Sinkholes, are we missing something?

I was looking over the current sink hole situation and a couple of things struck me as not quite right.

First the theoretical( because that is what they are ) mechanisms of formation, the tendency to a round shape, and the seemingly ubiquitous nature of their distribution over a range of geologies.

for example Outrageo postulates:

The consensus among my fellow geologists and geographers is that the incidence of sinkhole activity is increasing primarily because of rapid urban development in areas that are typically replete with collapsed limestone cavities in the bedrock beneath.

Some of these areas extend for hundreds of square miles. It's like building on top of a giant sponge with a thin covering. The thin soil covering is mostly open space as well, filled with either air or water, and on top of this is frequently constructed heavy concrete buildings, roads, and other structures (and their contents).

...but this does not explain at all the extent of sink holes in the Arizona desert and elsewhere.

follow this link and see some of what I am saying

Also the formation theory is based on drainage or existing cavity , which only pushes the problem down a mythical layer: where did these cavities come from or how is it that low density material can be washed out and down ( in a circular vertical hole in most cases mind you ) into higher density lower strata?

In other words the the formation theories currently exposed only work if ALL subsurface strata follow a relationship physically and chemically Identical to that of salt(solid) and water(liquid).

Since we KNOW sink holes form from salt domes we know the basic mechanism , physically speaking, for sinkhole formation, but how and why do other various subsurface geologies ALL have such a close resemblance ( round hole, straight down, water normally present, rapid surface deterioration) over such a wide variety of chemistrys and physical properties?

I suggest that sinkhole formation is primarily thermal in nature which then gives rise to a bunch of secondary conditions such as sulfate reducing bacteria , hydrogen sulfide erosion or degradation of strata and a 'proper' redistribution of mass in a fluid environment ( i.e. light elements go up and heavy elements go down)

This is how it works:

The earth is hotter the lower you go in it, this is a fact.
Space is cold this is a fact.
Heat tries to transfer from the earth's core out to space in a straight line,. this is a fact of thermodynamics.

The Earth's crust is the "frozen" layer between the two heat extremes and has a kind of equilibrium giving the earth an average temperature of around 57F (surface) (Yes the atmosphere is involved but for sinkholes that really only involves the presence or absence of water to any given ground area)

This means that due to geological subsurface formations or shapes some near surfaces areas are hotter from underground heat than others . Volcanoes are an extreme direct proof that this is a truism of the natural structures of the world and that heat likes to follow tubular columns up from below

Now given that supposition cavities in the earth should form from the bottom up along a salt/water similarity model from any subsurface ground that has higher ( but not too high ) temperatures than it's surroundings, they should form a vertical (thermal channel) based on heat moving up.

This leads us to a few priori:
sinkholes ( and volcanoes ) should form over hot spots in the earth's crust. these spots would be the thin spots ( the midlatitudes( because of near surface temperature conditions )) and because of that : some coastal regions , regions that have any mechanism to have locally concentrated heat barriers (or generators) ( buildings, mountains, oil reservoirs, radioactive subsurface materials ...etc) we would not expect too see deep water sink holes (much too cold ) or high altitude sink hole (same reason ) but should see a lot of 'shallow' water and 'near' sea level holes

The critical factor would be subsurface temperatures around 100C(roughly 212F...a very important number when calculating subsurface chemical reaction speeds)

Why 100C?

Because that is where a lot of Sulfate-reducing bacteria thrive in an anaerobic(lack of oxygen) environment.
(a must read link)
One type of biofilm, called a snottite because of its appearance, has a pH of zero or one," said one of the researchers Daniel Jones, also of Penn State. "This is very, very acidic."

These biota Extremophiles are extremely hardy nearly ubiquitous...and exist in all of the harshest conditions on earth and in space, to think they are not the MAJOR FORCE IN CAVE AND TUBE FORMATION IS SIMPLY STUPID.

