Debunking Sitchin Debunkers

reply to post by drivers1492


okay so who is the prophet talking to when he addresses the king of tyre?

was the king of tyre in eden?

biblehub.com...

what about the rest of our geological history? the ice age, the age of the reptiles? do you think dinosaur bones are fake?

reply to post by drivers1492


so the verse could read

And the earth became tohu and bohu. (a chaotic wasteland, in other words)

afterall, became is the proper tense for become. not was.

do you see the word "was" in there anywhere? yet, the translators put "was" instead of became.

www.blueletterbible.org...


to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

undo
reply to post by drivers1492

 

okay so who is the prophet talking to when he addresses the king of tyre?

was the king of tyre in eden?

biblehub.com...

what about the rest of our geological history? the ice age, the age of the reptiles? do you think dinosaur bones are fake?

This is a interesting set of scripture that I honestly cannot say I know the answer. It would appear that when speaking to the "king of tyre" that it is talking to or about satan/devil whichever you prefer to use. If it's actually referring to the current king then was that king in eden? No clue, there is no reference of it. Could it be the current king is actually satan? Don't know that either because the section in question seems out of sorts. There are multiple ideas who Tyrus is but I have no supported opinion on who it may be or if the section is to be taken literally.

I'm not sure why you would ask the second statement but to clarify for you. Yes dino bones are real. I have seen nothing conclusive to make me believe that the current scientific notion of the age of the earth, reptiles or whatever is not reasonably accurate.

reply to post by drivers1492


the reason i asked about that verse is that the reference says he, that is, the covering cherub, was cast out from among the stones of fire.
what's that mean to you? what is a covering cherub? and where's he cast out from and cast to where? if you dissect the verses there and answer those questions, then we might be closer to figuring out what the sam hill was going on on this planet before we homo sapiens came along.

there are many such head scratching and obscure verses in the old testament. things you rarely hear about or read for that matter. there's alot more going on than they teach in sunday school or bible study.

and again i ask, what's a "serpent" doing in the garden of eden, and how does a serpent lose legs he doesn't have in the first place?

reply to post by undo


One can find many odd verses old and new testament. The ot is a mess to read. Covering cherub seems to me to mean more in the way of guardian or protector. The whole idea of cast out.....well since we see him strolling around and in the council of god in other places chatting (job) I find it hard to consider him cast out at all. Unless of course your ok with everything not being in a straight course and jumping around.

So why was the serpent in the garden. Then only answer I have been able to accept is that he/it was allowed to be there. For whatever reason god decided that it be best that our future would be better outside of eden experiencing pain and tilling the ground.

I suppose one can make insinuations of any type to try and figure out if there was something odd before we came on the scene. In order to make solid observations it would seem you want solid evidence that something had actually happened out of the ordinary. I don't find that within our history. While there are many unanswered questions left on the table nothing I have come across personally seems to invoke the ideas put forth in the ot outside of myth.

reply to post by drivers1492


well we have hints of a pre-adamic world.
references to serpents, walking on 2 legs and talking.
references to serpents being a type of angel, called seraphim, seraph for singular.

now think, what type of person is covered in precious gems? what? was he a gollem? a serpent gollem? i find that even odder than the idea that there were sentient reptilians on the planet, following the ice age cataclysm. what's a gollem anyway? is that like an animated clone or something? there's something there.

have you seen my collection of bizarre artworks from abydos egypt and sumerian eridu?

have you read the verses regarding the creation of the adam? the one that says adam was created male and female, in the image of elohim? either god is a hermaphrodite or elohim was more than one, as in plural gods, and some of the adam were created as females in the image of elohim, that is, in the image of adam (if you've read my earlier posts in this thread, then you know what i'm saying). the verse is very insistent on this point and even goes so far as to call the adam THEY, not him, it or he. but they. so either it's a bunch of hermaphrodites or it's male and female elohim.

what do you make of that?

undo
reply to post by Harte

 

As that is the chief claim in his writings, it sort of takes the wind out of the Anunnaki sails, wouldn't you say?

no because the anunnnaki predate sitchin's nibiru theory by about 6000 years.

