Father disowns daughter in epic letter when she kicks out her gay son

Until I came back to ATS, I honestly never dreamed that there were so many hyper-rabid-bigoted-religious-zealots in the world of today. It's enough to make me wonder if there is some other source actually paying people to only pretend to be that crazy to discredit the place for some reason, because it's hard to believe that many people in one place really are.

I honestly believed that the primary advice to "love" that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and many other religious leaders and christs provided as guidance were the dominant guidance for religion. Actually maybe the conspiracy is instead to make christianity look bad, some evil spiritually-orwellian source just trying to discredit the whole of the religion using ATS as the billboard. It's working.

When I have occasionally heard a story about some young man admitting to his family he was gay and them completely freaking out, I would think it was so sad, but surely the exception, because as a mother, I just can't imagine what would have to be wrong with any parent who would react to their child like that. Upset for awhile, fine, it's an adjustment especially if there are religious issues, but disowning? Unthinkable to me.

Because I love my child with a power and thoroughness that I could never have imagined before parenthood.

I think there is something frighteningly messed up in a person, biologically or psychologically or both, who can flip on hate like a light switch for their offspring over something like that.

reply to post by AmberLeaf


you base this comment on the assumption that my not condoning homosexuality, is founded on religious principals.

whether or not that is true is frankly...irrelevant. To further clarify what i was saying, i do not condone homosexuality, however that would not be enough for me to disown my child.

"disownment" (for lack of better term) is not accomplished (in this house) by merely committing an act that i do not condone.

i do not condone theft, however if my child decides to steal something, that will not result in me disowning him or her. Now if they were to decide to do something like say....murder a person in the first degree, then that may result in my disowning of the child. in the issue of homosexuality i would make it clear that it is a choice one way or the other. albeit a subjective one..

reply to post by RedCairo


There is a trick to understanding any religion. Take the good book, scrolls or whatever form it is in. Tear from the good book all those pages added by men. Once you have done this, read what is left. In every major religion the message is the same.

Be kind to each other!

The problem is that all religious texts are altered by evil men and women to suit their own agendas. It is mankind that adds the hate and bigotry.

I watched once as a man died from aids over a period of time. His mate was with him until the end and the pure love that they shared made me envious. Love knows no bounds.

Live and let live, be kind to each other and relish and rejoice in all cultures. Celebrate the differences.

P

reply to post by FlyersFan

No. It's the whole point. It's a natural part of the animal kingdom.

Calm down.

It's not the point. I made my point in my subsequent sentence which you conveniently (or maybe you aren't educated enough to appreciate it) seemed to ignore.

The thinking that we do when we moralize is not something found in the animal kingdom. It is only natural to us. Again, epistemology, metaphysics, and ethics, are branches of human reasoning that explore the nature of existence.

Humans are animals. So it happens. And there isn't anything unethical or immoral about it.

Let me show you how this isn't the bottom line.

Oops, I just did. So homosexuality is found in the animal kingdom? So what. Animals are amoral creatures. They do not reflect upon the moral nature of their actions; if they do something, necessity or instinct impels it.

Thus, in the human world, we have a choice to make. How do we begin when ascertaining the moral quality of homosexual actions? What is the first premise? I'll tell you one thing: most homosexuals could give a $hit whether or not nature provides sanction to their actions. If it didn't, it wouldn't matter to them. And reference to it is more supplementary than fundamental in providing justification.

For me, I can't get past the whole conceptual-metaphysical ideas I've come to embrace. I see a particular beauty and order in the complementarity between the sexes. For me to warmly embrace homosexuality means to jettison that belief - and I don't want to do that. So, I live in the tense contradiction between supporting homosexual political rights and disapproving it on a personal moral level.

If my son or daughter were gay, I'd probably think to myself "$hit"; I'd talk to them to see what they wanted to do. If they were committed to living life this way, I'd support them, no matter how much it would irk me. Even though at a personal level, I disagree, I think my continual support would show them the overarching power of love.

THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL TOLERANCE. It means having the intellectual maturity to understand people think differently, and to accept those differences.

