Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

reply to post by backcase

Jesus leads us to health and it can be dangerous if he is not our focal point. I understand what you mean, but I would rather not judge and eat the foods which my Teacher gives me to eat.

Buddha likewise led us to "health". So he, and all other sages (including Confucius, Krishna, etc.) had something to offer. To my thinking, backcase, the Golden Rule is the ONE UNIVERSAL FRUIT that all should heed. All the rest is 'frosting'. 'Gravy'. Better still, "ADDITIVES". LOL!!

I like talking like this lol

Me, too!!

LOTS MORE LINKS ... shows that the majority of Christians do NOT take the Old Testament literally and yet they are still Christians. (still waiting on acknowledgement by the OP on the previous information .... )

Only 30% of Americans Take the Bible Literally

Also of note may be the clear majority of Catholics (65 percent) who believe the Bible is the inspired word of God but should not be taken literally word for word,

Gallup Polls on Christians
41% of Protestant Americans believe the bible is to be taken literally.
Less than one third of Catholics believe the bible is to be taken literally.

The majority of protestants and Catholics do not take the Old Testament literally.
They understand that its' full of allegory and myth and folklore.
Good stories for learning from ... but not to be banked on as fact.
AND ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE CHRISTIANS.

reply to post by wildtimes


With Christianity we find Jesus to be that one fruit, that one water, that one Love.

All is found in Jesus and Jesus is found in all. I cannot say the same about anyone else though because when I say Jesus, I mean the True God.

Edit: I think many other prophets also knew Jesus, because he can be found in the self and in everyone.

He is the divine presence which is always with us.

Read my signature if it interests you.

How are You using Jesus? (pun intended) as the carpenter that has low bids ALL over J'Salem and B'Ham? or the One who became 'enlightened' by His recognition of the "Christ Consciousness"?

Siddhartha Gautama aka "The Great Buddha" reached enlightenment in the 6th century B.C. So,sew, what You're typing is that He had to take different bodies (incarnate) and had to wait until Jesus the Jewish carpenter became Jesus Christ? (Awakening the Christ Consciousness which is in everyBody?)

In that there "Rule Book" what does it read as in regard to "judging" ? AnyBody that types/says/utters "I don't judge"

sk0rpi0n
Christians, is such a thing even possible in your belief system? Can one really call himself a 'christian' if he/she dismisses key Biblical characters such as Adam, Melchizedek and Noah as myths...while speaking ill of the prophets Abraham and Moses? I know Jews and Muslims hold these OT characters in high regard.... But what about christians? Discuss.

edit on 9-10-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Yes..Christians can believe whatever they want and still be Christians.Being a Christian is just a matter of believing in "their" religion of Christianity.Which is based on...I believe therefore I Am.It "defines them.

FlyersFan

Oh geee ... what could have promoted this?
Nice to see that I'm living rent free in your head.

Christianity ... the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth

Following the teachings of CHRIST. Not a mythological Adam and Eve. Not a debunked Noah. Not Abraham who may or may not have existed. Not Moses who was a murdering war lord.

Following CHRISTs teachings ...

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength
and love your neighbor as yourself. There ya' go.

So yes .... to a person can be a Christian without believing all the Old Testament folklore and mythology.

You already know that ... it's just that you don't accept the truth of that statement. Your problem is that you think everyone has to fit into a box with a label on it ... and real life doesn't work that way.

edit on 10/9/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

If you believe that Jesus the son of God died on the cross for your sins as the Christ, then you are a Christian.

But, a Christian should by no means dismiss the OT or any other portion of the biblical scriptures as mere mythology. If the OT is mythology, and Abraham wasnt real, and Jesus didnt descent from the tribe of Judah to fulfill the very real OT Law, then there really is no foundation for any faith in Christ. All of the scriptures are God breathed. To question that veracity is to question His very word.

God created the universe and all that is resident in it. Science is simply man's attempt to observe, document and understand the method that God employs to sustain His creation. Just because our pre-concieved notions of what we call science do not line up with Bible doesnt make God a liar. It means that we are missing pieces of the puzzle.

A believer in Christ who dismisses any portion of the Bible as mythology is an arrogant man headed for self destruction.

The bible is our mirror. If you are unwilling to acknowledge its purety and truth, then you are unwilling to face your own flawed reflection.

