Did Abraham ever really exist?

reply to post by racasan


apparently there were. Also the Hebrew calendar begins with the CREATION OF ADAM. Not with the Creation of The World. The Talmud also relates that the World was created and destroyed many times.

adjensen
that has nothing to do with the age of the planet.

Genesis says Adam was the first human and he was made by God on the 6th day.
Of course, Adam and Eve are a creation myth and never really existed.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I'm not here to participate in this thread. Just wanted to
comment on how utterly ridiculous all these," da did he
rewy exthist ?" threads are. And that they are.
In four thousand years it will be easy to show OP didn't
exist either.

FlyersFan

adjensen
. On the other, if Christ referred to him in a concrete manner ("Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58 NIV) then either he was lying or not all-knowing, both indications that Jesus was not God.

So we've got these choices ...
- Whoever wrote the bible and quoted Jesus got it wrong.
- Jesus Himself got it wrong, which means He isn't God as He claimed.
- Jesus got it right that Abraham actually existed, and Jesus God-head isn't in question.
- Jesus insinuated something that wasn't true, that Abraham existed, to make a point on a level that the Jews could understand.

The problem with the first and last options is that Jesus referred to Abraham on a number of occasions, so he most likely did cite some person named Abraham whom Jesus existed before and who was in Sheol in the company of the righteous.

The problem with just arbitrarily dismissing parts of the Hebrew Bible as being complete fabrications is that there is a ripple effect that eventually destroys the New Testament -- if one concludes that Moses was a fictional character, for example, who did Peter, James and John see with Christ at the Transfiguration? Were they lying about the experience? Did Christ lie to them and say it was Moses when he knew that Moses never existed?

For that reason, I take the perspective that, while the Old Testament, as a whole, isn't meant to be taken literally, parts of it can, and it does reflect the real persons and history of the Israelites, in some fashion.

Revolution9
He never sacrificed Isaac.

Not for lack of trying. He was all set to ... but then the 'voices' stopped him.

People forget that ALL people of the world were sacrificing their children to Baal like gods and goddesses like Diana.

Yes, but supposedly the God of Abraham was the 'true God' and wouldn't do such a thing.
And yet ... this God supposedly tells Abraham to commit murder.

adjensen
The problem with just arbitrarily dismissing parts of the Hebrew Bible as being complete fabrications is that there is a ripple effect that eventually destroys the New Testament --

If the truth leads in that direction ... then it leads in that direction. Wouldn't you rather know the truth of something? Even if that truth leads you to discover your religious views are based on something that didn't happen? I'd want to know the truth ... rather than base my lifes beliefs on lies.

reply to post by adjensen


Jesus refers to Jonah too. Do you really think that a man lived inside the belly of a big fish for 3 days?

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Jesus refers to Jonah too. Do you really think that a man lived inside the belly of a big fish for 3 days?

What's so hard to believe about that? We are talk'in God stuff here right ?

FlyersFan

adjensen
The problem with just arbitrarily dismissing parts of the Hebrew Bible as being complete fabrications is that there is a ripple effect that eventually destroys the New Testament --

If the truth leads in that direction ... then it leads in that direction. Wouldn't you rather know the truth of something? Even if that truth leads you to discover your religious views are based on something that didn't happen? I'd want to know the truth ... rather than base my lifes beliefs on lies.

The truth of whether someone named Abraham existed? I don't believe that is demonstrable, either way -- as Randy pointed out, in 4,000 years no one will be able to prove that you or I existed, and yet here we are.

If Jesus is God, then, yes, I have faith that Abraham and Moses (and Jonah, windword ,) existed, whether all of the facts are what they are portrayed to be in the Hebrew Bible or not.

windword
Jesus refers to Jonah too. Do you really think that a man lived inside the belly of a big fish for 3 days?

Jesus referred to Jonah (not the person but 'the sign of Jonah'), Noah (not Noah himself but Jesus said 'In Noah's Day ...' ) , Abraham, the Prophet Daniel, and Moses.

Also this ... Luke 24:27 "then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.:

reply to post by adjensen

Okay .... it's all good .... I"m not going to argue with your thoughts on this.

