The Unitarian Universalists: EVERYONE reunites with the Divine = no 'Hell'.

reply to post by Rex282


In order for Perfect Judgment and Holiness to exist there must be fair and just consequences to actions, equal and opposite reactions for every action, God in His Holiness uses his Righteous Judgement to deem fit the punishment of the wicked, both in this life and the life in the world to come....

reply to post by godlover25

Righteous Judgement to deem fit the punishment of the wicked

It is not righteous to punish a soul for eternity for a finite infraction. It is not just, either. It is wrathful vengeance, brutality, and tyranny.

I commit a crime; I do my time and make restitution. Then I am allowed to put it behind me as a mistake for which I paid, justly and righteously. Even human beings allow this for one another.

You are simply anthropomorphizing - assigning HUMAN WEAKNESSES to your God. God is not a person. We can't fathom God. Nor can we assume the gender, agenda, general temperament, sensibilities, or any kind of human "qualities" or "behaviors" of 'God'. It is presumptuous, egotistical, and (as the Buddha said) "inappropriate" to even try.

When asked if a Buddha who had attained nirvana lived after death, he dismissed the question as 'improper'. It was like
asking what direction a flame went when it 'went out'. It was equally wrong to say that a Buddha existed in nirvana as that he did not exist: the
word 'exist' bore no relation to any state that we can understand. We shall find that over the centuries, Jews, Christians and Muslims have made
the same reply to the question of the 'existence' of God. The Buddha was trying to show that language was not equipped to deal with a reality
that lay beyond concepts and reason. Again, he did not deny reason but insisted on the importance of clear and accurate thinking and use of
language. Ultimately, however, he held that the theology or beliefs that a person held, like the ritual he took part in, were unimportant. They
could be interesting but not a matter of final significance. The only thing that counted was the good life; if it were attempted, Buddhists would
find that the Dharma was true, even if they could not express this truth in logical terms.

from Karen Armstrong's A History of God (link goes to a free online copy of the book)

reply to post by wildtimes


Hi Wildtimes
I bumped into your post and was intrigued. Just like you I went through my own searching, thinking, research, and introspection and I landed in a different place – I decided to go with the message of Jesus. One thing in your post that caught my eye is that you mention the UUs “believe in the MESSAGE of Jesus, but also acknowledge the good and true bits in other religions” and that “The UUs embrace ALL religious traditions, and YES, THEY BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE WILL GET TO REUNITE with the DIVINE”.

Question for discussion: Is it theoretically possible to BOTH believe in the message Jesus AND simultaneously believe that everyone will get to reunite with God? Let me explain my rationale:

- Jesus taught about love for your neighbor, kindness, and other good deeds etc. Those same things leaders of other religions also taught, so those are not “The Message” of Jesus.

- “The Message” of Jesus that is distinctly different and unique from anything ever taught by leaders of any other religion is the teaching that Jesus the one and only, exclusive way to get reunited with God, and the only way to access it is simply through faith in Jesus, nothing else. Through your research you are probably already aware of the following couple of bible verses which capture “The Message” of Jesus

John 14:6> “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me”.

John 6:28-29> 28 They (the people) replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”
29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

John 3:36> “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them”

- This is the conclusion I came to:
If I believe that Jesus is the only way to God, then it means I do not believe that there’s any other way.
Conversely, if I believe that all people will get reunited with God through other ways outside of Jesus, then it means that I do not believe Jesus’s message. I therefore struggle as to how, at an intellectual level, it is possible to BOTH believe Jesus’ message AND, at the same time, also believe that everyone will be reunited with God. To me it appears mutually exclusive.

What do you think?

Yahoshua did not have a "message" that he taught and if you believe it you get saved or it's a blueprint how to be a good person.Those are the doctrines of men..religion.
Yahoshua made proclamations about how things were...The Truth.He clearly stated... the words I speak to you are spirit and truth the flesh(the religious carnal mind through religion) avails nothing (has no value..i.e..... means nothing) .Yahoshua NEVER taught religion..any religion ...Jewish, Christian, Gnostic ,Essene..etc etc.He "preached" the gospel...the setting free of the captives....that's all.

When he said I am the way the Truth and the Life he wasn't teaching a doctrine of men.He was proclaiming the core foundation truth.Yahoshua means God is salvation...

Yahoshua IS the way and Truth and life.The religious carnal mind assumes he was saying something religious of himself alone when he wasn't at all.

