Did Abraham ever really exist?

ISLAMIC STORIES ON ABRAHAM EASILY DISPROVEN and CONTRADICTED

- Qu'ran describes trade routes and caravans with camels in Abrahams time.
THESE DID NOT EXIST THEN Obviously a concoction by Qu'ran writers of 700 AD.

- Muhammad said the Kaaba was built 998 BC by Abraham.
ABRAHAM DID NOT EXIST THEN . He was around the year 2000 BC

- Islam claims Abraham is a descendant of Noah through Shem.
NOAHS ARK IS A FABLE 'borrowed' from the Summerians.

- Islam claims Abrahams father was Azar
CONTRADICTS scripture stating the father was Terah

- Islam claims Abraham was surprised by the sun, moon and stars setting
So he had never seen them before? Really?

- Islam Errors in Abrahams descendants list
- Islam claims Abraham had two sons. The bible says Abraham had eight.
- The Quran says some of Abraham's descendants lived in the valley of Mecca, the bible says Hebron.
- The Quran says that Abraham had two wives, in the Bible he had three.

Answering Abraham in Islam - Videos Available

Contrary to Genesis, Philistines didn't exist in the time of Abraham, neither were camels domesticated when he lived and the trade routes and caravans with camels described don't match anything close to 1800BC, they match Arabian trade resembling the 7th century. Not to mention Abrahamic biblical migration route was not being in place at the time of Abraham, it is therefore unlikely the authors were contemporaries or knew what they were talking about.

Israel itself never started from outside Canaan, not by Abraham, nor a mass immigration of liberated slaves, rather Israel is clearly shown to have risen and appeared in an economic crisis, where Nomads have appeared to have been forced by circumstance to settle down due to the chaos inflicted by anarchy and corrupted cities and trade routes. The region in which they settled appears to have within 30 years grow from about 20 settlements to about 250 or more settlements.

reply to post by adjensen

This is a dangerous leap in logic, I think.

Hiya, adj!

How is it "dangerous"?

Lone12
...and you do nót see ány connection here........?

yes ... I do. We touched on it on page one
(I think it was page one).

First came the Summerians (4000BC), then up through the Vedics and Zoroastrians,
and then the Jews, to the Christians, and last the Muslims.

It's like a game of 'telephone' that children play.

What the Summerians believed got dragged up through the different belief systems.
Through the Vedics ... through the Zoroastrians .. through the Jews ... etc ....

reply to post by dashen

Moses wrote the 5 Books on the day the Hebrews were set to cross the Jordan River.

Really? All FIVE? How do you know this, please?

Writing ONE book can take days; writing FIVE on the day they were set to cross a River - for the leader of the group - would be irresponsible leadership for one thing, and HIGHLY UNLIKELY for another. Didn't he have more important immediate plans to deal with?

Sorry, not buying that.

dashen
Well your very offensive quote WOULD be correct except that it is not just some scifi mystery novel, It also makes the PREPOSTEROUS claim that about 2 MILLION PEOPLE, Men, Women, And Children all beheld the miracles of Sinai, and lived in the desert for 40 years. And they all managed to stick with that story?

1 - You shouldn't be so offended when people have factual information that runs counter to your religion. Facts are facts.

2 - There is NO EVIDENCE that Jews were slaves in Egypt; that they 'escaped; that they lived in the desert for any amount of time, let alone 40 years; and there is no evidence of even a few hundred people let alone 2 million people living in a desert.

There is no archeological evidence to support any of that. None of it. Not even a single shard of a pot in the desert ... not a single mention of it in any Egyptian history records (and they DID keep records). Nada ... Nothing.

windword

Paul mentions Adam and Eve, but they were't real.

got a source for that?

FlyersFan

adjensen
Is there evidence that the Ten Commandments existed, in some form, prior to Moses? Well, sort of -- earlier cultures had similar laws, though none are exactly the same.

Egyptian Book of the Dead is written.
The Code of Ur-Nammu (Summerian)
The Code of Hammurabi
10 Commandments

Not 'sort of'.

That isn't what I said -- I said that previous cultures had similar, but not identical, laws. You cannot cross-reference the Code of Hammurabi and account for the existence of all its laws in the Ten Commandments, or account for the existence of all Ten Commandments in the Code of Hammurabi.

Again, I'm not saying that there is proof that God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, I'm saying that there is no evidence, whatsoever, that he just stole them from another culture, so that conclusion is an opinion, not a fact, and while it might be true, one cannot represent it as being conclusively true.

reply to post by dashen

Well your very offensive quote WOULD be correct except that it is not just some scifi mystery novel,

I didn't find that quote offensive in the least, and how do you KNOW that the Bible is NOT just "some scifi mystery novel"?

Tales are told through the generations - with each recitation they are prone to embellishment, change, flourishes, add-ins and take-outs ...

like a public speaker who is constantly "developing" his story, presentation, etc.

I don't think you are seeing things clearly. My opinion only.

Could you answer my earlier question? How, if you found out you were the ONLY ONE who believed the Bible is true and literal, would you cope with it?

wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

This is a dangerous leap in logic, I think.

Hiya, adj!

How is it "dangerous"?

Because it presents an opinion as fact, which is always a dangerous approach to the truth, in my opinion.

FlyersFan
The Islamic stories of Abraham were clearly made up with notions from ~ 700 AD .. not facts that come from 2000 BC. The stories don't match what was really going on way back in 2000 BC.

But Mohammed (PBUH) was around in 570 AD and the Kaaba was supposedly built 2500 years before it by Abaraham and his son.....