There is nothing more irritating to me than listening to lemmings chirp on about how "irrational" and "stupid" it is for anyone to disapprove of homosexuality. An opinion like this is just another highly emotional version of the fundamentalist tripe that demonizes homosexuality; it takes its version so seriously that nothing else could be conceivably justified. That logic only supports their argument - and not the other.

Fact is, logic could support either, because logic follows from first premises; intelligent people know that. Hence, intelligent people recognize the emotional basis of what propels human beliefs. You, for example, have jumped on the bandwagon in support of homosexuality. Of course, you have every right to believe that homosexuality should be morally justifiable - and in a certain, limited sense, it is. But for you to argue that because it is found in nature, it has a bullet-proof justification, only shows how unaccustomed you are to these sorts of discussions.

Self awareness is an important thing. It's important to be aware that you're view is conditioned by your earlier life experiences; that your current belief that homosexuality is moral extends from that emotional foundation; and so, it is a subjective opinion. Also, unbeknownst to you, most likely, you have an implied metaphysics. One, you probably think along utilitarian lines: if it makes them happy and causes no harm to anyone else, why stop them? (there is a cogency to this view). You also seem to think that nature provides a metaphysical framework for moral behavior. Etc, etc

So much more could be discussed here, yet, most users at ATS are notoriously enable to maintain university-level conversations about ethics and philosophy. So I wilt leave.

AthlonSavage
she did right thing.

Putting her teenage son out of the street, because of something he has no choice in?

When I was a young adult (teenager) growing up around a lot of ignorant people, I too once thought homosexuality was a 'choice'. Luckily, I got to spend time around several children who from the ages 6 on, were obviously homosexual. It wasn't a choice for them, anymore than being straight is a choice for me. It is what it is.

People who have hate in their hearts for those with a different sexual preference are always going to find a way to try and rationalize their hate. Afterall, that is what humans do when they hate something....they A) Try to rationalize the hate, and B) try to spread it.


There is NO such thing as a mother who is intolerate of her child, based on their sexual preference. There is NO such thing....because that 'thing' that might be called a 'mother' is indeed, no mother. She isn't a mother, anymore than a doll is a person. She is nothing but a shallow, superficial bag of bones, unfit for the word 'mother'.

Christian Voice
It is no secret on here how I feel about homosexuality. My mother in law(who is insanely liberal minded) asked me one time what I would if my son told me he was gay. My response was this:

I would have a talk with him and make sure he knows where his Mother and I stand on the topic as well as God's position. Yes God is very clear on his stance of homosexuality despite all of the perverting of the Bible that some homosexuals on here try and do. I would reiterate how much I Love him and he is always welcome in my home however he would not bring that into our home. What he does in the privacy of his own home when he does move out is his business but he will not bring it into our home. OUR HOME, OUR RULES.
With that said I don't see that happening though. He is being raised in a Loving Christian home with both parents who show each other Love every single day. He does not ever have to wonder if his parents Love each other and does not have to wonder if we Love him. He is not bombarded constantly by sexual crap on TV as we rarely watch TV and if we do it is very family friendly programming. He is not bombarded by the perverse entertainment industry at all as we monitor very closely what he watches. Everytime you turn on the idiot box or put a movie in the gay agenda is shoved down our dang throats. So we rarely watch tv and are very selective on our movies. We also are very careful of those he surrounds himself with. (You are who you associate with),,, lie with dogs and come up with fleas.
Now, LET THE CHRISTIAN BASHING BEGIN.......

When you end your rant with "LET THE CHRISTIAN BASHING BEGIN..." you make it clear just how defensive, by nature, you are of your beliefs.

You cherish your beliefs, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You are obviously ignorant on what homosexuality is....and believe me, I would NEVER blame christianity for that.....I blame YOU.

It doesn't matter HOW you raise your son. Homosexuality isn't the result of "too much tv" , contact with liberals, listening to a Lady Gaga CD, or hanging out with the "wrong crowd" (which in your mind is probably anyone who doesn't sleep with a bible under their pillow).

