Sinkholes, are we missing something?

luxordelphi
reply to post by Silverlok

 

The advanced materials, in play within the infrastructure since approx. the late 1990's, without naming the rose, are new cements for roads and water mains, materials for switches and ties for railroads, bars and bolts for bridges, etc. Not actually as cryptic as it sounds because the materials are in constant flux - a dynamic process to fine-tune and make better.

The materials are not able to readily absorb heat but have a lot of surface area where heat can collect, unable to dissipate. Biological agents have also been used in the mix. Some materials simply become brittle and crumble while still looking pristine on the surface. Water, for some, within the atomic structure, is the enemy and can cause unseen degradation.

The ingredients you describe are actually all, already present within the materials themselves. Incidence is throughout the country (countries) with (this is not anywhere near conclusive) seemingly less problem in arid climates and more in humidity.

radiation works on the order of the square, thermal retention/generation works on the order of the cube

now apply that concept to...any part of your assertion

reply to post by Silverlok


In the case of certain dark colored particles smaller than a wavelength of light, heat collects at the surface. So there's some difficulty with your Jack Handy thought:

radiation works on the order of the square, thermal retention/generation works on the order of the cube

In humidity, even more heat can collect because the area seals in the heat with a bubble of steam. We might use this to extrapolate what oil, not uncommon on a roadway, might do.

now apply that concept to...any part of your assertion

Less than a watt, in some circumstances, can create a couple hundred degrees.

Winter and frozen ground also become irrelevant.

luxordelphi
reply to post by Silverlok

 

In the case of certain dark colored particles smaller than a wavelength of light, heat collects at the surface. So there's some difficulty with your Jack Handy thought:

radiation works on the order of the square, thermal retention/generation works on the order of the cube

In humidity, even more heat can collect because the area seals in the heat with a bubble of steam. We might use this to extrapolate what oil, not uncommon on a roadway, might do.

now apply that concept to...any part of your assertion

Less than a watt, in some circumstances, can create a couple hundred degrees.

Winter and frozen ground also become irrelevant.

jack handy

...heheehe...

that was really hilarious

graphene is a material that exemplifies a connection between the photo-electric , thermal transfer ( kinetics) and the surface area to volume relationship regarding MACRO SCALE EVENTS being defined by micro scale structures.

Although I seriously doubt the VERY macro scale chemistry I am proposing is going to be effected in the earths crust by any ( unnamed theoretical ) atomic ( apparently bucky balls or other wise extremely colloidal ) elements that exist naturally in the environment at sizes below the wavelengths of light ....

Now in consideration , if such things ( atomic colloids ) occur naturally , then they would be EXTREMELY reactive under the correct thermal and chemical conditions ...is that what you are proposing?

reply to post by Silverlok


It's not really colloids or micro systems that I mean. Colloids in gel or foam, I guess, are considered solid in solid but I'm talking more solid than that. Micro is pretty small but I'm talking smaller.

In attempting to continue this dialogue with you, I ran across geosynthetic soil reinforcement using advanced materials wherein the reinforced soil then behaves like a composite. This behavior seems to have come as somewhat of a surprise. Found a comprehensive conference that took place last year on these systems and the bulk of presentation was research on failure mechanisms. So I think I've found what I was looking for sparked by your intriguing thread.

The thing that interested me originally was a sinkhole in a fairly newly repaired roadway using advanced materials for the repair. Drilling, fracking, mining and underground building, except for a water main (also newly repaired) didn't seem to play a part. This geosynthetic soil reinforcement would also be used in order to be able to build in areas that wouldn't otherwise support building. So there again, composite failures could be responsible for some sinkholes.

Ancient sinkholes and I guess even some calderas might come under your mechanisms. That is, of course, if we don't presuppose cyclical civilizations with similar patterns and ends and, therefore, ancient composite failures due to ancient geosynthetic soil reinforcement efforts using then advanced but now outdated materials.

luxordelphi
reply to post by Silverlok

 

It's not really colloids or micro systems that I mean. Colloids in gel or foam, I guess, are considered solid in solid but I'm talking more solid than that. Micro is pretty small but I'm talking smaller.