The scenario is that a particularly cool section of deep earth is at 100C the biota flourish...hydrogen sulfide is produced (erroding the upper part of the space and moving denser materials down) the process expands radially as it moves up, the growing cavity filling itself in as it digs/dissolves ( in most cases) ...a chemical worm hole fueled by bacteria

The presence of water would fuel the process as long as it didn't cool it too much , but with or without water the heavy sediment deposition/chemical cavity forming process would be ( in at least some cases ) exponentially re-current. meaning it would seem to "surge" on a 'water-clock' like timely cycle ( just like yellow stone) due to thermal shielding ( the thicker the deposit layer on the bottom of the pool the slower it heats until the bacteria go dormant , stop adding to the layer and it heats enough to start the bacteria a again )

The "infinite cavern" in Vietnam is an example of water erosion and underground chemical 'from the bottom up' processes meeting and mutually re-enforce(ing) ( over LONG periods of time )

Bottom line ...the evidence indicates sink hole are a from the bottom up phenomenon....

Which leads to an interesting next question...if they are increasing why ?

Obviously the average temperature of the earth has increased in the last hundred years ( please spare me the reasons why) but that means either the earth expands ( as the surface area defines heat transfer but the volumne defines heat retention ...meaning ...mathematically...every once in a while the two meet at 'phase'l plateaus) or it heats up internally.

if it heats internally the pressure rises if the size does not ...the internal fluids slow due to increased friction and more near surface areas have extra heat ...
the priori for this are lower planetary magnetic fields strengths (the dynamo slowing ) and more sink holes as the earth transmits more heat to space

So many in such a short time frame tend to make it seem as if something is amiss within the earths crust.
And it's being ignored.....

reply to post by Silverlok


Well first I think you'd have to establish that sinkholes are increasing, for that to be an interesting question. And that's going to be tough.

From this NatGeo article:

Is the frequency of sinkholes increasing these days?

The answer is we don't know, because we just don't have enough data. Sinkholes aren't widespread events like hurricanes or earthquakes. They're very localized. A lot of karst areas are agricultural, because they tend to have very good farming soil. And sinkholes happen all the time in farmers' fields.

But there's no national or international sinkhole database. Still, as our population grows and we develop more areas that are susceptible, we seem to be seeing more sinkholes—and more stories about humans being impacted by them.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

So really it may be just a question of population growth expanding into more areas, combined with an increasingly aware populous because of the internet and information age. I think we are in WAY too short of a geologic time slice for the earth itself to change significantly enough for there to be increasing sinkholes. Maybe over thousands or millions of years, but...

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
reply to post by Silverlok

 

Well first I think you'd have to establish that sinkholes are increasing, for that to be an interesting question. And that's going to be tough.

From this NatGeo article:

Is the frequency of sinkholes increasing these days?

The answer is we don't know, because we just don't have enough data. Sinkholes aren't widespread events like hurricanes or earthquakes. They're very localized. A lot of karst areas are agricultural, because they tend to have very good farming soil. And sinkholes happen all the time in farmers' fields.

But there's no national or international sinkhole database. Still, as our population grows and we develop more areas that are susceptible, we seem to be seeing more sinkholes—and more stories about humans being impacted by them.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

So really it may be just a question of population growth expanding into more areas, combined with an increasingly aware populous because of the internet and information age. I think we are in WAY too short of a geologic time slice for the earth itself to change significantly enough for there to be increasing sinkholes. Maybe over thousands or millions of years, but...

for my core to be true the frequency does not have to be increasing...that is just an "aside" ...in fact if you understand the principle then geological FEATURES are the starting point...

and I severely disagree with you that building by humans is the cause (thermally ..geophysical speaking ), in most cases.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


and that was not even one of only many priori

So really it may be just a question of population growth expanding into more areas, combined with an increasingly aware populous because of the internet and information age. I think we are in WAY too

NO

and no

You are not doing good science

hydrogen sulfide produces cavities...cavities create collapse ...show me how your assertion is right?

on a personal note : why be like you are...are you so sure you are right.

reply to post by Silverlok


You should reread TrueAmericans post. He does not claim that humans growth is causing the sinkholes. Human growth makes us encounter with them more often and we spread the information (like vids and pics) ever faster on the net. We just have more eyes too see on more locations telling and showing about it to more ears that listen and eyes that watch.

reply to post by Silverlok


There are a number of sinkholes that have occurred in roads of one kind and another. In some of these instances the roads were recently repaved, redone in some way. What are called advanced materials were used for the repair. In a few cases the roads were repaired, not because there was a problem, or had ever been a problem, but because something underneath needed to be redone, like a main. In some cases they just buckled.