Homosexuality is not a choice....anymore than being "straight" is a choice. I don't know about YOU.....but I didn't turn out heterosexual because my parents raised me the "right way".....I turned out heterosexual because I AM heterosexual.

Christian Voice
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Your family has not held Christianity sacred if they believe that God is pro gay. Hate to burst that bubble. Sorry to say this too, if your oldest son is gay then I'd seriously question his home life when he was growing up.

This quote right here is all anyone needs to read to get an idea of the agenda this so-called Christian has.

"if your oldest son is gay then I'd seriously question his home life"

If that quote doesn't tell you everything you need to know right there about this person's abundance of ignorance on the reality of this issue, then I don't know WHAT to say


Normally, I wouldn't comment on something so ignorant, so hateful, and so blatantly disrespectful....but the reason I quoted this person, isn't to insult or offend them....for they have done that to themselves...

the reason is because this type of thinking isn't an isolated incident. There are literally MILLIONS of individuals who occupy this world with us....who think along these lines. That is someone is homosexual.....something is WRONG with them. They weren't raised right.....they weren't loved....they were beaten or molested, or tortured into being gay. People actually THINK this way.

Then THEY have the nerve to speak about a "gay agenda". Yes.....there is a "gay agenda" in this country. The agenda is to get self-centered, ignorant, deluded individuals to stop hating people based on their sexuality.

pheonix358
In every major religion the message is the same.

Be kind to each other!

Huxley called that "The Perennial Philosophy."

reply to post by supermarket2012


your just a guy speculating on the feelings of the mother. Nice rant however

reply to post by supermarket2012


it was a cheap shot at best.

I know I am an amazing father. Because I work so damn hard at it. So questioning the home life of my kids....all I can do is LOL at it. Because it indicates that his argument is so weak ad hominem is all he is left with.

AthlonSavage
reply to post by supermarket2012

 

your just a guy speculating on the feelings of the mother. Nice rant however

Thank you


bigfurrytexan said:


"it was a cheap shot at best.

I know I am an amazing father. Because I work so damn hard at it. So questioning the home life of my kids....all I can do is LOL at it. Because it indicates that his argument is so weak ad hominem is all he is left with."



That is the thing though....it wasn't a cheap shot. I've spent enough time on the internet to know the difference between someone trolling....and someone expressing how they really feel. If the person was just trolling, I wouldn't waste my time replying....but you can tell that poor soul actually BELIEVES in what he/she is typing. THAT is why I replied.

I wish it was just an attempt at a cheap shot to offend you....because then it wouldn't have been an issue either way...we'd all get a good chuckle at the poster's expense....or simply ignore it.

The sad fact is...the person ACTUALLY believes that YOU must have done something WRONG...if your child is homosexual. That is a very...disturbing to the say the least, perspective on things. Not to mention just how bigoted, and skewed it is.

Then the person had the nerve to actually say "I think I deserve more respect on here". Yes....they actually said that.


This letter that the thread is about actually makes for great subject material, because it is extremely necessary that this topic gets talked about. Best case scenario, some previously ignorant folks might wake up, and have a change of heart. Worst case scenario, the sane members of humanity will at least now know who among us thinks in such hateful/ignorant ways.


As a father, I could NEVER imagine abandoning my son due to his sexual preference. At the point in life where he needs you the MOST.....how could you turn your back on him? Over what? Sometimes I truly wonder what world these hateful people live in.

There are a lot of issues here...to many for one thread or even one forum! Wow!

Private business being made public is just one. Secondly, It's pretty clear that homosexuality isn't just a minor choice that some people make because they either want to be evil or they were tricked into being evil. Third..Thirdly? What if you're not a Christian? I'm not so...if you are does that mean that you think you have higher moral ground than I do? Then we devolve into what Jesus said as opposed to what was said in the old testament, but that brings up the whole Christian not Christian thing of it. And then some have mentioned that married, loving families that watch little television should never have gay offspring??? What? What if they do, does that then place the blame of the offspring's sexuality on the parent that caused the divorce or if I let me child watch Hannah Montana how much negative effect does that have on their sexuality and why would anyone care? Good lord! Grow up people!