In attempting to continue this dialogue with you, I ran across geosynthetic soil reinforcement using advanced materials wherein the reinforced soil then behaves like a composite. This behavior seems to have come as somewhat of a surprise. Found a comprehensive conference that took place last year on these systems and the bulk of presentation was research on failure mechanisms. So I think I've found what I was looking for sparked by your intriguing thread.

The thing that interested me originally was a sinkhole in a fairly newly repaired roadway using advanced materials for the repair. Drilling, fracking, mining and underground building, except for a water main (also newly repaired) didn't seem to play a part. This geosynthetic soil reinforcement would also be used in order to be able to build in areas that wouldn't otherwise support building. So there again, composite failures could be responsible for some sinkholes.

Ancient sinkholes and I guess even some calderas might come under your mechanisms. That is, of course, if we don't presuppose cyclical civilizations with similar patterns and ends and, therefore, ancient composite failures due to ancient geosynthetic soil reinforcement efforts using then advanced but now outdated materials.

I read this and informationally it seems inconcise and/or vague to me.

To be specific , open pit mines produces acid runoff ...why?

What are the properties of the advanced materials that produce different results from the (historically?) used "un" advanced materials? ( in relation to sink holes ..please)

what do you mean by composite( I understand the 'implication ' of the usage) but please elaborate about the 'boundaries' of the localized composition and thermal transactions based on time ( and pressure) ?

and

are ancient civilization "artifacts" involved ? ..that discussion of prevalence or "whys"is not anywhere the first domino of HOW,

which is what I am asking

reply to post by Silverlok

and

are ancient civilization "artifacts" involved ? ..that discussion of prevalence or "whys"is not anywhere the first domino of HOW,

which is what I am asking

The oldest eyewitness account of a sinkhole that I've read is from the days of the Exodus:

Numbers Chapter 16

31And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:

32And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

In this instance, the sinkhole closed back up and there was also fire. This is described in the rest of the chapter at the link I've given. There was an artifact - the Ark of the Covenant - but whether or not this had a role in the sinkhole is unknown.

In the times of the Exodus, there was a breakdown of civilization and my thought was that part of this breakdown could have been precipitated by the use of then advanced materials just as now this use is rampant and leads me to explore the possibility of surprise failures with these materials now as then.

what do you mean by composite( I understand the 'implication ' of the usage) but please elaborate about the 'boundaries' of the localized composition and thermal transactions based on time ( and pressure) ?

The advanced materials in use today which go to make up advanced composites have as one of their elements particles which are smaller than micro. Because of this, reactions are non-linear. The bulk of reactions are discovered by accident because there is no predictability like there is in the majority micro world (micro and sub-micro don't have a defined boundary so some technically micro will behave like sub-micro and versa etc.)(It's an arbitrary boundary of measurement.)

Time is unknown because the use of these materials is so new. Pressure is a problem in the sense that it creates stress particularly in continual more pressure - less pressure situations. The composite itself going into less pressure and then more pressure manifests stress by collecting water within the sub-micro portions of the composite. This, in some materials, is what leads to failure. (Just one example.)

What are the properties of the advanced materials that produce different results from the (historically?) used "un" advanced materials? ( in relation to sink holes ..please)

There are a few artifacts kicking around from ancient times that used similar processes (appear to have used similar processes.) The art of how they were fashioned is lost to time and some cannot be reproduced even today. Catastrophic failure of infrastructure is not to my knowledge considered in the demise of civilizations. Further, that the failure should be attributed to device by man is only myth - as in the collapse of Atlantis, itself mythical.

So the sinkhole, as a manifestation of catastrophic failure of geosynthetic soil reinforcement acting as a composite (advanced), could have manifested in previous civilization cycles.