Will those that believe in Yahoshua be saved ..yes..will those that don't 'believe in Yahoshua "now" be saved ..yes..Yahoshua is God's salvation which is saving (delivering) EVERYONE ..i.e...all of mankind from the valley of the shadow of death..the physical realm.

Belief is not what saves... grace does(you are SAVED BY grace THROUGH faith) grace is the power of salvation (deliverance).Grace is "through" faith which is the priming of the water well.It is not the water.It is not drinking the water.It is not what the water "does".Both grace and faith are "given" by God they aren't mans.

All will come to "believe" God though not all will in this age.However even belief is not knowing. Belief is for babes.That is always who Yahoshua (the disciples) and Paul (the church ....which means an assembly of people) were speaking of to "believe".They knew the order faith comes 1st (babes) then knowing (maturity).

Yahoshua clearly stated .If you continue in my word(the living word..salvation) then you are truly my disciple and you WILL KNOW the truth and the truth WILL make you free.Salivations purpose is " knowing" God...being in communion with God...babes(children) believe..Sons(mature) know God.

The religious carnal mind "believes" it is mature when it just a babe.The disciples were babes the whole time they were with Yahoshua.It took "years" after for them to mature.Salvation is not an event and POOF you are changed (repent).It is a process .... a looooong process..in fact...it is infinite.

Babes believe they have obtained the zenith (or at least close) of salvation yet they know nothing of God.The path is WIDE that leads to destruction.The wide gate of destruction is the destroying of mans belief...religion...like false belief in God sentencing any man to the eternal punishment of hell.(which is blasphemy of the spirit).

God is very aware of all that is happening.No one is deceiving God.God knows the way of a child very well. God is working ALL things according to Gods good purposes and WILL.

God is 100% in control of everything. Everyone will be delivered from the the valley of the shadow of death and everything else and will "know" God .That is ...God is salvation...Yahoshua.The way the Truth and the life.The good news.

reply to post by wildtimes


There is no hell, not in the concept of Dante's Inferno which is a work of fiction and based on the greek Tartarus. Hell should be translated as "Sheol" which root word in Hebrew means "unseen" and refers to "the grave" or "the pit" or "abyss" or "bottomless pit" which is to say, the torment of never ending death or the endless grave or as some would call it nowadays...oblivion which is nonexistence.

So, for all you atheists out there, you get your wish. Just reject Jesus Christ and you get to disappear into the darkness of eternity and cease to exist because that's what happens to you when the Lord erases your name from the book of Life, he forgets you ever existed. And if he forgets you ever existed, then you cease to exist. To your family members who do follow him, they will forget you ever existed.

Much worse punishment than burning by fire for all eternity, because there's nothing worse than being forgotten and ceasing to exist. A blink of the eye and, poof! No more you. Thrown out with the garbage in Gehenna, the trash dump of the universe.

Now aren't you glad we got this all cleared up Wildtimes? The Lord did say he would blot whoever sins against him out of the book of life, so obviously the universalist creed of universal reconciliation goes pft! Out the window.

Yes much, much more terrifying than burning for eternity.

lonewolf19792000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is no hell, not in the concept of Dante's Inferno which is a work of fiction and based on the greek Tartarus. Hell should be translated as "Sheol" which root word in Hebrew means "unseen" and refers to "the grave" or "the pit" or "abyss" or "bottomless pit" which is to say, the torment of never ending death or the endless grave or as some would call it nowadays...oblivion which is nonexistence.

So, for all you atheists out there, you get your wish. Just reject Jesus Christ and you get to disappear into the darkness of eternity and cease to exist because that's what happens to you when the Lord erases your name from the book of Life, he forgets you ever existed. And if he forgets you ever existed, then you cease to exist. To your family members who do follow him, they will forget you ever existed.

Much worse punishment than burning by fire for all eternity, because there's nothing worse than being forgotten and ceasing to exist. A blink of the eye and, poof! No more you.

Now aren't you glad we got this all cleared up Wildtimes? The Lord did say he would blot whoever sins against him out of the book of life, so obviously the universalist creed of universal reconciliation goes pft! Out the window.

Yes much, much more terrifying than burning for eternity.

Who is this God of Love, that with his/her Almightiness and longstanding patience (befitting an all-powerful, all-knowing all-situated entity)...the creator of all that is seen and unseen (presumably also the 'invisible-room' you describe) and the naughty Louie Cipher whom the creator of all that is seen and unseen cannot, in one instant POOF! relegate to eternal invisibility and forgettingness?

