Catholic Hatred. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2)

I have a question that, hopefully, will receive an answer!

In Catholic doctrine, does it allow for someone who is not Catholic to go to Heaven?

and... (I guess I have more!)

In Catholicism, what is used to determine that these things like Heaven, hell, and Purgatory *explicitly* happen to only our eternal spirit, and do not include our physical body? Is there allowance for one to shed their sins before death?

One of the main tenets of hell seems to be focused on pain and suffering. How is this realized by an individual without a body, and therefore, without a means to feel anything physical? Suffering is seen by many as a choice of perspective on our life experience, could someone choose the same thing in hell?

reply to post by Serdgiam

In Catholic doctrine, does it allow for someone who is not Catholic to go to Heaven?

Hi, Serdg;
the new pope (Pope Francis) has said that yes, even atheists can go to heaven.

Some conservatives are up in arms about that, but it's what he said.

reply to post by wildtimes


In my typical fashion, it was an opening question to a topic with more questions

I think the answers I would have received prior to the Pope making that proclamation would be quite different than the ones received now, which is one of the reasons I asked.

I figure it just uses the same procedure as everyone else; they go to purgatory before a final judgment. Still thought it would be interesting to hear the answers.

reply to post by Serdgiam

I think the answers I would have received prior to the Pope making that proclamation would be quite different than the ones received now, which is one of the reasons I asked.

Oh yes, I'm sure they would have been different.
But - he's the guy in charge, and he says it's okay to be an atheist, one can still get to heaven. Of course, that doesn't mean his "flock" will agree.

Serdgiam
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

You should get your pastor to sign up on ATS

I will tell him you said that. He will get a chuckle. I told him that I was asking these questions posed in an online discussion group. I also told him, I would likely be having more to come and he said: "Good."

reply to post by wildtimes

Of course, that doesn't mean his "flock" will agree.

Oh, I think they are delighted to hear this. Many have friends and family they have been praying for, so it is a big relief. I have heard one Protestant blow a gasket over this, though.

We Catholics need to read the Catechism.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Please be sure to mention I am quite sincere in my request.

I want to explore my walk with God with others, and explore how others might have approached the same stumbling blocks that I did.

I wish to do this without any attempts at conversion, just two people walking with God.. sharing and perhaps learning from each others journey. At worst, it will allow the participants to see how great God is in the ways that he can work.

Please be sure to mention I am quite sincere in my request.

reply to post by Serdgiam


I told him I felt you were sincere before I posed your question to him.

He knows.

reply to post by Serdgiam

I want to explore my walk with God with others, and explore how others might have approached the same stumbling blocks that I did. I wish to do this without any attempts at conversion, just two people walking with God.. sharing and perhaps learning from each others journey. At worst, it will allow the participants to see how great God is in the ways that he can work.

I think that is awesome and will enjoy the journey with you.

reply to post by Serdgiam

Dear Serdgiam,

I'm pleased that you and sad_eyed_lady are getting along so well. I'm almost reluctant to jump in. (Notice that I said "almost.")

In Catholic doctrine, does it allow for someone who is not Catholic to go to Heaven?

Yes, and you don't have to be Christian, either. But your question has in it a point which is often brushed over. That is the word "allow."

Consider the Atheist who spends his adult life saying "There is no God, and if there is one as described in the Bible, I would hate Him and not worship Him." After the Atheist's death, suppose God says "You are allowed to come to Heaven." Won't the Atheist respond with "I hate You, and never want to see or hear of You, I'm not going anywhere near Your "Heaven?"

God then says, "OK, your wish is my command," and that Atheist spends eternity completely separated from the Beatific Vision.

Anyone who says "God and heaven is less important to me than X (whatever X is)," runs the very real risk of getting X, but not God. "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?"

In Catholicism, what is used to determine that these things like Heaven, hell, and Purgatory *explicitly* happen to only our eternal spirit, and do not include our physical body?

We are in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory after death. There is suffering and joy on Earth, but those are only hints of what eternity might be like. To be honest, I'm not clear about your question.

Is there allowance for one to shed their sins before death?

Yes, Confession. Sometimes known as Reconciliation.

One of the main tenets of hell seems to be focused on pain and suffering. How is this realized by an individual without a body, and therefore, without a means to feel anything physical?