To be specific , open pit mines produces acid runoff ...why?

Say whaaat? You all lost me with that one!

reply to post by luxordelphi


Using the bible as a sole reference material for scientific discourse ( and very poorly correlating or integrating the data relations) is good and solid science. Righty. And annully fitted monkeys that fly out of ones anus are a good cure for sneezing...just common knowledge that ...right ?

now to some science :

mine slag ( as water run off ) is acidic , especially from pit mines

WHY

does the bible have a cute saying for why ( and if so which bible)

here is an important consideration:

mysterious 'booming sounds have been heard all over the globe ...but a lot more frequently in fracking areas and areas with GIANT underpinning continuous strata ( one huge slab of 'rock")

this leads to an interesting causative effect.

if ( as is now generally accepted) the weird ass ground booms are from substrata cracking then those sub strata cracks become the heat vents that power sinkholes

reply to post by Silverlok


An eyewitness report, though inconvenient, still remains what it is - an eyewitness report. There are actually some aspects of that ancient (3300 +/- year old) sinkhole report that coincide with some of your assumptions: a desert in the mid-latitudes (border-line sub-tropics.) I was throwing you a bone.

But...I really have a problem with this part of your post (the part where you explain 'mine slag' and somehow tie it to 'mysterious booming sounds' as long as there is a large subterranean rock and then you wind up by saying that this is now 'generally accepted.'):

if ( as is now generally accepted) the weird ass ground booms are from substrata cracking then those sub strata cracks become the heat vents that power sinkholes

(...sorry - using notepad which won't support your original bold and larger type...)

So...are you now trolling your own thread?

Further, I made it clear before that heat from below is not a prerequisite in the particular sinkholes I've been studying because, depending on the materials used, and the stresses and environmental conditions experienced, they make their own heat. And quite a bit of it.

Interesting hypothesis, I have no idea how valid it might be and whether this dude is a nut-case, but it seems that if his predictions are true sinkholes would be just some of the consequences as geothermal instability would be localized - at least initially.

Jumping Jack Flash Hypothesis

reply to post by Wertwog

Nice find I guess I am not in the vanguard ( no matter how hysterical that fellow sounds his reasoning and science are sound ) on this , but the wheel will always be discovered again and again ...

Another interesting tid bit is "hilt's law" which is apparently well known inside certain ( petrochemically related ) geophysical analysis circles.

Hilt's law ( which the reference to it was edited out of Wikipedia's article on coal almost as I read it ) is that coal deposits get more pure as you go deeper

BUT

only in vertical columns.

Which supports heat transfer in the earth following the order of the square ( surface area contact) as opposed to the radiant ( order of the cube ) that math and naivete might propose.

If coal seams form vertically based on heat but stop forming at high (high pressure changing the surface area to density heat transfer profile ) pressure ( an observed phenomenon fact described by hills 'law') then heat "likes " to come out of the ground straight up in vertical columns

too bad no one has ever noticed anything like that

luxordelphi
reply to post by Silverlok

 

An eyewitness report, though inconvenient, still remains what it is - an eyewitness report. There are actually some aspects of that ancient (3300 +/- year old) sinkhole report that coincide with some of your assumptions: a desert in the mid-latitudes (border-line sub-tropics.) I was throwing you a bone.

But...I really have a problem with this part of your post (the part where you explain 'mine slag' and somehow tie it to 'mysterious booming sounds' as long as there is a large subterranean rock and then you wind up by saying that this is now 'generally accepted.'):

if ( as is now generally accepted) the weird ass ground booms are from substrata cracking then those sub strata cracks become the heat vents that power sinkholes

(...sorry - using notepad which won't support your original bold and larger type...)

So...are you now trolling your own thread?

Further, I made it clear before that heat from below is not a prerequisite in the particular sinkholes I've been studying because, depending on the materials used, and the stresses and environmental conditions experienced, they make their own heat. And quite a bit of it.