That would be Love befitting true divinity...worthy of the 'All' prefixes, not attached to one who makes mistakes, and cobbles post-fixes...

Å99

akushla99

lonewolf19792000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is no hell, not in the concept of Dante's Inferno which is a work of fiction and based on the greek Tartarus. Hell should be translated as "Sheol" which root word in Hebrew means "unseen" and refers to "the grave" or "the pit" or "abyss" or "bottomless pit" which is to say, the torment of never ending death or the endless grave or as some would call it nowadays...oblivion which is nonexistence.

So, for all you atheists out there, you get your wish. Just reject Jesus Christ and you get to disappear into the darkness of eternity and cease to exist because that's what happens to you when the Lord erases your name from the book of Life, he forgets you ever existed. And if he forgets you ever existed, then you cease to exist. To your family members who do follow him, they will forget you ever existed.

Much worse punishment than burning by fire for all eternity, because there's nothing worse than being forgotten and ceasing to exist. A blink of the eye and, poof! No more you.

Now aren't you glad we got this all cleared up Wildtimes? The Lord did say he would blot whoever sins against him out of the book of life, so obviously the universalist creed of universal reconciliation goes pft! Out the window.

Yes much, much more terrifying than burning for eternity.

Who is this God of Love, that with his/her Almightiness and longstanding patience (befitting an all-powerful, all-knowing all-situated entity)...the creator of all that is seen and unseen (presumably also the 'invisible-room' you describe) and the naughty Louie Cipher whom the creator of all that is seen and unseen cannot, in one instant POOF! relegate to eternal invisibility and forgettingness?

That would be Love befitting true divinity...worthy of the 'All' prefixes, not attached to one who makes mistakes, and cobbles post-fixes...

Å99

It's good to see that you see the humor in what the religious carnal mind conjures up.If the creator God that the religious believe in was real it wouldn't be funny at all.It would be terror beyond imagination.I think it is far,far,far better to disbelieve in that "God" than to believe in then indict a creator God with the most insidious crimes ever committed.To deny that kind of ignorance is truly bliss ...keep disbelieving brother.

Rex282

akushla99

lonewolf19792000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

There is no hell, not in the concept of Dante's Inferno which is a work of fiction and based on the greek Tartarus. Hell should be translated as "Sheol" which root word in Hebrew means "unseen" and refers to "the grave" or "the pit" or "abyss" or "bottomless pit" which is to say, the torment of never ending death or the endless grave or as some would call it nowadays...oblivion which is nonexistence.

So, for all you atheists out there, you get your wish. Just reject Jesus Christ and you get to disappear into the darkness of eternity and cease to exist because that's what happens to you when the Lord erases your name from the book of Life, he forgets you ever existed. And if he forgets you ever existed, then you cease to exist. To your family members who do follow him, they will forget you ever existed.

Much worse punishment than burning by fire for all eternity, because there's nothing worse than being forgotten and ceasing to exist. A blink of the eye and, poof! No more you.

Now aren't you glad we got this all cleared up Wildtimes? The Lord did say he would blot whoever sins against him out of the book of life, so obviously the universalist creed of universal reconciliation goes pft! Out the window.

Yes much, much more terrifying than burning for eternity.

Who is this God of Love, that with his/her Almightiness and longstanding patience (befitting an all-powerful, all-knowing all-situated entity)...the creator of all that is seen and unseen (presumably also the 'invisible-room' you describe) and the naughty Louie Cipher whom the creator of all that is seen and unseen cannot, in one instant POOF! relegate to eternal invisibility and forgettingness?

That would be Love befitting true divinity...worthy of the 'All' prefixes, not attached to one who makes mistakes, and cobbles post-fixes...

Å99

It's good to see that you see the humor in what the religious carnal mind conjures up.If the creator God that the religious believe in was real it wouldn't be funny at all.It would be terror beyond imagination.I think it is far,far,far better to disbelieve in that "God" than to believe in then indict a creator God with the most insidious crimes ever committed.To deny that kind of ignorance is truly bliss ...keep disbelieving brother.

'Family' gets misunderstood (to allay the units' own tacit involvement)...the misunderstanding (as long as it achieves purpose) is either bullseye, or thereabouts...when it misses the board altogether (and in the dynamic of familial role-play) unit can make up stories to make it seem the arrow hit the board, or, design complex scenarios that would bring you closer to an imaginery mark (make excuses)...

