Does life after death necessarily involve a creator?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


That last quotation was not my statement.

I didnt say I dont appreciate science and technology, I just said that our understanding is limited and progressive. If we had a complete understanding, then there would be no room for new invention/innovation.

Good luck trying to convince the world that we dont exist. Its plausible, but not likely, not if you acknowledge yourself as an individual entity, that is.

Once you come to the conclusion that God's existance is scientifically possible, then you also might consider that God has already identified Himself to man to eliminate the guess work. Perhaps it is man that has distorted this self introduction.

After all, mythology and history is part of our environment. It shouldnt be taken for granted.

How do you define science? This seems to be where we part ways.

I had been meaning to start a thread similar to this. In no way is there a prerequisite there needs to be "god" per say but I would have to think even if we are sitting on a computer in a extra-dimensional beings desk then wouldn't that qualify them as being a creator?

Now if this is some sort of weird futuristic simulation in order to get us to learn in some way something then maybe that would not apply.

reply to post by droid56

Does life after death necessarily involve a creator god?

Good thread!!! S/F

Sorry I'm a bit late to the meeting....

I think, no, life after death does NOT necessarily involve a 'creator god'.

We simply ARE. Lately I've been thinking about how 'different' we are from the rest of the creatures on this planet.....
apes have hair all over....and live in the natural environment. Birds build "nests", just like pregnant women (and women in general) are "nesters"......
We have supposedly 'sophisticated' language and writing.....but how much do we know about how whales, dolphins, seals, and other sea mammals rise above this, and communicate over jillions of miles of sea???????

Why do we only have hair mostly on our heads? What is up with that?????

Why do we need shelter and clothing, when all other mammals don't?

It's all quite bizarre. The more I learn/study, the more confused I get....

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

That last quotation was not my statement.

Ah. You are correct. My apologies.

Once you come to the conclusion that God's existance is scientifically possible, then you also might consider that God has already identified Himself to man to eliminate the guess work. Perhaps it is man that has distorted this self introduction.

Scientifically possible, eh? Then where did God come from? What created him?

reply to post by abeverage


But first you have to define the word "God". What qualifies a being as a god? What are the characteristics? How does a god come into being? We don't have answers to any of those questions. I would suggest starting there if we're to give the idea of a "god" any scientific basis at all.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by abeverage

 

But first you have to define the word "God". What qualifies a being as a god? What are the characteristics? How does a god come into being? We don't have answers to any of those questions. I would suggest starting there if we're to give the idea of a "god" any scientific basis at all.

The topic is not about god so much as can there be an afterlife without a creator or a god and I believe that is very possible.

reply to post by droid56


I believe in the His word so yes. Ye will be judged when the apocalypse is shown to all.

reply to post by droid56



Absolutely it does.
But not in the way you are thinking. If you are eternal, you are the creator.

reply to post by abeverage


If you check out the post above mine, you'll see how I keep coming back to a god. You can't expect us to avoid it.

zachpadilla73
All I know, is that most people mistake their brain getting flushed with '___', as "seeing the light"

Because you've died before? I wouldn't exactly say you know. Perhaps "speculate" might have been a better term...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Humans can only observe 4 dimension; point, length, depth (XYZ axis), and duration of time. Within the first 4 dimensions everything has a beginning and an end. This observation is qualified and quantified by time.

Therefore, it is a reasonable hypothesis that a being out side of the 4th dimension (5D+) can exist without being created.

A 3D object from a 2D perspective can only be viewed in slices or frame progressions (like an MRI scan).

However, a 2D object from a 3D perspective can be analyze as a whole.

The same principle can be applied with 4D to 5D transition.

We cant fully comprehend eternal existance (past, present, future), from our plane. However, from the eternal plane (5D), the 4th dimension would seem to be a primative state.

So, if God eternally exists in (5D) then there can only be one true God. In a dimension that has no beginning or end, any plurality of being would likely be consolidated into one collective consciousness.

This principle is expressed in the Christian Trinity:

Father-omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient

Son-omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient

Holy Spirit-omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient

One consciousness expressed in 3 personalities.