NOt entirely sure how one can troll their own thread but that might be a nice vacation ...metaphysically speaking.

last thing first :

the word " sinkhole" is obviously overly ubiquitous as a scientific term. does the urban Guetamalasinkhole have any relation to theWisconsin one?

certainly some sink holes are from simple structural oddities and PURELY physical reactions to erosion and water transport ....but seriously that Guatemalan hole is no water depression or limestone cavity collapse.

Sub strata cracking and booms are related Wisconsin Mystery Booms & Michigan Crack Are Related!

it is my supposition ( clearly behind the times as hilt was determining heat columns years ago for the petroleum industry )cracks in the earths allow a) heat transfer a up and b) water transport down

Open pit mining leaves huge hole in the ground exposed to air.

have you ever heard of a thermal moho(le)?

a deep pit will be cooler at the bottom than the ground level air , thus water will condense ( under a variety of conditions ) down and into the open pit ( not to mention rain ...etc...etc...)

the average ground temperature at only a few feet is around 55F, deeper is hotter . it takes about four days for average ground temps to catch average air temps

So let's put the pieces together:

aerobic bacteria exist in the ground( it's why composting works ) , they need a certain temperature and oxygen absent environment to work other wise they go dormant ( in fact oxygen stops them cold in their tracks )

They also need sufficient water to thrive

so...if soil that was buried and is now exposed to air is teeming with anaerobic bacteria that is dormant until a sufficient oxygen less situation occurs ( rain or water coating of some kind ( dew, condensation ) then two things become priori:

one: the flow from pit mines will be highly acidic ( because the water allows the biota to become active until dry again ) ...check we know that is a fact

two massive amounts of anaerobic bacteria must be almost universally present in the earth's "oxygen" less regions for this to be true

hence the thermal /chemical nature of really radical sink holes becomes a very likely scenario

reply to post by TrueAmerican



Not that tuff..

BIG thread already started just after christmas last year..

Sinkhole Watch 2013

Komodo
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

Not that tuff..

BIG thread already started just after christmas last year..

Sinkhole Watch 2013

And here was the question True asked

Well first I think you'd have to establish that sinkholes are increasing,

When I started tracking sinkholes late last year, there were about 16 sinkholes per week that I was alerted to and now that figure is up around 25.

But, a better question is prior to this past year, have you ever heard of a man falling into a 70 foot deep perfectly cylindrical hole and dying, or how about a large Orlando, FL resort caving into a sinkhole, or better yet...have you ever heard of a man sleeping in his bedroom and is swallowed up into a sinkhole never to be heard from again. What about a golfer out on the course falling into an 18-foot deep hole and fracturing his shoulder. The list of sinkholes swallowing cars this year is quite impressive. Oh yeah, what about the large office building in China that collapsed into a sinkhole this year, and the guy in China walking down a sidewalk in a large city when the ground swallowed him up and kills him (caught on closed circuit tv).

Come on True, I have a lot of respect for you on here... you start a lot of cool threads, but to say that this is because of population growth! Our dense population on this planet didn't start in the last two years as did the explosion of these sinkholes.

As far as tracking the sinkholes goes, I simply get google alerts to all known sinkholes and they continue to increase at an alarming rate. Also, one thing I've noticed about the google alerts is that they tend to pick up mostly North American sinkholes and only the large and significant ones in China (which is quite a bit). It neglects the rest of the world, which experiences a lot of these holes as other posters from around the world have indicated to me.