BELIEVERpriest
If you believe that Jesus the son of God died on the cross for your sins as the Christ, then you are a Christian.

Exactly. That's it.

But, a Christian should by no means dismiss the OT or any other portion of the biblical scriptures as mere mythology..

NO 'BUT' about it. You are dead wrong.


If YOU wish think that myths and folklore and allegories are literally true, then thats your choice. But the simple fact is ... they are NOT literally true. There are good moral stories to learn from them ... like childhood bedtime stories are fake but have good moral stories ... but that's it. The vast majority of Christianity understands that there are myths, folklore, and allegories in the Old Testament and that understanding that FACT in no way takes away from their Christianity.

All of the scriptures are God breathed. To question that veracity is to question His very word.

Again, if you wish to believe that God wrote the whole bible, that's your choice. The FACTS say otherwise. Educate yourself and don't be afraid of the truth. You'll be a stronger person for it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . how can a ''christian'' reject belief in Abraham, Moses, Noah, Melchizedek.... Considering they were all referred to/associated with Jesus?

Christians who want to understand the New Testament should not reject being familiar with the O.T. characters because they do show up in N.T. rhetoric.

That was a language that was well known, with a standardized written account, that was useful for illustrating certain concepts.

As for "believing in" them, I think that was spoken against by Jesus.
Trying to emulate storybook characters does not lend to you any holiness, even if it is the fictional version of God Himself.
Jesus illustrated this in his confrontation with the scribes and Pharisees over the Sabbath, where they had the idea (even stated as such in the 10 commandments), thinking that following the fictional version of God in resting on the seventh day makes you holy.
This is just wrong and Jesus said so by breaking the delusion saying, "my father works continually and so do I".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The story in the Bible is unified for those who can see. Revelation refers to Genesis. Jesus fulfilled old testament prophesies.

reply to post by FlyersFan


What FACTS do you have to prove the OT is mythology? Geological evidence and mythology both indicate that a world wide flood and axial shift actually happened. The earth was not created in six days, but restored in six days, so the earth is quite old.

The attempt to "debunk" the OT by Christians reflects a lack of faith. Its a serious contidtion of the soul and spirit.

If you take the OT as myth, then you have to assume the events leading up to the the 2nd advent to be myth as well.

BELIEVERpriest
What FACTS do you have to prove the OT is mythology?

I feel bad for the Christians who take the Old Testament as literal history.
it just isn't so.

BELIEVERpriest
The attempt to "debunk" the OT by Christians reflects a lack of faith. Its a serious contidtion of the soul and spirit.

1 - There is no 'attempting to debunk' happening. IT HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. Not attempted. DONE!

2 - Failure for Christians to use their brains reflects a lack of intelligence. It's a serious condition of the mind. (to use your words back atchya)

3 - Using the 'lack of faith' excuse for not looking at things critically is insanity. If a religion can't hold up in the light of facts, then it is unworthy of consideration.

4 - Shake off the indoctrination. Look at the facts. The truth will set you free.


In the mean time ... this will educate you a bit ...

Adam and Eve are CREATION MYTHS. The Earth wasn't created in 6 days. The Earth isn't 6,000 years old. Snakes don't talk. And when Cain supposedly killed Abel .. who were 'the others' that he was so afraid of?? If they were alone on the planet there wouldn't be 'others' to be afraid of. Babylonian Origins of Adam and Eve Creation Myth

Noahs Ark is a fable. It is absolutely impossible for the entire earth to repopulate from 3 pairs of reproducing humans from 6,000 years ago. It is absolutely impossible for all the animals of the earth to have come from one reproducing pair of their species on a mountaintop in Turkey from 6000 years ago. Scientifically and absolutely impossible. Summerian Mythology Source for Noahs Ark Myth There have been major floods around the world, but there were survivors all over the planet and there was no 'one ark' that God spared with a family and two animals of each kind. Total myth. 101 Reasons Why Noahs Ark Doesn't Float .

Jonah didn't live for 3 days in a whales stomach. He couldn't live more than 10 minutes in a whales stomach let alone 3 days. It's scientifically and absolutely impossible.