Why 3? I dont know? But, the 2nd dimension does teach us that equalateral triangle the simplist of the polygons.

Simplicity speaks of efficiency.

I have thought this many times before.
IMO
My soul, consciousness, spirit, being, psyche, ego, or whatever you would like to call it, has validated the existence of the so called afterlife for ME.
But all of those things I refer to involve ME.
If it was not for ME none of these things, none of this experience would exist.
This includes God (yes a capital G- lucky for me I was raised catholic.)
If I was never introduced to God, he would not exist.
I create what "he" is and what he is not.

Because I am MY creator.

So assuming my whatever you would like to call it goes to the "afterlife" I do not think I will meet the creator of it all but I do think the afterlife needs one to exist.


Sometimes I am afraid of the way other people will perceive my outlook on it because it sounds like I am saying I am God.
But honestly, that is exactly what I am saying.

I am MY God. I am MY creator.
I refuse to give my power to this "God".
I refuse to live my life for this all mighty man in the sky.
I do it for myself.
I feel like some others could really benefit from believing in themselves instead.
Sorry to rant but it is frustrating to see how "God" controls so many lives and how many people are out there selling themselves short.

In short the answer to your question.
Yes

It's all quite bizarre. The more I learn/study, the more confused I get....

Its a never ending puzzle. Incredible isn't it?

By all means there is a Creator.

For whatever reason, religion has defined eternal in a finite manner. I am certain that there are those that are most certainly in the know as to what this is all about and this is suppressed, repressed, and generally kept from the light of day. It is the same process as keeping little kids in the dark about sex.

You can't handle the truth.

With religion it is a control issue. Let's face it. The majority of the people in this world are not capable of prudent, altruistic, empathetic or sympathetic interactions. Most people function at animalistic levels, putting emotional reactions and gratification above everything. We are all part of a dysfunctional paradigm that cannot be overcome. Our very nature is parasitic.

Defining your relationship, seeking your relationship, with the Creator is the single most essential objective of the soul. Whether you be dead or alive, it is your spiritually responsibility to hear and seek the guidance of the Creator. You are to grow spiritually. It's your duty.

But, in this realm, the energy required to do so is constantly dis-empowered, distracted and never allowed to focus.

I'm just banging a pan now. I'll go away.

It's simply complicated.

Chicken and eggy.

I don't know why I throw in on this _____, nobody cares.

NthOther

winofiend

Someone told you about thie creator, you didn't wake up with him in your mind. You're falling for someones lies... nothing more.

Some of us (a lot of us, actually) have experienced this "phenomenon" directly. We're not "falling for" anything, haven't been "convinced by" anyone, and aren't basing our knowledge of the eternal on anything other than our own personal experiences.

That's where the whole "if you have to ask, you'll never know" cliche comes from. It's a cliche because it's true, and I think that pisses a lot of atheists off. They're angry because they don't have, and never have had, experiences which inform them of a transcendent reality that science is fundamentally incapable of explaining (or even describing).

And they'll never have such experiences if they can't open themselves up to them. They can call us all crazy, if it makes them feel better, but I think most atheists know that's not the case. And that really pisses them off.

edit on 10/29/13 by NthOther because: (no reason given)

Although I was raised in a secular (not "atheist") environment, I have spent my life being open to the idea of experiencing something, anything, that would inform me of a "transcendent reality," of the existence of the paranormal, the supernatural, the spiritual, or what have you. I am constantly awestruck at the world around me and admit that the reality I inhabit is, in many ways, a remarkable "creation." I consider myself a fairly logical, analytical, scientifically-minded person, but I do my best to understand the thought processes that lead people to believe in these things I myself have not experienced. "Faith" is a hard concept for me to grasp, though. Maybe you have to either be raised with it or have some personal experience that leads you to it. Where does that leave me? I strive to be a good person, to be humble, to help others, and not to cause harm. Like I said, I am open to many different possibilities, even though I think some of them are less probable than others. When I was younger, I tried fairly hard for several years to will or provoke some sort of "transcendent" experience to happen, but to no avail. These days I just live my life and figure I'll revise my worldview if such an experience ever does come along. I can't help but wonder, though...why do so many others have these experiences, but yet I do not? What is it about me? If a higher power exists, why does it pay attention to some, but not others?