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


The point I was trying to make is that the morality of society has degraded. If you think this country has maintained or evolved in character then be my guest and try to prove that. But the case is evident.. and america has become immoral. What happens in secret and in small sects will always be around, and prostitution has been around for a long time even in the golden days of any society. But to become openly degraded is another thing.. It was once taboo to see a woman naked in movies, and now we have it all the time. It was taboo to be openly gay and kiss in public, and now they are getting married. I can go on, but i hope you get the point. I'm not denying that immorality still existed, but the point is that even the gangs of New York once had honor and class.. Today's gangs beat up a random person just because they are bored.

reply to post by FlyersFan


The Bible is actually very clear about homosexuality.. "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." [Leviticus 20:13] Also similar saying in Lev 18:22. But if the old testament is too outdated for some of you, there is also Romans 1:26-27 "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Now that that has been settled.. the point is being missed about the morality of homosexuality. Why is it that it takes a book, or a law, or a witness to tell you what is immoral and what isn't? What if there was no bible around? Or laws? Would we engulf into chaos or realize on our own that it's not in our best interest to kill.. steal.. rape each other. Same goes with homosexuality. Lets pretend that 100% of our society is entirely homosexual; that would be our last generation. Because it is not in any biological or society's best interest to not reproduce and carry on humanity.

Here's another point.. some of you think that it's not a big deal since the population of gays are small, and there is nothing to worry about. That's actually quite similar to the mindset of the Roman empire before it fell. A little here, a little there, and before you know it you have presidents taking away your rights, an oppressive police state arrises, congress has a 10% approval rating, we have the world's most incarcerated population, and we produce 89% of the world's porn.

If you don't get it by now, then i'm sorry.. America deserves what is coming. All of you know what is happening around us, and yet you close your eyes and still don't realize that we're in this mess not because of God, or because we didn't read the bible enough, but because we have fallen to our own immorality.

reply to post by WorthlessServant


So was society more moral when it was ok to own the labour of another person, without paying any recompense, because of the colour of their skin? Is it the sign of a more moral time where half the population are considered unworthy to vote, to work except for a few professions like teaching and nursing, and generally seen as fit to be cooks and concubines? It was a more moral time when things like homosexuality, drug addiction, and mental illness were seen as conditions affecting only the morally weak and undesirables of society?

Yes, it's interesting to look at how our morality has declined - mixed race marriages, greater acceptance of alternative lifestyles, minorities in politics (even in the higher echelons of the halls of power), and obvious examples of moral degeneracy in what seems to be the beginnings of viewing substance abuse and addiction as a health issue rather than one of law and order.

One can only hope that we return to a more upright morality, where people know their position in society, women return to their correct place witing for hubbie to get home (as there can only ever be one head of the household), and homosexuals get back in the closet and never have the temerity to try and foist their moral weakness on the upstanding citizens who have no time for such nonsense, never again.

cuckooold
reply to post by WorthlessServant

 

So was society more moral when it was ok to own the labour of another person, without paying any recompense, because of the colour of their skin? Is it the sign of a more moral time where half the population are considered unworthy to vote, to work except for a few professions like teaching and nursing, and generally seen as fit to be cooks and concubines? It was a more moral time when things like homosexuality, drug addiction, and mental illness were seen as conditions affecting only the morally weak and undesirables of society?

There is poor practice in every society like i mentioned before, but i didn't suggest to return to those practices, but to the general uprightness of society. It's almost like you point the finger at me to say that i supported slavery, and oppression. Let's also not forget that 1/2 the country you have resentment against fought the civil war to help free slaves.

Yes, it's interesting to look at how our morality has declined - mixed race marriages, greater acceptance of alternative lifestyles, minorities in politics (even in the higher echelons of the halls of power), and obvious examples of moral degeneracy in what seems to be the beginnings of viewing substance abuse and addiction as a health issue rather than one of law and order.

