Stanton Friedman Debunks Bob Lazar

reply to post by EthanT




Brings to mind that old adage:-


When rogues fall out, truth is revealed, and honest men get justice ....

Wait wait wait..hold on...I though lazar was killed along with Schneider because of the disclosures he made?

im geniuly confused, can someone please explain?

reply to post by ZimZam

Lazar is still alive and well. As for this whole question about his employment status, and what he may have had access to just look at Snowden and what he had access to.

Friedman may have had reason to misinform the public on Lazar. Personally I find it strange that Friedman couldn't find anything on Lazar, but Knapp could. I think this all comes down to:

"If Friedman did lie about his research on Lazar in an attempt to discredit him, who directed this? Was it a ploy by Friedman to corner the factual UFO research, was it directed by Friedman's former employers in order to hide the information Lazar was talking about, or was this whole thing just a ploy by Friedman to distract us from the investigation that some members of the UFO community was conducting on the validity of the MJ-12 documents?"

we may not be able to verify alien saucers or personnel or facilities but look at what Lazar was right about. even what we might think he was wrong about.

first he claims there is a secret facility at area 51 and the vicinity. was he right about that?

Yes. Big time. though this does not mean there are aliens there or recovered saucers. so this isn't an important bit of evidence in the scheme of things.

next he claims there is something unusually about certain metals like Bismuth and the disputed element 115. was he right about that?

Yes. Bismuth is weird. it has an unusual nucleonic configuration which makes plausible his further claims concerning nucleonic properties. and he definitely isn't the only one making or to have made such claims.

he Claims element 115 exists. he claims it is stable. was he right about any of that?

The jury is out. element 115 does exist but that does not validate his claims about element 115. the synthesized isotopes are not stable. however the isotope with the heaviest nucleus; the one closest the his predicted isotope is more stable than the lighter version. the method used to synthesize element 115 cannot produce his predicted stable isotopic configuration. does this debunk him or support him? you could go either way i suppose. but i think that the tendency to longer half-lives for heavier versions of 115 supports him to an extent.

here is his most important testable claim in my opinion: He claims that gravity and the strong force are the same thing in different manifestations. If this is false none of his other claims are of any importance at all. So...is he right about this?

YES HE IS! a trio of very well credentialed and award winning scientists in appropriate fields now say that quantum gravitons are identical to Gluons. Gluons are the force carrier for the strong nuclear force. all you need to do to describe a graviton is double a gluon. bear in mind how long ago Lazar made his claims. years before there was anything in physics to indicate his claim was anything other than a delusion or lie. but he said this preposterous thing way back in the day and it turns out it is supported by subsequent research.

www.scientificamerican.com...

from that link you can track the physcicst's credentials, their awards, find their peer reviewed paper and find the authors more complete descriptions of their theory and it's proofs.

EDIT: the really cool thing is granting the description of a graviton in that paper is correct you do not even need element 115 to work with the strong force. Bismuth and a couple of other elements will do as a substitute. most of bismuth's properties are amenable to experimentation. its not toxic like other heavy metals. it half life is longer than the age of the universe. it won't irradiate you. it's metallic and easy to work. its diamagnetic properties means you can align it's nuclei as simply as you can ferrous metals which should amplify any field effects present including properties of it's strong force exchange particle fields in the event that this field really does go outside it's normal boundaries in other elemental nuclei. it has a low melting point though and it can thus be melted and forged and worked by a home experimenter without a lot of expensive equipment. it is available and not a restricted access substance. it is not incredibly rare and expensive.

about the only draw back to bismuth is it is not a particularly strong metal when compared to structural metals like iron and so forth and could shatter from excessive rotational or other stresses. it is slightly toxic but not extremely dangerous. I mean it is used in medicine such as pepto-bismol and so forth. Still; it can cause toxicity problems if not handled with at least minimal caution. it is nothing like lead or beryllium or other heavy metals in that regard.

reply to post by stormbringer1701


Bob said something along the lines of the element 115 he had access to was from another planet and not able to be replicated here on earth.

Stealthbomber
reply to post by stormbringer1701

 

Bob said something along the lines of the element 115 he had access to was from another planet and not able to be replicated here on earth.

yes. i think he also said that he was told that it was formed naturally when certain types of binary star systems reached the end of their life in a certain way. It may have been someone else though. At any rate; if that is true it would explain why the methods used by scientists so far could not make the proper stable isotope.

i suppose a skeptic would say it is because Lazar lied about element 115 being stable. That's possible. if i did not know a couple of facts about element 115 and about how other things Lazar said without scientific support later turned out to be supported by subsequent research i would believe that too.

