No, America is not a Christian nation

AfterInfinity
Actually, that's a Chinese philosophy. The theory goes that because of the yin and yang, if you are smacked on the cheek, you can turn the other cheek and they won't hit you again because they believe in balance.

Don't believe everything you hear, and do your bloody research, for crying out loud.

Wouldn't balance require another slap, on the opposite cheek this time (for symmetry)?

Or a slap from the slappee to the slapper, on the same cheek?

FreeMason
How can a state be restricted on what rights are socially acceptable unless those rights go beyond popularity and are given by God.

Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

Cant have it both ways.

Agreed?

I'm not the one trying to have it both ways.

How do you know God retracted/cancelled that man's (the one put to death for murdering others) right to life?

Did He confide in you?

Why did/does/would He allow murderers to have any right to life at all? Why aren't they all stillborn or fail to conceive?

And how would a godly retraction of the right to life express itself if not through the individual dropping dead on the spot?

But the people put to death by execution don't drop dead. They are killed.

And why does God allow people to be murdered (that is, for a mere human to cancel His divine right to life that he gave the murder victim).

Isn't that a human infringing on the God-given right to life of his victim?

How can that be?

Also, how does this interpretation of rights as being God-given and inalienable reconcile with war?

Are wars God's will?

Does God will every person's death at the hand of another human being?

Dondylion

AfterInfinity
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

It says "Creator", not "God". So for all we know, they were talking about a force completely distinct from your god.

Exactly. How can we know they weren't talking about our parents? Aren't they technically our "Creators" since they had to have sex in order to create us? Creator =/= God.

No they begat us which is wholly different from creation and since the signers were Christian their intentions are plain.

reply to post by Pejeu

So you're saying if you infringe on someone else's rights then you basically annul/forfeit your own rights?

Yes and no, to some degree but YOU do. Because YOU made the choice to do so.

Even though they may be natural/God given?

Yup and the rights are still there really, they still exist. They're yours.

How can you or other people take or give away / suspend / cancel your God given, inalienable rights?

Because they aren't really given or granted; nor are they really taken away exactly unless your dead. Then they just don't exist for YOU anymore. Otherwise you are simply removed from society so you cant do any more harm. Even when confined, you still have rights. Just don't expect to own any firearms or be able to walk around in cities or outside of prison walls. So this is more of a restriction of movement or possession, and a penalty against your life minutes.

What if you DON'T get caught or are indicted but found NOT guilty (despite being so)?

If you dont get caught you are walking around free. Likewise if you get caught but we don't have sufficient evidence that you committed the crime, you walk. Its not easy to fool everyone though.

Then you get to keep your rights even though you've infringed on someone else's?

Your rights are still there yes, but they haven't been penalized nor restricted because you were not caught.

So basically, if you're a skilled and/or lucky enough criminal... no consequences for you for your crime?

Yes, but what we know is that often, people who break the law once will normally do it again. Its not true for everyone but normally applies when it comes to murderers and a few others. You may get away with some mess, but you're going to get caught sooner or later. If you don't, you'll mess with someone who's not having your # and... welp. You still got what you had coming either way didn't you.

You get to keep your rights?

You never lost them really, what happens is they are restricted or penalized.

I'm not the one making you look like hypocrites.

Yea I guess some make us seem like we are but, they're there to maintain order, civility and stability. When someone is inprisoned some rights are restricted or penalized. You still walk, read, learn, associate, eat, pray, youre clothed, kept clean ect... just in a confined area away from society.

I'm merely exposing contradictions, flaws and inconsistencies in your reasoning and arguments.

You're free to do whatever you want to do. Self governance is real. Govern yourself in a way that is unacceptable to society and modern civility, then you have issues. Kill somebody in cold blood and we may not see you again.

Every person in the US has a set of what they consider civil rights. We all try to respect them and protect them but not everyone always participates. Some actively seek to get rid of them or go around them and some simply ignore them. Some folks don't know they have them. Others feel these rights cannot be taken away and some look to recognize and establish more. You get that in a diverse nation of people but we often find everyone claims them in defense of life and liberty and every court recognizes them. Over time though we try to keep the laws more to the needs and with the will of the people. When that's true, the laws change.That doesn't mean we look to restrict nor take away peoples rights. Its usually a unified effort to bring laws more in line with them.

Dondylion

AfterInfinity
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

It says "Creator", not "God". So for all we know, they were talking about a force completely distinct from your god.

Exactly. How can we know they weren't talking about our parents? Aren't they technically our "Creators" since they had to have sex in order to create us? Creator =/= God.

Even if you believe that, your parents are your creator, then you were born with rights that are yours, that which is yours is yours, and others are not to take away what they did not create.