Hell (and the main character Louie Cipher), could not have been dreamt up, designed, created by a loving God, that is so Almighty, he/she cannot POOF! a creation out of existence...I don't see how anyone can not see this as Origami of the finest kind, to fold a notion into a monstrous (yet ever-loving - and all the other superlatives that fundies love) human tyrant...glad you're on the same page...

Å99

reply to post by Rex282


Hi Rex282,
Thank you for your insightful response. I’m interested to explore further some of the concepts/assertions you explained to the extent I am not familiar with them. I would also like to share what I believe, together with the accompanying reasons for believing that.

I notice that you quoted some verses from the bible in your response – I am therefore presuming that just like me, you already regard the bible:
1.To be the word of God
2. To be the source of truth (because it’s the word of God)

The rest of what I say in this response is built on that presumption that you and me both agree that the bible is the source of truth (since we both quoted from it, despite that we interpreted the quoted verses differently). PLEASE CONFIRM WHETHER MY PRESUMPTION IS ACCURATE?

Next, you raised a very relevant point that we can also explore – whether a concept/assertion is a doctrine of man, or truth. Assuming that we both agree that the bible is the word of God and source of truth (since we both quoted from it), I think we can both agree to use the following as a test to determine whether a concept is just a doctrine of man (ie made up by man) or the truth (coming from God):

THE TEST – If a concept can be traced back to the bible and supported with specific bible verses then that concept is truth. However, if a concept cannot be supported from the bible then it means that concept is made up by man, ie is just a doctrine of man.
PLEASE CONFIRM WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THIS TEST TO DISTINGUISH DOCTRINE OF MAN FROM TRUTH.

Now on to specific discussion points:
1. I am way, truth life

Bible verse:
John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me”.

Question:
What does the part which says “No one can come to the Father except through me” mean to you?

2. Set captives free

Bible verse:
Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and the regaining of sight to the blind,
to set free those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Discussion:
a) When Jesus said “He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives”, what kind of captivity was he talking about?

To me, the explanation for the kind of “captivity” is in the following verses:

John 8:34-35> 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

3. Will ALL people be saved?

a) In your response you said that “will those that don't 'believe in Yahoshua "now" be saved ..yes..Yahoshua is God's salvation which is saving (delivering) EVERYONE ..i.e...all of mankind from the valley of the shadow of death..the physical realm” and that “All will come to "believe" God though not all will in this age”

Question: Which specific bible verses supports these assertions?

b) Here’s the bible basis for the assertion that “now” is the only time when one ever has the choice to believe/have faith in Jesus and be saved:

Hebrews 9:27-28>27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, 28 so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

4. Saved by grace through faith

I fully agree with you. Faith and grace are from God. The only condition that God has laid down is that these will be given only to those who have made the conscious choice to believe in Jesus. To me it sounds logical given that someone can’t claim to have faith is something they do not believe. Here are the verses on which my understanding comes from

John 6:29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

John 3:16-18>16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

Romans 10:10-11>10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.

5. Is hell a doctrine of man, or is it bible truth?

Here’s what the bible says:

Daniel 12:2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

Matthew 25:46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
(Slight digression: Clarification that righteousness referred to here is imputed righteousness through faith in Jesus – see Romans 1:17, Philippians 3:9)

John 5:28-29> 28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

John 3:36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

Matthew 13:40-43 40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world.41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

6. Is salvation a one-time event or a long, continuous infinite process

Here’s what the bible says.

Luke 19:8-9>8 Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood before the Lord and said, “I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I have cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back four times as much!” 9 Jesus responded, “Salvation HAS COME to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man[a] came to seek and save those who are lost.”

John 5: 24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, BUT THEY HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH INTO LIFE.

1 John 5:13 I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know YOU HAVE eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9>8 God SAVED you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Of note is that in all these verses salvation, or being saved, is described either as an event that has already occurred, or that occurs as a one-time thing, and something that someone who believes in Jesus ACTUALLY already has while they are alive.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Now aren't you glad we got this all cleared up Wildtimes? The Lord did say he would blot whoever sins against him out of the book of life, so obviously the universalist creed of universal reconciliation goes pft! Out the window.

Got it "cleared up"? I know your story, lonewolf. Remember? Your worldview sounds like a "living hell" to me.

And I'm NOT an atheist. Neither am I a doomporn born-again Fundie who believes in your "tyrant God." He's, frankly, a jerk. Mine is neither a "he", NOR a "jerk", and certainly NOT a "tyrant."

But I don't expect you to get that. Not in this lifetime, anyway.