No, the Anunna do.

Not to quibble though.
Your statement quoted above in no way supports Sitchin's claim, I hope you see.

That is, the fact that a portion of the Babylonian pantheon was referred to as the Anunnaki (which portion, BTW, remained utterly nameless as individuals) says nothing at all about anything Sitchin wrote in his books.

Additionally, Sitchin tells us that the Anunna gods rebelled, and human slaves were created, after working as gold miners for a couple of thousand years. Given that his source for this story is the myth of Atrahasis, read that myth - any translation - and find where the mining of gold was ever even mentioned.

Here's one translation to start you off: Atrahasis myth

Harte

undo
no he's not a prophet, and yes, there are parts that appear to be too loosely translated to fit the texts themselves, but you see that with all manner of translations such as heiser's insistence that the anunna were just earthly royals even though the text says they were conceived in the sky. not on the earth.

I've not seen where Heiser states this. Can you quote (and link) him?

Are you referring to the translation of the word "Anunnaki" as "of princely blood" or "of princely seed"?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


i would think that much is obvious. humans are constantly referred to as servants thru out the bible. how do you get enough gold to cover every item in solomon's temple with gold? have you ever read the description of it? how about the description on how to build it? everything is covered in gold. the ark of the covenant is covered in gold. what about the high priests breast plates? gold encrusted with gems. gold gold more gold. gold everywhere. in fact, there was so much gold in solomon's temple, the levite priests had to wear special non-static linen cloth to keep from being electrocuted.

notice how even in the second chapter of genesis, gold is mentioned



Gen 2:11

The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

Gen 2:12

And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

--------
good gold? say what?

see my post above

all you have to do is consider your audience. why would a man and a woman, who are about to be ejected from the garden of eden,
and who have been informed that they are servants of god, who is about to demand of them that they till the land by the sweat of their brows, and give birth in pain and suffering and die in agony as their flesh aged and rotted, be even remotely interested in some shiny yellow metal in the ground or even know what it is? do you see any mention of it in the text before that, so we at least have a cookie crumb trail to follow, some inkling of a reason for why they should be informed that there's good gold and gems in the land encompassed by pison and havilah?

and if it's not a message to the adam and eve, who is it a message to? was moses just letting the israelites know where there was gold? and if so, does that mean they knew where eden was (cause pison and havilah are 2 of four rivers surrounding eden)?

in other words, something very strange going on there.

3d view inside solomon's temple.

undo
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

I will no longer study their material.

it isn't sitchin's material! it's not written by sitchin. it came thousands of years before sitchin's mommy gave birth to him.

it's not a forgery or a fake, it's real texts from the real people who lived back then.
for example, have you read the namshub of enki?

Once upon a time, there was no snake, there was no scorpion,

There was no hyena, there was no lion,

There was no wild dog, no wolf,

There was no fear, no terror,

Man had no rival.


In those days, the land Shubur-Hamazi,

Harmony-tongued Sumer, the great land of the me of princeship,

Uri, the land having all that is appropriate,

The land Martu, resting in security,

The whole universe, the people well cared for,

To Enlil in one tongue gave speech.


Then the lord defiant, the prince defiant, the king defiant,

Enki, the lord of abundance, whose commands are trustworthy,

The lord of wisdom, who scans the land,

The leader of the gods,

The lord of Eridu, endowed with wisdom,

Changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it,

Into the speech of man that had been one.
-------------

that's not written by anybody alive today. that was written by the late akkadians. it's the story about the tower of babel event.