However; the Russians identified two isotopes among the UUP they created. the heavier isotope is actually remarkably stable as far as synthesized super heavy elements go. in other words the heavier versions of UUP are more stable. this is not proof that Lazar told the truth but it is proof that it could be true.

What Lazar said about the nucleonic arrangement of Bismuth is true. UUP is in the same family as Bismuth. Bismuth does have unusual configurations and it is at least plausible that such an arrangement might expose the strong exchange field in such nuclei. Further bismuth has had a rep in outsider or fringe science circles predating Lazar by decades.

and the strongest evidence Lazar knew something extraordinary is the recent theoretical research by Zvi Bern, Dixon and Co. linking Gravitons to Gluons. That is extraordinary and not something that can be explained away credibly by a debunker. it also happens to be the one thing that has to be true for Lazar physics to work. If this were not true nothing else Lazar said would matter at all. stable UUP, Antimatter from element 116, etc. none of that is necessary for Lazar style anti-gravity to work. but for Lazar stuff to even be possible Gravity and the Strong Force must be related as he said.

reply to post by stormbringer1701


The stuff Bob said is fun to speculate on, but ultimately nothing he said matters because was unfortunately vague and unscientific when describing the actual science of the UFO. I think it's obvious why. Actual, working scientists have read his claims and they tend to laugh at his obvious lack of knowledge of basic physics, gravity, etc. He doesn't talk the lingo. He explains stuff wrong. He didn't go to Cal Tech and never even lived in MA let alone attended MIT. He did attend a junior college in CA before getting some kind of contracting position at LANL. After moving to NV he was self-employed as a photo processor.

Bob claims to have once owned (!) a stolen chip of the stable 115, but he says he locked it up and threw away the key forever. Suspending disbelief for a moment and assuming the story is true, BL is effectively hiding from all of humanity arguably the most important single piece of matter on the planet. Thanks a lot!

Anyway coming back to reality, he made it all up so, moot point.

dogshark
reply to post by stormbringer1701

 

The stuff Bob said is fun to speculate on, but ultimately nothing he said matters because was unfortunately vague and unscientific when describing the actual science of the UFO. I think it's obvious why. Actual, working scientists have read his claims and they tend to laugh at his obvious lack of knowledge of basic physics, gravity, etc. He doesn't talk the lingo. He explains stuff wrong. He didn't go to Cal Tech and never even lived in MA let alone attended MIT. He did attend a junior college in CA before getting some kind of contracting position at LANL. After moving to NV he was self-employed as a photo processor.

Bob claims to have once owned (!) a stolen chip of the stable 115, but he says he locked it up and threw away the key forever. Suspending disbelief for a moment and assuming the story is true, BL is effectively hiding from all of humanity arguably the most important single piece of matter on the planet. Thanks a lot!

Anyway coming back to reality, he made it all up so, moot point.

The stuff he said about the gravity strong force connection is now supported by science. to my knowledge there was no prior art from which he could have drawn that connection from. that means one of his claims has been tested and at least in the realm of theoretical physics what he said was affirmed by at least three Sakurai prize winning Physicists. It also just happens that this claim is the linch pin to all of his other claims. without this all of his other claims have no probability of being real. The state of GUT theories at the time he initially made the claim makes the likelihood of him pulling that randomly out of his rectum highly improbable. to me that is extraordinary.

I think Lazor claims are BS.

But I also think he was a goverment employe. Hired to spread BS claims about Area 51 ect to try and draw people attention away from the mundane but important aircraft tests and other R&D stuff that goes on.

It what I would do. Especialy if I had some test or project going on of a delicate nature. Rather than cover it up complety just get some guy give him a fake story with a few little truthfull details (and I use truthfull loosely) and set him up as a fake whitleblower. While all the attentions on him I do my project in peace.

hmmmm. you see here is the thing. when you ignore or fail to weight properly evidence put before you then the conclusions you come to are questionable in terms of quality. so far no one has said anything that takes into proper consideration the fact of him getting the strong force to gravity connection right.

e.g; "yeah; he got it right. but... i don't think his doing so proves he had special knowledge. i think he just guessed."

instead respondents did the equivalent of staring, blinking and repeating their dogmatic beliefs like a political consultant in a TV interview. I am disappointed.

stormbringer1701
hmmmm. you see here is the thing. when you ignore or fail to weight properly evidence put before you then the conclusions you come to are questionable in terms of quality. so far no one has said anything that takes into proper consideration the fact of him getting the strong force to gravity connection right.

e.g; "yeah; he got it right. but... i don't think his doing so proves he had special knowledge. i think he just guessed."

instead respondents did the equivalent of staring, blinking and repeating their dogmatic beliefs like a political consultant in a TV interview. I am disappointed.