How could Mohammed (PBUH) have believed this if Abraham's existence wasn't made up for another 200 years?

adjensen

wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

This is a dangerous leap in logic, I think.

Hiya, adj!

How is it "dangerous"?

Because it presents an opinion as fact, which is always a dangerous approach to the truth, in my opinion.

And religion presents itself as truth when it is also opinion.

reply to post by adjensen

Because it presents an opinion as fact, which is always a dangerous approach to the truth, in my opinion.

Fair enough. However, we can only have 'opinions' of things that are not proven. Therefore, the Bible is subject to 'opinionated' criticism. I'm more interested in probability, reasonable critical thought, and an open-minded approach to whether or not the Bible is a legitimate, factual history.

I don't think it is.

Hug Oscar for me!

adjensen
That isn't what I said --

Sorry .. I guess I"m not following you ...

I'm saying that there is no evidence, whatsoever, that he just stole them from another culture,

They were a part of HIS culture in Egypt. The rules were all there. He was well educated in them. They had been available and active for hundreds and hundreds of years. He didn't grab them from the other side of the planet.

Which is more likely ...

- Moses, being a well educated prince of Egypt, took the laws that had been part of Egypt and civilized society for hundreds and hundreds of years and used them to run the group he was in charge of ...

or ...

- God appeared on a mountaintop and carved the laws into rocks ... laws that Moses already knew and practiced in Egypt.

dashen

winnar

adjensen

Is there evidence that God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on a mountaintop? Well, sort of -- the Bible indicates that he did, and, literal or not, it's still documentary evidence.

No this is not any kind of evidence and is the equivalent of calling Harry Potter books documentary evidence of witches.

Well your very offensive quote WOULD be correct except that it is not just some scifi mystery novel,

Much evidence exists that it is actually a sci-fi novel and none that it is "documentary".

It also makes the PREPOSTEROUS claim that about 2 MILLION PEOPLE, Men, Women, And Children all beheld the miracles of Sinai, and lived in the desert for 40 years. And they all managed to stick with that story?

The preposterous claim is that you take a work of fiction as fact with literally ZERO evidence.

FlyersFan

Lone12
...and you do nót see ány connection here........?

yes ... I do. We touched on it on page one
(I think it was page one).

First came the Summerians (4000BC), then up through the Vedics and Zoroastrians,
and then the Jews, to the Christians, and last the Muslims.

It's like a game of 'telephone' that children play.

What the Summerians believed got dragged up through the different belief systems.
Through the Vedics ... through the Zoroastrians .. through the Jews ... etc ....

- in LINEAR time, yes, the sequence was like that.

But that is soooo Irrelevant.

what does that prove ?

- Absolutely Nothing.

problem here is,
you dont understand the different Masks of Evil.

- and neither, how the whole of old-israel/christianity, was ment to UNDO all those masks of evil.

You dont get the notion of Undoing.

"Undoing" impliés already, that "some similar events happened - before"

..otherwise you cant "Undo" them.

FlyersFan

dashen
Well your very offensive quote WOULD be correct except that it is not just some scifi mystery novel, It also makes the PREPOSTEROUS claim that about 2 MILLION PEOPLE, Men, Women, And Children all beheld the miracles of Sinai, and lived in the desert for 40 years. And they all managed to stick with that story?

1 - You shouldn't be so offended when people have factual information that runs counter to your religion. Facts are facts.

2 - There is NO EVIDENCE that Jews were slaves in Egypt; that they 'escaped; that they lived in the desert for any amount of time, let alone 40 years; and there is no evidence of even a few hundred people let alone 2 million people living in a desert.

There is no archeological evidence to support any of that. None of it. Not even a single shard of a pot in the desert ... not a single mention of it in any Egyptian history records (and they DID keep records). Nada ... Nothing.

1 Yes, Facts are facts. The Jews claims and sources are contemporary to the sources and events. Your claims use dubious archeological records using translations of thousand years old dead languages.

2 Yes the Egyptians certainly did keep records. Ipewer Papyrus


3 The Fact that there are jews in the first place who say my grandparents till time immemorial were charged to tell the world of what happened that day, and every day is evidence

..the notion,
that "Horus was crucified , had 12 disciples, etc",
or that "Osiris was the shepherd",

tells *nothing* about the presumed Invalidity of the Lord -

since Evel *stole* those Attributes - ahead of Time.

man,
dont you knów that the spiritual world is 10 steps ahéad of us ???

- yet yóu go try "prove" things in linear time..?

Not to mention calling my post offensive just shows that your belief is fixed and inflexible. This isnt because "God" its because of your "I"...ego. It only offense was challenging your beliefs.

There was no evidence presented that the bible is documentary in the nature described about Abraham and there likely never will be.

wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

Because it presents an opinion as fact, which is always a dangerous approach to the truth, in my opinion.

Fair enough. However, we can only have 'opinions' of things that are not proven. Therefore, the Bible is subject to 'opinionated' criticism. I'm more interested in probability, reasonable critical thought, and an open-minded approach to whether or not the Bible is a legitimate, factual history.

No, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion, of course. But when one makes the leap from "here is my opinion" to "here is the truth", they might be right, but there is no assurance that they are.

Hug Oscar for me!

He needs it -- this morning he went to the groomers, his least favourite day of the month, five hours separated from Dad. It's the worst thing ever, lol.

reply to post by Beavers

I think those time periods are a bit messed up.

Abraham was from 2000 BC.
Muhammad said the Kaaba was built 1000BC (by Abraham ... which is impossible)
The stories of Abraham weren't written down until 500 BC
The stories about Abraham had been around for 1500 years before being written down.