Sitchin only made an interpretations of the Sumerian cuniform tablets...
my idea is that His translations of the ancient writings were based on his own schizophrenic reality of what he imagined the Sumerian clay symbols meant


He got completely caught-up in his fantasy that he constantly reinforced as being factual by mire books, lectures, tours, interviews.----Oh what a horrible life of luxury / or life of ease which developed into a cottage industry for him


i may be wayyyy off base --- but i also called the mess with Øbama before the crowd eventually caught on about him



remember that Adamski, in his 'contacts' also made audacious calims of the course of events and culture... those forecasts are also thought to be significantly true but not totally manifested--- which leaves us where?
accept these peoples claims as valid & from outside sources or talke their thought-lines as being plausable deviations of reality/factual truth

Sitchin was a scam artist, fraud and knowingly dishonest in all material he "authored". There is zero he has added to knowledge that is factual. correct or honest. He was an enemy to the concept of intelligence and a criminal. End of story there.

Anyone assuming anything less is woefully confused and without proper research into his shenanigans.

MM

reply to post by undo

I see.

Then, according to you, the fact that people like gold leads directly and logically to aliens actually creating humans to dig for gold.

Even though no such story exists in any ancient writings.

You seem to have slipped a little over the years, Undo.

I note that you haven't quoted Heiser saying what you claimed.

Will you? Or, should I say can you?

Harte

reply to post by undo


No, I'M the real FlyInTheOintment.

Had to, sorry.

But yeah, I feel that there is some deep truth hiding in the mists of time, which certain pseudoskeptics will always try to deflect your attention from. Big flying disc and all that jazz.

FITO.

ETA - Sitchin got me asking questions, and in that regard I thank him, regardless of the ill-veracity of many of his claims. Sometimes, the evidence before your eyes, mixed up with some historical context, and other bits n' bobs, leads to a greater understanding of reality. He got me asking the questions, like I say.

Harte
reply to post by undo

 

I see.

Then, according to you, the fact that people like gold leads directly and logically to aliens actually creating humans to dig for gold.

Even though no such story exists in any ancient writings.

You seem to have slipped a little over the years, Undo.

I note that you haven't quoted Heiser saying what you claimed.

Will you? Or, should I say can you?

Harte

edit on 1/18/2014 by Harte because: (no reason given)

Did I say aliens explain the fact a good place to find gold is mentioned in the second chapter of genesis? you added that to misdirect the evidence that it does indeed say that in the text. now why would god or moses, find the location of gold in eden, something so noteworthy it was added to the sacred text, a mere 2 chapters into it? you must be asking yourself these questions by now. if not, maybe you should take a step back and rethink it.

what i said was there's evidence of angelic beings coming down to the earth at a mount, mount hermon to be exact. why not just snap their angelic fingers and materialize in the middle of town? why do they descend to mount hermon? descend. from the sky. where does the text say they came from (this is in the book of enoch)? from the sky. where do the anunna come from? from the sky. where did jesus go to when he left? into the sky. where's he going to come back from? from the sky. how does new city jerusalem get to the earth? from the sky.

heiser, as far as i can tell, didn't directly make that statement in the ancient aliens debunked video, but he did say that sitchin's views on the anunna or anunnaki, are wrong. so it comes out to be just about the same thing anyway, and he's shown making these statements right after chris white claims that the Anunna being conceived in the sky, means princely blood.

reply to post by undo

What kind of hints are you referring to? From religious scriptures and myth or what?
Golem was something without a soul made from clay or something I forget exactly, comes from jewish mysticism. I have never really considered the biblical reference to serpent to actually mean snake even though it seems to imply it. When reading about satan covered in gems I guess you can take it to mean whatever works for you. I would make the assumption in mean adornment or more likely a covering much like excessive jewelry not necessarily set into the body of the being.
The plural references of the creation story I have always found interesting. I can conclude that when referring to adam/eve a plural use could be used to imply creation from the standpoint of all of us when the story is being told. The plural god used I have no clue. It could be a reference to him speaking with his female counterpart ashara (sp?) before her worship was considered blasphemy.

have you seen my collection of bizarre artworks from abydos egypt and sumerian eridu?

nope but if you have a link to it I would love to see it. Sorry for the late reply I lost one of my calves to coyotes yesterday, I was sitting up in the cedars with my rifle till late.