The Ten Commandments are a doctrine of men and were NOT given to Moses on some mountaintop by God. The jews were never slaves in Egypt and they didn't live, en masse, in the desert for 40 years. The Egyptians who kept very good records have no records of any of this happening. There is no archeological evidence whatsoever in the desert. And if hundreds of thousands of people lived and died there, then there would be human bones, animal bones, pottery, etc. But there is NOTHING ... because it didn't happen.

Abraham may not have even existed. That's right. He supposedly lived in 2000 BC .. but the folklore about him wasn't written down until 500 BC. That's 1500 years of embellishments and changes to the story and addings on and takings off ... it's a totally unreliable folklore story.

Reform Judaism - Moses stories of Egypt are allegories

Jewish World Thinker - Jews were never slaves in Egypt

LA Times

After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.

Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel--whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges.

"Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we've broken the news very gently," said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America's preeminent archeologists.

BELIEVERpriest
The attempt to "debunk" the OT by Christians reflects a lack of faith. Its a serious contidtion of the soul and spirit.

1 - There is no 'attempting to debunk' happening. IT HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. Not attempted. DONE!

2 - Failure for Christians to use their brains reflects a lack of intelligence. It's a serious condition of the mind. (to use your words back atchya)

3 - Using the 'lack of faith' excuse for not looking at things critically is insanity. If a religion can't hold up in the light of facts, then it is unworthy of consideration.

4 - Shake off the indoctrination. Look at the facts. The truth will set you free.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

The attempt to "debunk" the OT by Christians reflects a lack of faith. Its a serious contention of the soul and spirit.

The OT was written by the same group who killed Jesus.

If you take the OT as myth, then you have to assume the events leading up to the the 2nd advent to be myth as well.

Good point.
OT prophecy was a misapprehension of a "Day of the Lord" where Jesus was the actual coming of the Lord.
"Second Coming" is the attempt by die-hard fundamentalists to reconcile the divergence.

reply to post by FlyersFan


For anyone capable of critical thinking (which is rare these days), faith in the Word of God is no simple task. So I will turn your argument on you:

Faith (for the scientific mind) requires critical thinking.

We need to understand that there are greater forces in the universe than just gravity based relativity, and politically correct Darwinism. Blind faith in these grossely over simplified (man made) theories reflects a lack of imagination. Even engineers require imagination to do their jobs.

Its a fact that certain magnetic frequencies can interrupt ones ability to speak, so is it impossible for the world to suddenly be divided into separate languages at the tower of bable?

The bible doesnt say the universe was created in 6 days, but that at some point, our solar system was made desolate, so it was restored in Six days. This is not impossibility under the theory of Plasma Cosmology.

The bible describes two of every kind of animal fitting into the ark. That can be understood as two of every species. All races of dogs descend from wolves, so apply that principle to the entire animal kingdom. Each representative collectively carrying the genetic information for the bio-diversity that exists today.

Adam was created from the elements of the earth. This is chemically true. Just because you were born of a woman doesnt mean that God couldnt come to earth and quantumly engineer Adam from soil. Eve was an easier case, she was genetically built from Adam.

The flood was probably the result of an axial shift. You only see the water above the crust, but there is an unknown amount of water trapped in chambers within the crust. Look at all the underground lakes and rivers that we are aware of.

The antediluvian water canopy was probably a layer of plasma-state water (it does exist), diamagneticly suspended above the ozone layer.

The parting of the red sea probably invoved diamagnetism as a result of the pillar of fire (ionic tornado).

You cant just write the OT off as a fairy tale just because man is to stupid to comprehend the full scale of God's power. He created the whole universe including self replicating life forms. He can certainly handle a handfull of miracles.

What about Jesus walking on water, the healings, speaking in tongues at pentacost? Are all those just myth too? What about Jesus' ressurection? If He wasnt ressurected, the how did His death bring atonement to any of us?

If the OT was a myth, then so was the reputation of Jesus, as He came to fulfill the OT.

So am I still "dead wrong", as you have so dismissively asserted? Im only proposing plausible possibilities. Who knows how it really happened, but Christians should know that the OT did happen.

@ Ff ... You seem to be forgetting that references to Abraham, Noah, Adam, Melchizedek, Moses etc are made by Jesus and the NT. So if you dismiss them as myths, then why are they referred to in the NT? Also, 2000 years of christian scholarshio do not teach that those OT figures were myths... So you are on your own.