In light of recent repairs, wouldn't you look first to environmentally untested materials? Or could those in some way precipitate the dynamics you're describing? Really interesting by the way.

Its been my speculation, that waxing and waning of sun cycles,as well as the active space clouds" earth may traverse, (were in one now....) as in electrically/or particlewise....
combined with e universe principals may cause internal heating of earth to some degree It is having effects we are seeing...
If one adds in any new "fumaroles? (ala Romes airport eruption....). sinkhole opposites from the same source there could be some argument that the heat exchange is on the uptick right now....
Which brings us to the why of it.....
Deep drilling techniques, both on land and at sea (BP)
Fracking round the globe?
Subtle changes in the inner blance of the molten nickel ironcore?
They could be gravitic,magnetic,electric or otherwise instigated.....thus the rising heat brings earth changes?
Somehow i don't think the efforts of mankind are the source of such movements in the nature of our environment.......
I hate to bring up Nibiru again, but some gravitic disturbance in our quadrant of space....
Could bring about such effects too.....or perhaps we are entering and area where darkmatter is more plentiful?

see my attempted feeble take about the conventional wisdom of the formation of sinkholes - and the conflicting phenomena of perfectly round sinkholes forming, even w/an example of a sinkhole in a body of water. Post is found in the: Sinkhole Watch 2013 thread, submitted on 8-28... just a couple of days ago.

reply to post by Silverlok

Which leads to an interesting next question...if they are increasing why ?

First I would answer the "If" before getting into "why".


And what we are missing , sinkholes and stuff that relates?

A silver dude on a silver surfboard.

i407.photobucket.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Silverlok


TextText

ALERT Sink Holes ...... I have a theory on sink holes you may find interesting.
ALERT Sea water found deep in the earths crust.........

What is a sink hole and how are they formed???????

A sink hole is formed when a cavity down below is opened up and water finds a path downward. Like flushing a toilet.

So why do these cavity`s form??????

Some are natural some are man made.......

What man made cavity`s deep below the earth???????????? Go figure........

Riddle me this science people ..........

Can anyone tell me how many gallons or liters of oil have been removed from the earth ????????????

How many years has this been going on ??????????

Can anyone tell me the max depth of a well drilled in the sea bed ????????????????

Or this one how many cubes of gas have been removed from the earth???????????

Now ponder this ...... With all the melt of the sea ice taking place where on earth is all that water going????

I gave a clue in the beginning.

down down down you got it right......

Following me yet ??????

Ok so stay with me now.

So Man drills thousands of holes in the ocean floor to fill his need for oil and gas over hundreds of years.

Man then burns up all of this oil and gas pulled from the earth.

What has happened so far???????

1.) Cavity was created
2.) Water pressure moving downward
3.) Earth expanding
4.) Earth is lighter -minus the oil
5.) Does earth speed up then???? Yes it does.
6.) atomic clock have to be adjusted
7.) Earth heats up. Why do you think? This is only temporary. Think what would happen if you poured water in your car,
8.) The upper crust is baked.
9.) More fresh water disappears
10.) Crops need more water to produce
11.) The crust expands and cracks the core contracts more sink holes form
12.) More sea water finds its way to the core
13.) The core starts cooling
14.) Ice age is on the way
15.) Something don`t seem right it is summer and it is snowing wth is going on
16.) And this goes on and on and on until poof we are all gone.
17.)The End See you in the after life.....................

What.....

or does it slow down??????

After all water is lighter than oil right????

Wrong oil floats on water water is heaver and thus the earth will spin faster.

What I understand from high-school geography/geology, was that sinkholes form in areas of land composed from sedimentary rock layers like clay, sandstone and limestone, formed from the deposition of eroded rock and compacted into solid layers. Layers of clay and igneous rock form waterproof seals that block the water from sinking down any further.