Look he probably just some CIA monkey paid to spew BS to try and distract everyone away from the real and most likley very mundane but top secret programs really going on. The little bits of fact were probably fed to him by real scientists to make him seem some what credable.

crazyewok

Look he probably just some CIA monkey paid to spew BS to try and distract everyone away from the real and most likley very mundane but top secret programs really going on. The little bits of fact were probably fed to him by real scientists to make him seem some what credable.

But no one knew about this physical unification at the time he first made his claims. at the time unified field theories were essentially "fringe science" because general relativity modeled gravity as merely a curvature of space time. GR models did not predict the existance of gravitons. and Gluons were theoretical objects that bound quarks so tightly no free quark was expected to exist. no scientific instrument existed that could produce the energies required to create a gloun-quark plasma. that was still in the future by a couple of decades.

on the quantum mechanical side Gravitons were a known concept but no one knew what they would ultimately look like or where they would tie in to the other forces.

the two theories (QM and general relativity) were incompatible. and QM/QCD itself was incomplete because Feynman's math was unworkable for more complicated interactions.

reply to post by stormbringer1701


So ? As I said some REAL scientist working for the DOD who worked it out could have fed him that. It could have been worked out years ago by accident in a classified project and because of it low importance allowed to be leaked.

reply to post by Rosinitiate


This is a 50/50 situation for assassinations.

eg Alex Jones & Bill Cooper had a disagreement.
Due to Cooper's death a lot if people think Jones is a disinformation agent who was spared because he is a liar.
While Cooper was allegedly killed because he knew too much.

But consider this:
If they assassinate someone it automatically among CTs leads them to believe he must have been silenced, while those spared are COINTELPRO.
But then to murder the one with less info would make more sense in this case, as people would automatically think that's the line of thinking we need to believe is that of the deceased.
All the while those who order the hit are laughing as they know they've spared the truth teller, but no-one will believe them as they are not a target.

Almost like a double-bluff!


That's not to say they wouldn't silence someone closer to the truth, but sometimes to kill the one who got it wrong could lead to a bandwagon among the truth-seekers being mislead.

As for Freidman "debunking" Lazar...
While what he says maybe true, he is hardly a credible source considering the amount of times he himself has been exposed as a typical fraud.

To be honest if rather believe the guy who has a theory and a story, than a guy who wants to sell a book to the masses.

That doesn't mean I believe Lazar either.
He was probably an Area 51 employee with certain knowledge, even to this day he apparently works in engineering not-your-typical-but-actually-quite-advanced machinery.
He probably also lied about certain credentials of his education not maliciously, but rather to seem more experienced so people would listen to his claims.
If he had said "yeah I just studied chemistry at *insert unknown college/university*" most would probably have bypassed without listening to his claims.
Is it right? No!
Is it likely? Could be!
Would it work in finding a larger, more willing to pay attention audience? No doubt!

Freidman can go and write his books to make himself money!
Lazar merely wanted people to think!

Who's fabrication is more forgivable? That's up to you!

Peace.

reply to post by crazyewok


which scientist would know this at the time and how would they know it?

and I think you do not understand the significance of the "new" theory. If is more than a mathematical link and gluons and gravitons are the same basic force then it means so many revolutionary things that it would take several books to go through the implications and importance and life on earth would be changed forever.

but the most immediately obvious thing is no matter whether Lazar is any of the things he has been labelled or not everything he said related to space travel that matters would be real or at least highly plausible.

Occam's razor has sometimes been formulated as "don't multiply entities unnecessarily." which hypothesis multiplies entities more? the hypothesis that Lazar told the truth and that is why his theory matches current discoveries WRT gravity or the hypothesis that Lazar lied or was fed information by unknown scientists who should not have had the knowledge either since it wasn't invented yet and he just happened to accidentally tell the truth even though he was lying at the time?

in the later case you have multiplied entities more than the former in my opinion.

stormbringer1701


which scientist would know this at the time and how would they know it?

Why would Lazor know?

If he could know another scientist could have worked it out. They do alot of R&D in partical weapons and directed energy. Someone could have sumbled on it but not able to publish official in scientific journals due to the nature of what it was linked too. But the information could have been deemed worthless enough to give to Lazor as part of his story to give it some "crediability".