Except for two or three occasions, my greatest suffering has been when there was nothing wrong with my body.

Suffering is seen by many as a choice of perspective on our life experience, could someone choose the same thing in hell?

My understanding is that if you find yourself in Hell, you've already made your choices. Making Hell pleasant by considering it in a different light is not on the menu.

I'm sorry that I have only the smallest of drips with which to try to fill your great abyss of curiosity. But, unless you object, I'll keep dripping away.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

May I suggest a small change to your most recent post? You write:

But - he's the guy in charge, and he says it's okay to be an atheist, one can still get to heaven. Of course, that doesn't mean his "flock" will agree.

That's quite a bit like saying "It's okay to have a massive coronary, one can still survive."

He's not endorsing Atheism, but simply saying that under certain conditions an Atheist can go to Heaven. That's not a new teaching with him.

With respect,
Charles1952

Serdgiam
I have a question that, hopefully, will receive an answer!

In Catholic doctrine, does it allow for someone who is not Catholic to go to Heaven?

and... (I guess I have more!)

In Catholicism, what is used to determine that these things like Heaven, hell, and Purgatory *explicitly* happen to only our eternal spirit, and do not include our physical body? Is there allowance for one to shed their sins before death?

One of the main tenets of hell seems to be focused on pain and suffering. How is this realized by an individual without a body, and therefore, without a means to feel anything physical? Suffering is seen by many as a choice of perspective on our life experience, could someone choose the same thing in hell?

Very good questions.


As a priest got ex-communicated for saying that non-Catholics could not to go Heaven. I hope that answers your first question.

One former asst. pastor who taught at a Monastery said that at the moment we feel sorrow in our heart for what we have done wrong God forgives us. So that covers everybody.

Discussion on Catholic theology of absolution and the Sacrament is Confession is more than I have time for as are the other great questions you pose. Household chores have to get done once in a blue moon. Guests and houseguests incoming.

I would suggest you explore the teaching of the Church in the Catechism. A link to it is provided below. I promise to do the same with your inquiries as time permits, but I won't be having a great deal of time to be posting until after the 2nd week of January. Hopefully, some other ATS defenders of the faith will help explore these topics with you.

Glad to help you understand anything in it, especially with the help of my Pastor if need be.

The Entire Catechism The Catholic Church

Use the index at the top and search with keywords of your choice, for example "H" to get information on Hell.

None of us here are trained in canon law (to the best of my knowledge). Would love to see questions/discussions based on disputes with the actual teaching of the Church.

As a side note: What my pastor said that his professor told him: "You have to try pretty hard to get Hell" was something he learned many years ago. He came to our parish in 2006 and had studied Canon Law prior to that.

reply to post by Serdgiam


**Warning - I'm not a theologian by any stretch and my understanding of this is a bit hazy**

Just to follow up on what other folks have already said, it is a very fine point and it gets complicated, but the belief boils down to the idea that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and is the earthly expression of being in communion with the Lord. People can be a part of that and therefor part of the Catholic Church without recognizing it. So, people in remote parts of the world who have never heard the gospel might still be saved if they live in accordance to the part of their consciousness that recognizes God's will.

Reconciliation with the Lord can happen in an instant and that can preclude what are normally considered prerequisites, such as the sacraments.

As an aside, when discussing atheists, the Pope specifically stated that they would have to ask God for forgiveness, which would make them no longer an atheist.

If this is confusing to you, know that you aren't alone. It confuses the heck out of me as well.


Eric

charles1952
Anyone who says "God and heaven is less important to me than X (whatever X is)," runs the very real risk of getting X, but not God. "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?"

What does Catholicism state are the requirements for entry into Heaven? I am aware of the teaching that that which is unholy can not stand in the presence of God, but what exactly does that mean to Catholicism?

We are in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory after death. There is suffering and joy on Earth, but those are only hints of what eternity might be like. To be honest, I'm not clear about your question.

Perhaps it is in my wording! Most theologies include punishment/reward type systems, but not all are explicit about whether this is during life, only "truly" after death, or a mixture of both. Christians, in general, feel that it is only fully realized after physical death. However, when it comes to exploring this facet specifically, there seems to be conflicting opinions on the actual doctrine or scriptures that state this in an explicit way. So, the overall concept is there, but Id like to learn more about the foundation of that concept.