BELIEVERpriest
Blind faith in these grossely over simplified (man made) theories reflects a lack of imagination.

Blind faith in these myths, fables, folklores and stories stolen from other cultures, all of which have been debunked and proven wrong, reflects a severe lack of intelligence and it gives Christians the reputation of being dolts. Simple fact .... most of the Old Testament did not happen. That's the TRUTH. If you wish to cling to your faith that the Old Testament is literal .. that's your choice. You are wrong. But go ahead and believe it.

sk0rpi0n
references to Abraham, Noah, Adam, Melchizedek, Moses etc are made by Jesus and the NT.

1 - Jesus said 'before Abraham I am'. That was his reference to the time of Abraham in the stories. That does not confirm the Abrahamic folklore.
2 - Jesus said 'in Noahs time'. That was a reference to the time of Noah in the story. That does not confirm the Noah myth.
3 - Melchizedek. I am unaware of Jesus speaking of Melchizedek. I can't find that verse. I have stated that Melchizedek may or may not be a real person. We do not know.
4 - Moses - Jesus does NOT confirm that the Jews were slaves or that they lived in the desert or that the hand of God wrote the 10 commandments. He just refers to Moses in John 5 as the person the Jews have their hopes set on.

2000 years of christian scholarshio do not teach that those OT figures were myths...

And yet here we are ... with the vast majority of modern Christian and Jewish scholars, admitting that these figures were probably myth and folklore because THEY HAVE TO. Science and sociology and archeology have proven these Old Testament stories to be wrong. Facts are facts. The ancient christian scholars assumed the stories were true. They got it wrong. Just as your 1400 years of Islamic scholarship assumes the stories in the Qu'ran are true. They are still getting it wrong. Science, archeology, and sociology has proven both groups of scholars WRONG.

So you are on your own.

Only in your dreams. The information I posted shows just the opposite. The majority of Christianity accepts FACTS ... and it's a fact that Adam and Eve didn't happen ... it's a fact that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt ... it's a fact that DNA science has proven Noahs Ark didn't happen ... it's a fact that DNA science and geology has proven the Earth is not 6,000 years old.

Blindly clinging to faith in something that is proven wrong .... that's not 'faith', that's just ignorance.

reply to post by FlyersFan

1 - Jesus said 'before Abraham I am'. That was his reference to the time of Abraham in the stories.

He also said "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day", its clear he was referred to Abraham, the person, not the time of Abraham.

Go read your Bible again.

That was a reference to the time of Noah in the story.

Read above.

- Melchizedek. I am unaware of Jesus speaking of Melchizedek. I can't find that verse. I have stated that Melchizedek may or may not be a real person. We do not know.

You stated quite confidently on another thread that Melchizedek was a myth.
Also, Jesus is referred to as a "priest in the order of Melchizedek". Its all there in your own Bible, go read it.

He just refers to Moses in John 5 as the person the Jews have their hopes set on.

Moses also shows up in the transfiguration of Jesus. I guess thats a "myth" to you as well.


Clearly, you don't even know the New Testament half of the Bible. And I don't waste my time on the scripturally illiterate.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The majority of Christianity accepts FACTS ... and it's a fact that Adam and Eve didn't happen ... it's a fact that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt

If Christians don't believe their own bible, then it means Christianity is on the verge of collapse.
GOOD.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Clearly, you don't even know the New Testament half of the Bible. And I don't waste my time on the scripturally illiterate.

Yeah, Sk0rp, you do. You even start threads to bait people (who are FAR beyond literacy in scripture) just so you can do your ad hominem insulting of their characters. Yet, you never answer questions put to you! Hmm.

/shrug

Cognitive dissonance. What made you leave Christianity? I've wondered, and asked before. WHY did you convert to Islam? What makes you think one is more "true" than the other? They are siblings, after all.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

The majority of Christianity accepts FACTS ... and it's a fact that Adam and Eve didn't happen ... it's a fact that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt

If Christians don't believe their own bible, then it means Christianity is on the verge of collapse.
GOOD.

You hit the nail on the head there. If christians cant accept the truth of the OT, then they really have no logical foundation for belief in Jesus. Sadly, we are witnessing the 'great falling away' as described by Paul.