"Alternative lifestyles" is used loosely; and doesn't clearly define "moral" alternatives. Substance abuse and addiction is a good indicator of immorality, why? Because most people wouldn't run to the nearest dealer to buy heroine if it was made legal. Also, i'm not a bigot as you seem to suggest, i have no problem with minorities.

One can only hope that we return to a more upright morality, where people know their position in society, women return to their correct place witing for hubbie to get home (as there can only ever be one head of the household), and homosexuals get back in the closet and never have the temerity to try and foist their moral weakness on the upstanding citizens who have no time for such nonsense, never again.

A moral society is not defined by knowing your "position" or a woman's "place". This has nothing to do with actual morality. Morality is treating others fairly and how you'd like to be treated.. loving your "woman" and treating her with dignity and respect. Don't confuse structure with morals

reply to post by WorthlessServant


The way you define morality....you realize that your definition relates to how you treat others. Meanwhile, your working understanding also seems to include how someone chooses to have sex.

Not to mention the idea that someone who likes heroin only does it because its illegal. If thats true, then you have single handedly given the reason that the War on Drugs is set to fail by design.

WorthlessServant
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

The Bible is actually very clear about homosexuality.. "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." [Leviticus 20:13] Also similar saying in Lev 18:22. But if the old testament is too outdated for some of you, there is also Romans 1:26-27 "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

CUrious....why do you pay attention to that, but have not yet stoned your wife to death for wearing pants?

Now that that has been settled.. the point is being missed about the morality of homosexuality. Why is it that it takes a book, or a law, or a witness to tell you what is immoral and what isn't? What if there was no bible around? Or laws? Would we engulf into chaos or realize on our own that it's not in our best interest to kill.. steal.. rape each other. Same goes with homosexuality. Lets pretend that 100% of our society is entirely homosexual; that would be our last generation. Because it is not in any biological or society's best interest to not reproduce and carry on humanity.

Incorrect. It is highly plausible that homosexuality is linked to genetic markers passed on by the father (if you really want me to dig up the study, i can). Even if it is not, the notion that we still need to continue to reproduce is just silly. We are infesting this planet like cockroaches. Reproducing may not be the best thing. What I am getting at here is, could homosexuality not be a biological response to crowding?

In any event, we hae enough straight people on this planet to continue our explosive reproductive growth...it hasn't stopped us yet

Here's another point.. some of you think that it's not a big deal since the population of gays are small, and there is nothing to worry about. That's actually quite similar to the mindset of the Roman empire before it fell. A little here, a little there, and before you know it you have presidents taking away your rights, an oppressive police state arrises, congress has a 10% approval rating, we have the world's most incarcerated population, and we produce 89% of the world's porn.

Wait...what? That was like a Slippery Slope Fallacy on steroids.

If you don't get it by now, then i'm sorry.. America deserves what is coming. All of you know what is happening around us, and yet you close your eyes and still don't realize that we're in this mess not because of God, or because we didn't read the bible enough, but because we have fallen to our own immorality.

You poor, tortured soul.

Astrocyte
Calm down.

Get over yourself. I'm not uptight. Your comment is out of line.

epistemology, metaphysics, and ethics,

Irrelevant to the fact that many animals are naturally homosexual. And putting self imposed restrictions on that behavior is just that ... SELF IMPOSED . Basing that self imposed restriction on archaic religious beliefs is just silly and unevolved.

most users at ATS are notoriously enable to maintain university-level conversations about ethics and philosophy. So I wilt leave.

1 - My degree is in psychology. And a good number of ATSers have college degrees.
2 - If it's so bad here and people are so stupid .. then why are you here. Just leave.

WorthlessServant
The Bible is actually very clear about homosexuality..

And none of that is from God. Men wrote those who claimed to be speaking for God. Yet they have no proof that they were. And their own cultural biases are obvious in the writings in the bible. Onanism for example. Another example - women have to cover their heads (which came from the ancient mythology of the bad angels coming down and raping women, so women had to hide with head coverings). Cultural biases. Jesus said nothing on homosexuality. He just said this .... Love God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. THAT IS IT.