Yes, Confession. Sometimes known as Reconciliation.

Can someone who has never confessed shed their sins? The way I understand it, this behavior is generally based in not only realizing sinful behavior, but more importantly, walking in a different direction (or changing the behavior from that point out). So, if someone repents in this way directly to God is that perceived as different than the official process of Confession?

Except for two or three occasions, my greatest suffering has been when there was nothing wrong with my body.

My understanding is that if you find yourself in Hell, you've already made your choices. Making Hell pleasant by considering it in a different light is not on the menu.

Ahh, interesting. So, does that imply that free will is removed upon entrance to hell? What do Catholics believe the actual experience of hell is like? I know there are anecdotal stories, but is there an officially recognized explanation?

But, unless you object, I'll keep dripping away.

We all have a lot to learn and a lot to teach each other. Only way to do that is drip freely.

How much does Catholicism focus on the individuals journey with God?

sad_eyed_lady
As a side note: What my pastor said that his professor told him: "You have to try pretty hard to get Hell" was something he learned many years ago. He came to our parish in 2006 and had studied Canon Law prior to that.

I am going to look into that right now, thanks for posting the link again (I think you did it before).

The way I look at "You have to try pretty hard to get Hell" is that getting into heaven is extraordinarily simple, but its easy to get distracted by shiny things.

Have you had an experience which shifted your "belief in God" into knowing He is real?

EricD
People can be a part of that and therefor part of the Catholic Church without recognizing it. So, people in remote parts of the world who have never heard the gospel might still be saved if they live in accordance to the part of their consciousness that recognizes God's will.

I wanted to single this part out. How does the paradigm change once someone does have knowledge of the Catholic Church? Is it possible for someone to spread the word of God without using the structure of Catholicism?

As an aside, when discussing atheists, the Pope specifically stated that they would have to ask God for forgiveness, which would make them no longer an atheist.

At that point of judgment after death, one is faced with either acceptance or rejection. There is no belief/non belief involved at that point!

Have you had an experience which shifted your "belief in God" into knowing He is real?

reply to post by Serdgiam



This is going to be a not so typical answer.

I think I never doubted that God was real. I think is was hard-wired into my makeup. My belief was reality to me. If I had to say where did I find my proof God was real. Perhaps, I could say that when the devil made his presence known is where that began.

Shortly after the birth of my first son I woke up with soot (ashes) on my face. I didn't freak out, but I knew that wasn't a good sign. Same morning my Mom walked in the room and I saw ashes on her face I asked her where they came from she looked in the mirror and said: "I don't know." Also, not a good sign. There were no smokers in the house, btw. From then on out I have felt a sense of evilness surrounding me. Long story short. I had poltergeist actiivity in my house in 2010 and somewhere on this thread I made a post of how I met Devil Nod (as I call him.)

So your question brings to mind a sharing exercise the Priest asked us to do one Sunday. That was turn to the person next to you and tell them what makes you believe God is real. My son was sitting next to me and said "rainbows" and I said "devil." He asked me why I said that. My answer was once you meet the devil you know God is real.

He hasn't left, but I have the Holy Spirit as my constant companion so I keep on truckin'. I don't imagine I will ever be free of Nod in this life, but I have no fear, never did. He threw his best ace and blew it in 2010.

I have had many blessings and even Devil Nod has been a blessing as I know what I am up against and sad that other people have no idea that evil is real and fighting for their soul.

Strange testimony to say the least

Reply to Serdgiam

Is it possible for someone to spread the word of God without using the structure of Catholicism?

The origin of the word "Catholic" is:

from Greek katholikos universal, general, from katholou in general, from kata by + holos whole — more at cata-
www.merriam-webster.com...

We are one body in Christ.

Protestants and Eastern Orthodox churches share the Good News without the structure of the Roman Catholic Church.

As an aside, when discussing atheists, the Pope specifically stated that they would have to ask God for forgiveness, which would make them no longer an atheist. At that point of judgment after death, one is faced with either acceptance or rejection. There is no belief/non belief involved at that point!

There are no atheists in Hell. They met God at their judgement.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

www.vatican.va...

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

www.vatican.va...

reply to post by Serdgiam

What does Catholicism state are the requirements for entry into Heaven?