Edited to add the more on-topic remark that I sincerely wish I could convince myself to believe in life after death, with or without a creator - the idea is certainly appealing and comforting. I don't understand how people can say that they "know" X or Y or Z will happen, though. Even if you've been clinically dead and returned to life, how do you "know" your experience, or lack thereof, is the same as what occurs during permanent death?

I believe our "purpose" here on Earth doesn't exactly stop once we die. If you look at it logically, the atoms, elements, etc. that make up our bodies stays on this planet physically. So the things that once made us up, might boost the life of other things to come in the future. What I mean by this is, the left over parts of your body may serve as nutrients for plants. And maybe animals will feed upon the plants, and the process goes on and on. At least until our planet will be destroyed. Most likely because of our sun going super nova. Or maybe some other celestial inference similar. But even then, the things that made up our planet will still be around for seemingly forever. Just because our planet may be destroyed, doesn't mean that everything that was once on Earth will disappear. Since science tells us that matter cannot by created or destroyed. Matter simply takes a different form. (Gas, solid, liquid, plasma.)

Probably one of the most ridiculous ideas about religion if you ask me, if the idea of heaven and hell. I have a very hard time believing that a god who loves you, and cares for you will force you to suffer for eternity all because you didn't follow the right theology on your short time on Earth. If god were so concerned about sinners, and the wicked, why not let it be known that he exists, and actually provide guidance for people? Why would you want your life's work just to crash and burn like that?

There are many flaws to the heaven and hell idea. And I suppose I will list a few to have you understand why I think it is very sloppy and flawed.

The first thing I'll bring up is the battle between god and satan. First of all, why are people so sure that god would win? And if god indeed does lose eventually, it looks like you are going to be big time screwed when the time comes.I'm sure the "good" people will be hated quite highly by satan. And maybe they would even regret their decisions on Earth.

Secondly, if people on both sides (good and evil) go to war, how exactly would these people die? The whole point of combat is to kill the opposing side, but these people are already living a life of eternity. If a wicked person was in hell, then die, where do they go from there? Would there be some sort of third party realm that they'll go to? basically just a eternal limbo type situation?

On to number three, why exactly would satan want to act like god's prison master? Why would satan want to take all of the "bad" people and have to deal with them forever? Wouldn't it be more logical that satan would rather get a hold of the people who actually believed in god and make them suffer? And wouldn't god would try to take the non-believers and tell them that he does exist and forgive them, taking away an extra solider that satan would have? Because there are far more nonbelievers than their are believers. So god is going to be vastly outnumbered.

And when you think about it, when the "apocalypse" comes, and god and satan square off once again, wouldn't you bet that satan would win? I'm not saying that I would want an evil entity to win, but when you think about it, it would be logical to assume that he would indeed win. Think about it, the master of torture, suffering, and death, fighting against the master of love, peace, and caring.

I think a brutal person such as satan would have an edge, because he lives and breathes violence. Not to mention all of his human minions would be hardened by all of the suffering they have endured. There wouldn't be many things god could do to them that satan already hasn't done. They would grow immunity to pain after so long. You really think that a bunch of people in heaven drinking a margarita, and taking harp lessons on a cloud would really stand a chance against a vastly larger army of extremely violent, battle hardened people? It would make for a cute story line in a movie, but it's not realistic.

And after so long being in heaven or hell, you'd think that the thrill, and pain would wear off eventually. Or at least you will grow accustomed to it. Think about it, what exactly are you going to do for an eternity? I'm sure you'll end up running out of things to do eventually. And it would seem like living forever would be more of a curse than a blessing. There wouldn't be anything to do about it either. Your just going to be alive forever with no escape. Sure it may be great at first, but as I said earlier, the thrill will wear off eventually, and nothing will be new and exciting anymore. It's kind of like watching a great movie for the first time. Your amazed at first and love it, but if you sit there and watch over and over, you won't find it as good as the first time you saw it.