I was posting all the sinkholes on the Watch 2013 thread, but I work a full time job plus run a summer business so I simply got way too busy to keep up and neglected the thread, but here is a sampling of these Google Alerts;

This one for Sept. 21

Benefit planned for sinkhole repair
The Review
EAST LIVERPOOL - The appearance of a large sinkhole in the parking lot of American Legion Post 374 on Parkway has members planning a public benefit Sept ...
See all stories on this topic »

The Review
District discovers suspected sinkhole
Kilgore News Herald
Kilgore ISD is taking no chances with a suspected sinkhole behind the Credit Recovery Center on Longview Street, Supt. Cara Cooke says. NEWS HERALD ...
See all stories on this topic »
DeLand pizza business on stilts due to sinkhole
WFTV Orlando
The owner of a building in downtown DeLand is worried a sinkhole may swallow ... Owner Johnny Kadrio said sinkhole activity is happening under the structure.
See all stories on this topic »
Small Sinkhole On South Phillips Avenue
KELOLAND TV
If you're driving south on Phillips Avenue near 14th Street, keep your eyes out for a potential road hazard. On the side of the road, you may notice a road block ...
See all stories on this topic »

KELOLAND TV
City money going down the legal sinkhole
Chino Champion
The people in Chino Hills should sigh a breath of relief that the city council has finally figured a way to solve the encroachment problem without throwing a lot ...
See all stories on this topic »
Socorro prioritizing cleanup of flood damage, sinkholes
KFOX El Paso
That includes a sinkhole that is about 50 feet deep near Thunder Road, one of the ... People living near the uphill side of the sinkhole told KFOX14 they do not ...
See all stories on this topic »

Madaline Keeble escapes Smart car trapped in sinkhole - msnNOW
Smart cars are great for parking in cities because they can fit just about anywhere. Unfortunately for Madaline Keeble of Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla., "just about ...
now.msn.com/madaline-keeble-escapes-smart-car-trapped-in-s...

Deland pizza business on stilts due to sinkhole | www.news965.com
The owner of a building in downtown DeLand is worried a sinkhole may swallow his business. Tony's Pizza New York Avenue is being held by stilts.
www.news965.com/news/news/local/deland-pizza.../nZ394/

U.S. Marine dies after falling into 70-ft sinkhole - Military1
Marines News: US Marine dies after falling into 70ft sinkhole.
www.military1.com/.../405720-us-marine-dies-after-falling-int...

The Daily Home - Good decisions on sinkhole project
Good decisions on sinkhole project - Alabama 21 was reopened this week without fanfare as the Alabama Department of Transportation's emergency $9 million ...
www.dailyhome.com/.../article-Good-decisions-on-sinkhole-pr...

3D seismic images of Louisiana sinkhole released - YouTube
Residents of Bayou Corne, La., received the latest update on the sinkhole that has kept them under an evacuation order for the past 411 days. Nick Foley of W...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEWQXBrH2gk

Cibola Beacon - Large Sink Hole By D. Jaramillo A large... | Facebook
Large Sink Hole By D. Jaramillo A large sinkhole has been reported on Interstate 40 at mile marker 131 in the median. According to Undersheriff Tony...
www.facebook.com...

Benefit planned for sinkhole repair - The East Liverpool Review
EAST LIVERPOOL — The appearance of a large sinkhole in the parking lot of American Legion Post 374 on Parkway has members planning a public benefit...
www.reviewonline.com/page/content.detail/id/569111.html
Crane Swallowed by Sink Hole 9-19-2013 6-57-21 PM - Crane ...

Crane Swallowed by Sink Hole 9-19-2013 6-57-21 PM. 09/20/13 ... Crane Swallowed by Sink Hole 9-19-2013 6-57-21 PM. Category: Tags: ...
www.craneaccidents.com/.../crane-swallowed-by-sink-hole-9-...

That's one day, and some are repeats. Seems the main headlines for the day are the woman in her smart car swallowed up in Florida, a crane accident where the crane falls into sinkhole, a large sinkhole on I-40, a pizza business in FL that may be collapsing into sinkhole, the funeral for the Marine who fell in the hole in Missouri and died a few days ago. Those are just one day.

reply to post by Rezlooper


excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

Komodo
reply to post by Rezlooper

 

excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

..a bit more uneasy about what?