Then when it rains, the falling water carries whatever is in the air (salt from the sea, smog) along with anything in the upper soil levels. This forms underground lakes and rivers of acidic water as the water seeks the lowest layer. The flow of this water dissolves away the limestone or sandstone, creating caverns, stalagtites and stalagmites. When the roof of the cavern becomes thin enough it may collapse causing a sinkhole to appear. Otherwise it may fill with salt from the sea as the water is transported by tides and evaporates.

reply to post by hollowearth

Now ponder this ...... With all the melt of the sea ice taking place where on earth is all that water going???? I gave a clue in the beginning. down down down you got it right...... Following me yet ??????

or UP, as water evaporates into the atmosphere and rains back down.

reply to post by hollowearth
Brilliant!!! Nice interplay between different elemental earthly forces... Nicely worded... and a possible scenario, IMHO.

I'll take a stab at the big picture.... my version:

Everything you said remains the same, except that:

Maybe the oil is not really gone, but as it's burnt up, it goes into the atmosphere as smog/pollution. So then the earth is lighter and wants to spin faster, but the smog somehow gives more resistance to the spin. Thus overall, the earth ends up spinning about the same speed- but now because the smog is poorly distributed, with different, new twists and torques on it.... These forces that are rendering tears in the earth... making earthquakes and allowing more lava to flow... wakening volcanoes that were dormant for thousands of years, and creating new weather severe patterns... The end is the same as you stated, just it gets there a little differently maybe. My $.02

Missing something?
Other than drilling and mining the earth for oil gas and minerals changing most of it from solid to gasses leaving empty spaces? Nope havent a clue
Also would you tie a plastic bag around your head then go for a run? How would you feel?
My answer would be probably the same as when they realize the importance of trees when its too late.

Look up 'Karst Formation.' That's it. :-)

reply to post by stirling


take anaerobic dry sand ( millions of years old ) out of Wisconsin, then pump it underground to a moist environment ( fracing) and expect no chemically dormant (biological) elements to react indifferently to a new temperature and hydrology environment?..only one small example


...one small example of biological contamination that should certainty be included as central in 'impact"; studies

reply to post by luxordelphi


Interesting.

if you would name some of the materials that would be ...noticeable..but nice

(don't get yourself in trouble but local thermal changes would seem to be HEAVILY in play ..as "new" materials for roads, have to deal with MASSIVE thermal expansions and contractions everyday...which would obviously change how they interact with the , always present , thermal columns from underneath )


At any rate the average temp of the earth is 55 ( or so it might be 56 or fifty seven depending on WHOM one asks ) F

The earth gets hotter the deeper you go ( a mile down is like an average of 100F )

Which means some point on the crust , at the perfect thermal depth, harbors the perfect conditions for anaerobic bacteria to flourish.

this leads to some priori

the presence of water

the "infection" of the "right" kind of bacteria in the soil

thermal chemical and geological conditions that allows transport of the acid vapor cavity

...have we seen anything that might look like this

on edit:

AN INTERESTING THOUGHT IS THAT "new road" sink holes would be most prevalent in high clay sand soils at high saturation ( water ) in hot environs ( where surface ( road) TEMPS REACH over 95 for more than 8 to 10 days at a time . so almost ALL of Florida and any low spot in the desert anywhere that is arid ( as opposed to being Sahara like )

reply to post by Silverlok


The advanced materials, in play within the infrastructure since approx. the late 1990's, without naming the rose, are new cements for roads and water mains, materials for switches and ties for railroads, bars and bolts for bridges, etc. Not actually as cryptic as it sounds because the materials are in constant flux - a dynamic process to fine-tune and make better.

The materials are not able to readily absorb heat but have a lot of surface area where heat can collect, unable to dissipate. Biological agents have also been used in the mix. Some materials simply become brittle and crumble while still looking pristine on the surface. Water, for some, within the atomic structure, is the enemy and can cause unseen degradation.

The ingredients you describe are actually all, already present within the materials themselves. Incidence is throughout the country (countries) with (this is not anywhere near conclusive) seemingly less problem in arid climates and more in humidity.