I am going to assume you have little knowledge of Christianity. Not as any kind of insult, but I would hate to miss the basic teachings that Jesus spoke in the Semon on the Mount which Catholics refer to as the Beatitudes.

This may be taking the long way home, but you can't get from A to Z without knowing what is in-between.I don't know what you know and what you don't know. This should help you begin to grasp Catholicism.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.

Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

They are explained in more detail at the link:
Catholic Encyclopedia


To tell you that we are called to know, love and serve God might not be a bad idea on helping you begin to understand our faith.

Christians must embrace the tenants of the faith in the Apostles Creed.

Seek and ye shall find.

Here is the link to the Catechism again:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Bookmark if you wish. You might find that you don't need to ask us. Explore it. Look at the things you are interested in understanding. I can't post the whole thing on ATS to teach you every article of the faith,

I am at a lost to help you as your question won't fit in a nutshell.

Perhaps other ATS members can bring more to the table here.

Edited to add here is a good book what will help. It is online.

PRAYER THE KEY TO SALVATION

reply to post by Serdgiam

Dear Serdgiam,

What does Catholicism state are the requirements for entry into Heaven? I am aware of the teaching that that which is unholy can not stand in the presence of God, but what exactly does that mean to Catholicism?

Do you mean, if you meet these requirements you are sure to be in Heaven? As far as externals go, I don't think there are any. Even if we're talking about internals, the Church recognizes that the final judgement is God's. When the Church declares that someone is a Saint, they are only recognizing the fact that the person is in Heaven.

Most theologies include punishment/reward type systems, but not all are explicit about whether this is during life, only "truly" after death, or a mixture of both. Christians, in general, feel that it is only fully realized after physical death.

We have seen too many people sin with gay abandon, then have all the gifts the world has to offer, to believe that Hell (or God's punishment) has to occur on Earth. Similarly, there are very holy people who suffer through poverty, disease, even martyrdom, to believe that there will be worldly rewards.

I'm too lazy to look up the verse, but it is something like: As the world hated Me, so shall it hate you more. And only one of the original twelve had a natural death. So if our rewards aren't necessarily on Earth, and you believe God is just, then Hell (or something like our notions of it) looks pretty reasonable.

Can someone who has never confessed shed their sins? The way I understand it, this behavior is generally based in not only realizing sinful behavior, but more importantly, walking in a different direction (or changing the behavior from that point out). So, if someone repents in this way directly to God is that perceived as different than the official process of Confession?

Yes, it is different from the official process. If one is a Catholic, this is what is asked of you. The Church holds that it is the one certain way of having sins absolved. Are there other ways? Nothing routine, that I know of. (unless you're talking about venial sins, which are best thought of as minor league sins.)

But remember, there are conditions that have to be fulfilled before an act is considered a sin, no matter how it looks to the outside world.

Ahh, interesting. So, does that imply that free will is removed upon entrance to hell?

that's only important if you're asking if the condemned can decide they don't like Hell and want to be someplace else. I'm too lazy to look this one up, as well. Lewis wrote The Great Divorce to advance the idea that it was possible, but that most in Hell prefer to be as far away from God as possible, so they stay there. In my opinion, it would be beyond insane to govern one's life based on that possibility.

What do Catholics believe the actual experience of hell is like? I know there are anecdotal stories, but is there an officially recognized explanation?

Complete, eternal separation from God. Remember that God is love, beauty, truth, justice, mercy, joy, and peace, then consider His total absence forever.

How much does Catholicism focus on the individuals journey with God?

Sorry. What do you mean by "journey with God?" All of us are constantly journeying with God. He's told us that some roads lead to Him and some lead away. Do we love and follow our Guide?

Besides, how am I to measure "how much?" Can I get away with saying "lots?" Maybe "totally" is the better answer.

But as another poster has suggested, their are more authoritative sources of information about the Church than my poor scribblings. Why not go there?

Would you care, at some time, to let us know what you have gathered so far? What your impressions and opinions are? Does all of this sound true, false? I have no intention of sounding blunt, yet at the same time, Catholicism is such a deep subject that I can see myself responding to questions until my fingers fall off, without getting into a "give and take" discussion.

But I will take any path that satisfies your honest need.

With respect,
Charles1952