( an interesting aside : in the CIA handbook about 'misdirection' using misspelling on purpose in the internet environ tends to give the casual viewer more confidence in the "authenticity" of the poster)

so ..again a few facts ( remember we are trying to do science here ...your supposition is just that ...you support it with no theoretical basis beyond implied supposition ...interesting in and of itself)

so to get back to the subject :

ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ?

Silverlok

Komodo
reply to post by Rezlooper

 

excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

..a bit more uneasy about what?

( an interesting aside : in the CIA handbook about 'misdirection' using misspelling on purpose in the internet environ tends to give the casual viewer more confidence in the "authenticity" of the poster)

so ..again a few facts ( remember we are trying to do science here ...your supposition is just that ...you support it with no theoretical basis beyond implied supposition ...interesting in and of itself)

so to get back to the subject :

ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ?

I have NO idea..

what you are trying to say ..

say it .. and say it plainly so all of us can understand.. !!!
wow ~!!

Komodo
reply to post by Rezlooper

 

excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

Many duplicate in the Google Alerts, and when I was doing regular updates on the Sinkhole Watch thread, I would post each individually so as not to allow repeats. But, as I said before they have risen in frequency from an average of 16 sinkholes a week to 25 a week.

Komodo

Silverlok

Komodo
reply to post by Rezlooper

 

excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

..a bit more uneasy about what?

( an interesting aside : in the CIA handbook about 'misdirection' using misspelling on purpose in the internet environ tends to give the casual viewer more confidence in the "authenticity" of the poster)

so ..again a few facts ( remember we are trying to do science here ...your supposition is just that ...you support it with no theoretical basis beyond implied supposition ...interesting in and of itself)

so to get back to the subject :

ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ?

I have NO idea..

what you are trying to say ..

say it .. and say it plainly so all of us can understand.. !!!
wow ~!!

learn how to read( from the post previous to yours)

"ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ? "

or stop posting

CAN I MAKE IT SIMPLER...or perhaps try making your questions contentual...meaning I cannot define things not asked..or not even defined

your intelligence or ignorance is not defined so how can I talk to you "plainly" about ANY subject

Silverlok

Komodo

Silverlok

Komodo
reply to post by Rezlooper

 

excellent thread btw..!

now with all those alerts, I wounder which ones are dublicated from others.. goggle just spits out whatever website is posting the tigger name..

or is it? Is each one of these a seperate instance?? if so .. I'm feeling a bit more uneasy ..

..a bit more uneasy about what?

( an interesting aside : in the CIA handbook about 'misdirection' using misspelling on purpose in the internet environ tends to give the casual viewer more confidence in the "authenticity" of the poster)

so ..again a few facts ( remember we are trying to do science here ...your supposition is just that ...you support it with no theoretical basis beyond implied supposition ...interesting in and of itself)

so to get back to the subject :

ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ?

I have NO idea..

what you are trying to say ..

say it .. and say it plainly so all of us can understand.. !!!
wow ~!!

learn how to read( from the post previous to yours)

"ARE sinkholes ( vertical circular columns ) formed as cavities in the soil from thermally induced chemical reactions based on the difference between heat transfers "radiation " surface area verses density ? "

or stop posting

CAN I MAKE IT SIMPLER...or perhaps try making your questions contentual...meaning I cannot define things not asked..or not even defined

your intelligence or ignorance is not defined so how can I talk to you "plainly" about ANY subject

edit on 24-9-2013 by Silverlok because: drunkfingers

ok ..

mr.troll..

wow.. !!! clam down .. way down..cuz' if you can decide what I ment.. then don't get your big boy panties in a bunch .. k ? leave it alone and don't post..

reply to post by Komodo


how are emotions involved here?

SCIENCE

we are trying to do science

please help or expect me to treat you like #

Do you have some information about sinkholes...the increasing temperature of the Earth , geophysics or chemistry you would like to add to your 'statements' ?....

yes I am an ass....tough #...but the question still remains : are sink holes thermally and chemically pumped ?

I am saying most likely yes ...

you are saying...er..what ? ( about the actual subject)