I look forward each day to reading the new posts on this thread. "Undo" and "harte" have the most informative and interesting information on this subject that I have ever had the pleasure of reading - two, very experienced swordsmen doing battle with 'touche' after 'touche'. I admire you both and thank you both profusely - not forgetting the many who have also contributed. Please continue.

reply to post by undo


It's a creation myth. A 'just so' story. Every culture has/had them. An attempt by primitive peoples to explain the world they saw in terms they could understand.

It doesn't mean it was true. Any more than Rudyard Kipling's famous tales for children were true.

undo

Harte
reply to post by undo

 

I see.

Then, according to you, the fact that people like gold leads directly and logically to aliens actually creating humans to dig for gold.

Even though no such story exists in any ancient writings.

You seem to have slipped a little over the years, Undo.

I note that you haven't quoted Heiser saying what you claimed.

Will you? Or, should I say can you?

Harte

Did I say aliens explain the fact a good place to find gold is mentioned in the second chapter of genesis?

Did I say you said this? No.

But if you would "debunk the Sitchin debunkers," and I'm one of them, then you must be able to provide some reason for Sitchin's claim that humans were created to mine gold for aliens, right?

Both quotes from Genesis mention there is gold in Havilah. There is also gold in California, as well as a California town by the name of Havilah. While California itself is not mentioned in the Bible, should we still assume that newly created humans were sent there to dig as well?

undoyou added that to misdirect the evidence that it does indeed say that in the text. now why would god or moses, find the location of gold in eden, something so noteworthy it was added to the sacred text, a mere 2 chapters into it? you must be asking yourself these questions by now. if not, maybe you should take a step back and rethink it.

The gold in your quotes is in Havilah, not Eden though, given the value placed on gold at the time Genesis was written (and today as well,) why should anyone be surprised that any Earthly paradise would be claimed to have contained gold (along with all the other bounty attributed to Eden)?
The writers of the Old Testament didn't find gold "noteworthy?"

There is nothing there to rethink, given the utter absence of any myth - the Bible included - that even mentions anything the least bit like humans being created to mine gold for aliens, angels, gods or anyone else.

undowhat i said was there's evidence of angelic beings coming down to the earth at a mount, mount hermon to be exact. why not just snap their angelic fingers and materialize in the middle of town? why do they descend to mount hermon? descend. from the sky. where does the text say they came from (this is in the book of enoch)? from the sky. where do the anunna come from? from the sky. where did jesus go to when he left? into the sky. where's he going to come back from? from the sky. how does new city jerusalem get to the earth? from the sky.

Please provide your evidence that Angels descended upon Mount Hermon. And by evidence, I mean actual evidence, not words in a mythology.
Otherwise, i can easily provide you with "evidence" that Paul Bunyan created the Grand Canyon.

Also, quote and link to the ancient texts describing the Anunna descending from the sky.

undoheiser, as far as i can tell, didn't directly make that statement in the ancient aliens debunked video, but he did say that sitchin's views on the anunna or anunnaki, are wrong. so it comes out to be just about the same thing anyway, and he's shown making these statements right after chris white claims that the Anunna being conceived in the sky, means princely blood.

Uh huh. That's what I thought.
This is what I meant by "slipping."

There was a time, Undo, when I thought I could at the least rely on you to not fabricate an untruth merely to support your idea of the past.
Apparently, that time is also in the past.

Now, what other lies will you tell in order to "debunk the Sitchin debunkers" who, after all, are only pointing out the truth, and not fabricating untruths to discredit Sitchin?

Lastly, the "princely blood" translation, in context, refers to the Anunna as the offspring of Anu, the king of the Sumerian pantheon. In that sense, they are "god-princes," as the offspring of a king is called a prince (or princess.) White (and the translation) does not imply that the Anunna were not gods.

This, I can admit, is likely just a misreading of the meaning on your part, and perhaps you do not mischarachterize it purposefully.

Harte