I"m just not seeing how there is any evidence that Abraham existed.
He supposedly existed 2000 BC. But the story wasn't written down until
1500 years later. That's a lot of time to go by before getting the story down.
A lot can change. A lot can get wrong. A lot can be embellished on.

The strongest evidence that Abraham existed is Jesus words.
So a person has to believe that Jesus can't be wrong, and has to believe that
scripture can't get it wrong, in order to use Jesus as a source.

reply to post by randyvs

What's so hard to believe about that? We are talk'in God stuff here right ?

I thought we were talking about historical truth and biblical mythology.

reply to post by randyvs

I thought you weren't here to participate in the thread.
Couldn't help yourself ?? Just had to, eh??

There is a severe lack of evidence that Abraham existed.
The Abraham story wasn't written down until 1500 years later.
Three major world religions have Abraham as their 'father in religion'.

I find it odd that so much is based on a story that can't be proven ...
and that much of it can be disproven.

reply to post by adjensen

The problem with just arbitrarily dismissing parts of the Hebrew Bible as being complete fabrications is that there is a ripple effect that eventually destroys the New Testament -- if one concludes that Moses was a fictional character, for example, who did Peter, James and John see with Christ at the Transfiguration? Were they lying about the experience? Did Christ lie to them and say it was Moses when he knew that Moses never existed?

[snipped]

Jesus and the writers of the New Testament have referred to all of these Old Testament figures in a positive way.

A Christian cant have a problem with Moses.
Who showed up at Jesus' transfiguration?

A Christian cant have a problem with Abraham.
Who dd Jesus say rejoiced to see his day"?

A Christian cant dismiss Noah was a myth.
Who was Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:37?

A Christian cant dismiss Melchizedek was a myth.
In who's order was Jesus identified as a priest?

reply to post by adjensen


If Jesus was God, one would think that he might had emphasized the importance of washing ones hands, after laying hands on the sick, rather than arguing the matter with the Pharisees. How many illnesses were spread by Christians just because they didn't know about germs and hygiene?

sk0rpi0n
The OP, with her own personalized version of Christianity,

... irrelevant and off topic. Address the issues raised.

but has also insulted Moses and Abraham.

You can't insult someone who didn't exist.
And telling the truth isn't insulting. It's just telling the truth.

Large parts of the Abraham story can be disproven.
For example ... Abraham couldn't take his troops to Dan .. Dan didn't exist.

Stating that truth doesn't insult Abraham ... It just stating the truth.
What is insulting is expecting people to blindly buy into a load of crap simply because YOU buy it.

She not only dismisses Adam, Noah and Melchizedek as "myths inserted into the Bible"

They ARE myths inserted into the bible. Proven myths. Their origins are well known.
Taken from the Summerians and 'freely adapted' by the Jews. Fact is fact.


Address the topic .... and I'm not it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Of course a Christian can do that, Christ's message is basically treat people how you want to be treated...a Christian doesn't have to believe all the nonsense in the bible...because there is a lot of it.
FF is right to question If Ab existed considering as she has stated he was written about 1500 years after he supposedly died.
Plus Ab to me was a mentally unwell person to me hearing voices to kill your child...that would get you sectioned nowadays and rightly so.
Great read flyers.

reply to post by FlyersFan


well 4 if you now include Brahma.... which I'm definitely going to look into, it's too juicy not too!

reply to post by FlyersFan

You can't insult someone who didn't exist.

Then you cant claim to follow a "god" (Jesus) who spoke of that someone who - according to you, didn't exist.

FlyersFan

Large parts of the Abraham story can be disproven.
For example ... Abraham couldn't take his troops to Dan .. Dan didn't exist.

Imagine I'm telling a someone a story today and I say "the Indians lived in New York before they were butchered by white men"

Now, you'd be right in saying, "hang on, New York didn't exist back then" - but I'd reply that I only said 'New York' so that the person I was telling the story to had a reference point for the story, regardless of what the Indians called that place during their time there.

Isn't this feasible with too with the area know as Dan during the documentation?