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Modern masters of science are much impressed with the need of beginning all inquiry with a fact. The ancient masters of religion were quite equally impressed with that necessity. They began with the fact of sin--a fact as practical as potatoes. Whether or no man could be washed in miraculous waters, there was no doubt at any rate that he wanted washing.
But certain religious leaders in London, not mere materialists, have begun in our day not to deny the highly disputable water, but to deny the indisputable dirt. Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved. Some followers of the Reverend R.J.Campbell, in their almost too fastidious spirituality, admit divine sinlessness, which they cannot see even in their dreams. But they essentially deny human sin, which they can see in the street.
The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.
There was the exception of Mary, who was prepared for the role of Jesus' mother from the time of her conception, and some Biblical figures who became righteous, but righteousness is not the common lot of man until we have been forgiven and start over.
Luke 1
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
So what? By that I mean take or leave original sin, there is or there isn't any such thing, by the time we've been able to make choices for a year or so, we've all sinned.
Who hasn't been hateful or greedy? Who hasn't told a lie or been lustful. So whether we are sinners on the day of our conception or the day we turn six, what is the significance in your eyes?
I believe she was born sinless, therefore righteous. The Church teaches she stayed sinless, and I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.
Was Mary Righteous? Was she born that way? Do you think that Mary sinned, ever?
Because the preparation was before she was even born. I suspect she was born as a normal girl in the eyes of everyone, and grew up impressing the neighbors with her piety and obedience.
If Mary was prepared for her role as a virgin mother, why did it come as a surprise to her?
You see sin as something that is born from evil.
Something that emanates from a deity that is deliberately working against your God.
Ok, can you believe in sin as deliberately distancing ourselves from God? Turning to follow some other desire rather than the desire for Him?
I don't believe in sin, per say, as defined as going against God's will or breaking God's law.
We are, after Eden, meant to become perfect.
We weren't meant to be born perfect.
Although the wording is unusual, I can agree with you. But I would insist that the reflection we are now, is a cracked and dirty one. The reflection has to be mended and kept clean.
I believe that my soul IS the essence of who I am, and who I am, naturally, is a reflection of God. I think that all "dis-ease" is born from not being true to who we really are. We are learning to be who we are, and to be the same on the inside (thought) as we are on the outside (deeds), and to become completely transparent (naked), without shame.
I rejoice that you are a better person, I would like to be one, too. But be careful with using the term "mistake." I can make a "mistake" in adding and never know it. Mistakes are expected, we're only human. What we deal with in this world is sin. We know what is right, and do the wrong thing anyway. Or, even, we know what is right, and fail to do it.
I have made mistakes that have caused others pain, and knowing that, I feel a pang of remorse. I learn from these painful experiences, both committed by me and against me, and use my inner moral compass to move forward and learn from my mistakes, making me a better person for it.
We weren't meant to be born perfect.
sk0rpi0n
Such theologies are not in line with these Biblical teachings regarding sin, repentance and forgiveness.
601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401
"For our sake God made him to be sin"
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402 Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."404
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".407
I believe she was born sinless, therefore righteous. The Church teaches she stayed sinless, and I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.
Mary had daily contact with God, that had to have a huge effect on her.
Ok, can you believe in sin as deliberately distancing ourselves from God? Turning to follow some other desire rather than the desire for Him?
I rejoice that you are a better person, I would like to be one, too.
windword
The life and teachings of Jesus is testimony enough. Paul is superfluous!
He wasnt' saying the righteous were sinless and didn't need him. What he said was very obvious
sk0rpi0n
Jesus differentiated between the righteous and the sinners... in stark contrast to the Christian doctrine that everybody is a sinner...
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism.
Mary was sinless at birth only because a unique gift and preparation was given to her. Other babies (with the exception of Jesus) are not so blessed.
How can a baby, that has absolutely no capacity to sin, be righteous? If Mary was righteous at birth, then all babies are born righteous.
She had free will, she could have said no to Gabriel, she could have sinned, but she chose not to do either.
If God prepared Mary, in the womb before her birth, to be sinless, does that mean that she didn't have the capacity to sin? If God prepared Mary, in the womb before her birth, to be sinless, does that mean that she didn't have free will?
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect.
Yes, in a way, but only Mary changed His diapers. (Or listened to Him as He tried to learn Aramaic, or carpentry, or at play.)
Don't all of God's children have daily contact with God?
Believe it or not, maybe we don't. For there to be a mortal (or really serious) sin, one has to be in control of one's mind and actions. An insane person, or one acting under the influence of drugs, or some similar condition, has reduced capacity to sin, or none at all. As the catechism says:
You and I have a fundamental difference in our definitions of sin.
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."
Even if the robber is correct, how in the world did he get the idea that God wanted him to get money by threatening people and stealing it?
A bank robber may be convinced that it's not God's will that he should be poor.
Not by a reasonably sane person.
Sin may be committed to impress God.
Again, he's nuts. Illusions, falsehoods, and death aren't divine, they don't come from God. The same is true for the addict, although, in his own way, he is also insane. And, as you point out, he has no control over himself.
Or, a serial killer, who kills for "fun", may do so because at the time of his victims death, he glimpses the divine spark as it leaves, or as the divine embraces the victim, as angels swoop in to take that soul to heaven. It may be the only way that the sick mind of a serial killer can experience the divine.
.........and death aren't divine, they don't come from God.
He's saying I started with no possessions and will end with no possessions. God gave me the possessions, they're His to do with as He wills. As far as the possessions go, removing some or all of our possessions is not necessarily evil.
and said, “Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”