All heaven and hell is, is just a sense of hollow comfort. People want to assume that their good deeds won't go unnoticed, or that the "evil" people won't be able to escape punishment after death. And heaven and hell just scares people into submission. It just promotes violence and fear. I see Christians in particular babbling about the "end times" constantly. And all the Christian faith is oriented to is basically just that final show down between god and satan, or the "end times" if you will. Apparently every major current event is a part of a prophecy, and is evidence of the anti-christ is coming. Just fear, pilled on fear, pilled on fear. And these people just assume it's all out of their control. After all, it's apart of an age old prophecy right? It's a complete and total cop out. People want "Jesus" to come and save them, rather than take responsibility for themselves, just like how people turn to the government to fix everything when things fall apart.

Everything is energy and Energy is not created or destroyed, therefore, the logical conclusion is that there Is no creator, even if energy is spirit (implying an afterlife).

However, just like all the parts make up the computer, all the energy makes up the reality, and reality moves as one (growing and changing)

Trust that the reality knows what it is doing, and that you are being moved perfectly playing your part.

reply to post by arpgme


I agree that the closest thing to "god" that there is, is energy itself. Energy is the essence of everything. Energy powers everything that is "living" and nonliving alike. If you look at living things, such as us humans, or a plant, we need to feed off of energy to survive. And we achieve this by eating other living things for our energy.

Even things that aren't physically "alive" need energy to function properly. The car sitting out in your garage needs energy in order to work. the computer I am typing on at this moment needs energy in order to work. And even stars need energy in order to function. And if our star, the sun didn't exist, life on planet earth would cease to exist. Crops need sunlight in order to grow, which is another form of energy. And sunlight wouldn't provide us with warmth, so the planet will become far to cold to sustain it's life.

And it's funny to note that even things that aren't physically alive end up dying eventually. Stars do this all of the time. After it's process of fusion is overpowered by it's own gravity, it essentially "dies." And the death of a star can result in a few different thing, such as a white dwarf, or a super nova. And also, things such as cars eventually stop working. After so long it begins to malfunction, and needs to be restored. A good example would be the car battery going dead. And when that happens, the car will not start.

So it seems like energy is the master of our universe. It creates order and purpose. Without energy, there would be no "life" both literally and metaphorically.

reply to post by droid56


Yes a creator is needed. Because everything can not come from nothing. Everything is designed, that is evident in all things. Design is evidence of intelligence in ALL things, except biology so they can uphold their anti-God agenda.
We know mostly about the physical universe we live in, but barely touch upon the other dimensions, the spiritual dimension. The creator has to be eternal and outside this universe he created, but he can and did enter into it as a man/God Jesus the Christ. There is no way we can imagine a place without time outside this universe, it is very strange idea to us in a universe where all things have a beginning and an end.
You really have to stretch your mind to get past this physical matrix world we live in day to day. We are brainwashed by those in control into thinking all creation is all just a random accident, yet mathematical impossibilities and common sense tells you that is not true.

opopanax
When I was younger, I tried fairly hard for several years to will or provoke some sort of "transcendent" experience to happen, but to no avail. These days I just live my life and figure I'll revise my worldview if such an experience ever does come along. I can't help but wonder, though...why do so many others have these experiences, but yet I do not? What is it about me? If a higher power exists, why does it pay attention to some, but not others?

I suppose it really depends on your definition of "experience", which is why the whole thing is so difficult to describe in the first place. If you're expecting Jesus or Krishna or any number of a host of "avatars" to manifest before you and whisk you away on a visionary journey... that probably isn't going to happen (not right away, anyway). The experience is more of a process than a singular event--a process that is impeded by not trusting the process. Faith is trust, and it's more about you paying attention to it than it paying attention to you.

But it sounds like you're well on your own course.

reply to post by Kaboose

Yes a creator is needed. Because everything can not come from nothing.

Then where did the creator come from? And the creator's creator?