I already outright disproved the absurdity that the Founders thought of our parents when thinking of our Creator.

The Bible has two words, Creator, and Begat. When talking about creating something from nothing, the Bible uses the word Creation in reference to the Creator, God.

When talking about giving birth it useses the word "begat". Or begotten.

To think the learned Founders would confuse the two terms is just stupid.

The OP's quotes are wrong.

Need to actually read "The Social Contact."
By Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

He clearly explains NATURAL Rights and the purpose of the Contract is to protect them.

The Government doesn't create Human Rights that's unbelievably incorrect.

How are there all the pages of debate?

The OP quotes are wrong by technicality.

Didn't actually read the books referenced, big mistake.

I actually read it for a report so I remember.
If even vaguely.

How this got religious oriented?
Because people have opinions....
But how many know the Facts???

reply to post by Grimpachi


Its a Mazzaroth country.


Look up

“Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains. Those who think themselves the masters of others are indeed greater slaves than they.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau

“Every man having been born free and master of himself, no one else may under any pretext whatever subject him without his consent. To assert that the son of a slave is born a slave is to assert that he is not born a man.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract

There are tons more relevant quotes.

The OP source needs to talk less, read more.

reply to post by FreeMason


Give it up, creator is a generic word. They didn't use god, jesus, allah, zeus, or any other diety. They used creator to apply to all the religions, even those without any religion. One of the biggest reasons the US even happened, was religious bigotry in europe. No way the founders would slant the US, toward any one religion. Learn history.

muzzleflash
How are there all the pages of debate?

The OP quotes are wrong by technicality.

Didn't actually read the books referenced, big mistake.

I actually read it for a report so I remember.
If even vaguely.

How this got religious oriented?
Because people have opinions....
But how many know the Facts???

Why don't you explain to them the concept of civil rights and how those came to be. Possibly the stamp act or issues with quartering, or more on slavery for example. Which I thought I made clear, history is the source. I simply tried to explain restrictions and penalties on life and liberty as it pertains to us and the law in the modern times with no sources. I thought I did it very loosely, feel free to tighten it up.

TKDRL
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Give it up, creator is a generic word. They didn't use god, jesus, allah, zeus, or any other diety. They used creator to apply to all the religions, even those without any religion. One of the biggest reasons the US even happened, was religious bigotry in europe. No way the founders would slant the US, toward any one religion. Learn history.

edit on Sun, 20 Oct 2013 00:54:58 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

I posted it before. (correction)
the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them

Not speaking at nor to anyone one in particular:
Let me just say this. The thought that a bunch of people came to the country and didn't believe that people not only believed in god but in their view could be a different god is silly. What people will not do here is dictate to the other which is god governs us all, let alone singularly dictate to everyone how to live.

reply to post by Nephalim


I have no idea what you are trying to say, unless you are trying to say the same thing I did....

TKDRL
reply to post by Nephalim

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say, unless you are trying to say the same thing I did....

Yes look again. Im never done with the first thing I type. Drives me bat# crazy.

FreeMason

Dondylion

AfterInfinity
reply to post by FreeMason

 

Either you accept the ability of government to restrict any right or some are inalienable by God.

It says "Creator", not "God". So for all we know, they were talking about a force completely distinct from your god.

Exactly. How can we know they weren't talking about our parents? Aren't they technically our "Creators" since they had to have sex in order to create us? Creator =/= God.

No they begat us which is wholly different from creation and since the signers were Christian their intentions are plain.

Can you please show me where the Founding Fathers included the word "God" in anything they did that pertained to founding our nation, then? If what you say is true, it shouldn't be too hard to prove.

reply to post by Dondylion


I just did. Here is another
Divine Providence
Supreme Judge of the world

lol

reply to post by Nephalim


Oh ok lol. Yeah, I have the same problem, premature posting all the time. Always gotta go back and edit something. It's like forum turrets or something

Nephalim
reply to post by Dondylion

 

I just did. Here is another
Divine Providence
Supreme Judge of the world

lol

edit on 20-10-2013 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

So words you say now = proof, then? Does that mean if I say I'm a flying purple hippo does that mean it's true?

I'm asking for actual proof: links to documents, historian accounts (more than one person's who agree with one another) where the Founding Fathers included the word "God" in anything that pertained to the founding of our nation. Like I said, if our Founding Fathers truly were all Christian and founded this nation on the Bible and God, those docs shouldn't be too hard to find, right?

I'll be waiting.

Nephalim
Even if you believe that, your parents are your creator, then you were born with rights that are yours, that which is yours is yours, and others are not to take away what they did not create.

The bible also states not to charge interest and to forgive all your debtors every 7 years. Something even the Lord's prayer hints at.

I'm not calling you hypocrites.

Just saying.