CIA mole fits alot better than alien tec guy.

reply to post by crazyewok


except that if the science is valid its first application would be facilitating easy space travel.

if you posit that the CIA or some mysterious para-governmental agency has developed antigravity and kept it secret thats an extraordinary claim in and of itself. Furthermore it is irrelevant whether Bob is the person who reveals it or not. lets not lose sight of the fact that at its heart this is about anti-gravity technology and not about persons.

the facts that now stand are that real credentialed well respected and award winning scientists now say what Bob said. and what they have said is (and unfortunately this could be literally true rather than metaphorically, by the way) earth shattering. they have said that the strong force is mathematically (and i still hope physically as well) the same thing as gravity. that gives us access to a frightening amount of speed though. which means any disturbed, insane, clumsy, distracted or intoxicated person or 7th century religious fanatic could make a doomsday weapon with it. it's atomic bombs worth of destructive potential in the hands of the masses. more than atomic levels actually no atomic bomb could pulverize the earth and send the dust out of the solar system. this could do that.

the basic principle though is now a testable claim. it requires no magic unobtainium like element 115 to produce. it's fairly straightforward to anyone with perhaps a few grand to buy the minimal materials and equipment needed. the mechanism by which the strong force may allegedly be accessed is also not that complicated. it might take a while to sort the details of the set up out but it is doable. formerly there were just a few garage type tinkerers that might have trusted bob's claims enough to commit to experimentation on the premise. now that real mainstream scientists have said the same thing though that lends it more credibility and likely more people will try it.

dogshark
reply to post by stormbringer1701

 

The stuff Bob said is fun to speculate on, but ultimately nothing he said matters because was unfortunately vague and unscientific when describing the actual science of the UFO. I think it's obvious why. Actual, working scientists have read his claims and they tend to laugh at his obvious lack of knowledge of basic physics, gravity, etc. He doesn't talk the lingo. He explains stuff wrong. He didn't go to Cal Tech and never even lived in MA let alone attended MIT. He did attend a junior college in CA before getting some kind of contracting position at LANL. After moving to NV he was self-employed as a photo processor.

Bob claims to have once owned (!) a stolen chip of the stable 115, but he says he locked it up and threw away the key forever. Suspending disbelief for a moment and assuming the story is true, BL is effectively hiding from all of humanity arguably the most important single piece of matter on the planet. Thanks a lot!

Anyway coming back to reality, he made it all up so, moot point.

it's not so vague anymore though. it is now testable. and it really wasn't completely vague anyway. rather he was describing stuff he barely understood. they didn't know lots of things about how it worked presuming the story is all true. like the thermionic converters. how did they manage that trick? how did the reactor shield the occupants from radiation? the exact linking technology that coupled the electromagnetic systems to the strong field; how did that work? how would the strong force modification into a graviton configuration be accomplished in detail. the amplifier technology what was its operating principles? they or at least Bob did not know that stuff.

and not to beat a dead horse (beat! Beat! Beat!) but if he "made it all up" as you say how is it that his lie is true according to research by respectable modern scientists? surely if he made it up then that would not turn out to be real science then? if your claim is a fact then you have to have some insight into how a lie can turn out to be so true?

crazyewok

stormbringer1701


which scientist would know this at the time and how would they know it?

Why would Lazor know?

If he could know another scientist could have worked it out. They do alot of R&D in partical weapons and directed energy. Someone could have sumbled on it but not able to publish official in scientific journals due to the nature of what it was linked too. But the information could have been deemed worthless enough to give to Lazor as part of his story to give it some "crediability".

CIA mole fits alot better than alien tec guy.

edit on 22-1-2014 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

worthless? a technology that at the very least does the following?

a. makes access to space as easy as powering up a toaster when it costs 20 million for even a small satellite launch?

b. makes atomic bombs look like harmless baby fireworks in comparison and does nto require the resources of a nation to produce?

c. makes relativistic and perhaps FTL travel possible?

d. allows one to put any object of virtually any shape and mass into space?

e. means gravity free manufacturing on earth?

f. means travel to anywhere on the earth in a few minutes?

g. a revolution in all forms of transportation and construction?

h. trivial uses for zero g recreation and sports?

look; it is not only not worthless it is the most incredibly dangerous and disruptive technology ever conceived. its peaceful use would completely upend the economic and political order of the world. its slightest misapplication would destroy whole cities. and in it's strongest misuse it could literally reduce the earth to dust.

a 20kg slug travelling at 1.3 percent C would generate as much destruction as three hiroshima bombs. a space ship would mass potentially 100s of thousands metric tons. the kinetic energy equation is exponential. a fair representation of what could be done with such a thing can be found on the project rho website in their infamous boom table.

it's about 1 sixth of the way down the page: www.projectrho.com...