really easy.

I set up a "registered home school" of my own when my kid was having trouble with school.
You fill out an application, and that's that.

As for truancy, it's simple to tell the administrative office, "I kept my child home today." Once they miss a certain number, yes, the school will get more 'in your face' about it....(I didn't go that far, but my years working in the public schools taught me how it works).....

but it takes quite a few 'excused absences' for that to happen.

reply to post by Grimpachi


THANK YOU for linking that article.
I see I'm not the only one using that source

Why DO they get away with it??? Off to read the article, Grim.

reply to post by Bone75

So to summarize, you're a self proclaimed, lifelong progressive who just authored a thread advocating the removal of religion in schools who is asking me....

1. Where did I get the idea that progressives want to remove religion from schools, and...

2. Where did I get the idea that progressives want to replace religion with psychiatry?

Well the first answer is obvious... YOU.

Oh, bull#.

It's not like you've never run into 'progressive' threads and posts and people before. Gimme a break.

When did I EVER say that kids should be dosed rather than 'churched'???

Dude, seriously. Get a grip.
You have a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the word progressive! (No worries, I do when I see Jamie Dimon - at the least, I always throw up in my mouth a little)....

You did NOT get your narrow-minded, hateful, spiteful attitude from anything I've done;
you got it from Fox News, or some crap like that....

and it's WRONG. It's propaganda. You are way off.

I challenge you to look at the website that Grim just posted (alternet.org) for ONE WEEK and avoid Fox News, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, et al.

And then come back and tell me about how we're all commie Marxist demons.

reply to post by adjensen

You think that the way to fix it is to implement yet another "new education method", despite the failure of previous such efforts, and little indication that this will be any different. I think that the way to fix it is to open up the market and allow competition to result in better education.

Dale! YOU were the one who presented a vid about a 'new education method' and then implied/said it was a "Progressive, Common-Core Based" thing!!!

I never brought up 'new methods' at all (although they are constantly working on teaching methods and trying out different ways to engage kids - and have been since women first worked at it)....!!!

CC is a set of 'achievement standards' to aim for. It is NOT a 'curriculum', and it is a voluntary choice for each state whether or not to decide to implement those 'standards':

In English, and Maths.
That's it. That's all.

This is why I home-school.

Public schools are a mess!

reply to post by beezzer


Yeah, beez. They are.

I had to visit my kid's school many, many times to try to keep them (the teachers/admins) on track with his particular 'style'....LOL

Good on you for home-schooling. Although we frequently disagree, I think you'll give them a fair shot at seeing both sides.

reply to post by logical7

Tell me don't you see that progressive schooling seems like an attack on the identity of religious people wanting to pass it down to to their kids?

Sorry for late response; just saw this one.

No - I don't see it as an attack, because people can teach their kids about religion/religious ideologies AT HOME, outside of school hours.

"Progressive schooling" is about all kids, regardless of their families' 'wealth', get an equal experience; they are taught the same lessons, and held to the same standards, as kids in any other public school in the country.

No one is stopping religious parents from 'passing their faith down to their kids'.

But it should NOT be happening in a secular, multi-ethnic country - if a Hindu kid goes to a PUBLIC SCHOOL and is told they are 'stupid' and they flunk the course because the teacher is a Muslim (and has an agenda), how is that equitable?

It isn't.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dale! YOU were the one who presented a vid about a 'new education method' and then implied/said it was a "Progressive, Common-Core Based" thing!!!

I believe that I presented the video as being an emerging teaching method that I have issues with and would put my kid/grandkid in a private school, rather that subject them to that.

You may be confusing what I said with Ex_CT2's thread that I linked to later, which did make a line between Common Core and Whole Brain Teaching.

reply to post by wildtimes

Was it not enough that I broke it down into 2 questions and only attributed the first one to you? I don't see how I could have made myself any more clear. I never said YOU want to replace religion with psychiatry. I said YOU gave me the idea that progressives want to remove religion from schools.

Am I wrong on THAT account, because if not you're response was way out of line.

reply to post by Bone75


Bone, please understand that I reviewed our posts, and I see now what you were saying.
I'm not going to delete my misinterpretation, because I think it's important that people see how easily things can be misconstrued, misunderstood ---
and this one was entirely on me.

Anyway: here's what I originally responded with:

I never said YOU want to replace religion with psychiatry. I said YOU gave me the idea that progressives want to remove religion from schools.

Oh. I see. o_O You're basing this on what? When did I give you that idea? ***

Am I wrong on THAT account, because if not you're response was way out of line.

I gave you sources and references to what 'Progressivism' is about; what CC is about.

Yes, I want to remove religion from PUBLIC schools, because it excludes people (kids) who aren't of that 'religion.'
But that has nothing to do with anything you are now accusing me of 'saying'

(from your first post here):

Progressives won't stop until uttering the word "God", painting a picture of Jesus, or wearing a cross around your neck in school will get you suspended or sent to a counselor for a healthy dose of atheist brainwashing and some pills.

I never said anything like these things. ^^

*** EDIT: Just reread your response. I see where you said 'the answer to the first is 'you'.' I missed that you weren't talking about the second point.

I read it as "your first answer" was 'me.'
Okay, got it.

Still, I never said anything about the stuff you are quoted above as saying.


Thanks for explaining it better.

reply to post by wildtimes

Okay cool I'm glad we got at least that much straight. There still seems to be a little bit of confusion though...
In your Op you requested that a believer explain what it is they think progressives are trying to do. Since your topic is about education, I kept my answer confined to what I think progressives are trying to do with the educational system.

You seem to have taken that quite personally though. I'm not implying that you want to replace religion with psychiatry and medication,
but other folks who proudly tote the progressive banner most certainly do.

I actually read a thread here not too long ago where people were calling for theism to be classified as a mental illness. Coincidentally, Obama has made it clear that he wants a certified psychiatrist for every 500 students and he wants to grant them more authority.

reply to post by Bone75

You seem to have taken that quite personally though. I'm not implying that you want to replace religion with psychiatry and medication,
but other folks who proudly tote the progressive banner most certainly do.

And that's what I'm asking - what sources have you used to decide what "Progressives" are trying to do?

If you feel it is tyrannical, I'd like to know where you got that.

Thanks for your civility.