Problem with Christianity

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Put succinctly, you exaggerate the importance of Hebrew, and old and new testament scriptures.

When proteins render a body from information, we get a two sided human (Concrete and Abstract).

Do you have any idea how complex our world is? To suggest that the Bible contains the information for all things which make up the universe, from the microscopic, quarks/atoms, to specific molecules (are all the molecules which make up our universe encoded in the Torah as well?) to cellular structures, organs, lifeforms, ecosystems, planets... Do you get how dumbed down and selective your use of physics is?

Argumentum Ad Hominem is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument. When this occurs, we know you have no reply other than incredulity. The very first verse of the Bible is the foundation of all physics. From that first verse, the entire nature of how quantum mechanics operates is outlined with perfection.

Genesis 1:1-3

In the beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER)...Let there be light (ENERGY / Wave Function).

Genesis then goes on to describe how God created mankind. We are in an image (hologram) of the above four properties of existence. Genesis 1:27 states the duality of coalescence and chirality in an image.

Genesis 1:27

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Male and Female is the East / West split of all things. Physics is built from the foundation of coalescence and chirality using the catalyst to gain union. God's word uses baptism as this catalyst of Mother (Aleph Mem), which is the Strong Waters (Hydrogen) of the first element. You stated that you had trouble understanding, so I gave you the version I thought you could understand.

Moving from the image, we have the details of the Hologram in John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

How is a hologram produced? Information is embedded on a surface and light is shined on that information to reveal the illusion of depth. With our simple holograms of 2D and 3D illusions, God's version is much more complex. A pixel is a 2D surface containing information. Your computer screen is an example. Particles can be understood today. Our metaphor is the VOXEL (Volumetric Pixel Element). Although this is a narrow definition, the particle of quantum mechanics is best understood as containing information around the entire surface. We are made of these hidden fundamental particles.

Before a particle is understood by the observer, wave function collapse takes place. I won't explain this to you, but the nature of information (WORD) and Light is the entire topic of the Bible. We are made form what is not seen.

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Faith is the ability of the observer to collapse wave function from the fifth dimensional probability state. We make a choice (Collapse wave function) from probability as a shadow into time. Time is the shadow of this changed state of our own reality by the observer. The shadow of time is our present moment. The shadow of the moment is the 3D body moving about. The 3D body casts a 2D shadow and a 2D shadow is made up of many 1D lines. This is precisely how volumetric pixels would work if we could somehow bring computer rendering into our 3D world. It's a hologram, just as the Bible suggests with the word image.

Look in a mirror. Do you think you are the image you see, or are you the one reflecting it to the mirror? If God states that we are in an image of Time/ Space and Matter / Energy, then I see science suggesting the same thing. Science is merely showing us what the Bible has said all along.

Do you want quantum entanglement? Read Matthew 18. The entire chapter is this concept. Do you want quantum tunneling? Prophecy is borrowing from the future and bringing into the past. This is the same process of the electron borrowing and paying back on different timelines. Again, we know the theories and God's word demonstrates. Scoff all you want at me, but stick to the subject and not an Argument Ad Hominem.

I have shown you just a few verses here. What I show is what science is saying today.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Put succinctly, you exaggerate the importance of Hebrew, and old and new testament scriptures.

When proteins render a body from information, we get a two sided human (Concrete and Abstract).

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

Do you know how I know you're full of $hit? You're lack of self awareness as you write; your prose is nice, it flows smoothly; but that itself presents a problem. You're in a highly emotional i.e. system 1 state of mind as you write. This prevents you from analyzing the merit, logic and coherency of your argument. It appears you're already absolutely convinced of that argument

Now, how do you suppose someone who reads your views is going to respond to such Chutzpah?

As creation rises to the next level, so can we. We are promised a new Crown (Mind) and a new Robe (Body). I, for one, look forward to the new day when shadows are removed and the cloud (Neph) is lifted.

And I suppose on that day the whole world will convert to Christianity?

Again, your arguments attack me. Try the subject. Go back to my original post and use subject specific language to show your evidence that Father (Aleph Bet) is not the DNA of the Bet Nun (House of Seed / Son). The words of Hebrew deny your argument as lacking rationality. What is most evident is that the language of Hebrew is outlining DNA from the words of shepherds and nomads. Since the words themselves deny the possibility, those words and letters have a higher source. It is evident.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by windword

 

Sin is passed on by the male. How did Mary avoid the sin nature. Please explain.

According to Romans, Sin "entered" the world through one man." Not that sin is passed on through sperm.

"A bad tree can't put forth good fruit." Mary wasn't without sin, so she couldn't have put forth a sin free child.

Why did Jesus need to be baptized?
P
"For the wages of sin is death...."

Jesus died, Jesus sinned.

Matt 7:15
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits."

This passage is refering to recognition of false prophets. It has nothing to do with any form of human reproductive process. Eve was the first to sin, but Adam's subservience to Eve's request to eat of the fruit put a cursre on Adam. He also sinned, but through Adam sin entered the world...meaning anything with a human father would be a sin nature carrier.

Jesus' baptism was to recieve the Holy Spirit. Thats why John the baptist said "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Mark 1:8.

Water baptism didnt represent washing away sin until after Jesus died on the cross for our sins. John the baptist baptized for repentance. A post cross believer has already repented when he believes in Christ, so it would be pointless to be baptized for repentance. Unregenerated sinners require repentance, so when Jesus was baptized, He was being identified with the sinners...being submerged in the sins of man. It forshadowed the crucifixion.

The wages of sin is death. That is why Jesus experienced two deaths on the cross. When He became sin for mankind, His spirit died, therefore He was forsaken by the Father and the Holy Spirit just the way Adam was when he fell. Then, after the sins were attoned for, Jesus experienced physical death when he said,"It is finished" and "Into your hands I comend my spirit".

Where did Jesus ever say that He wasnt good, or that He was a sinner?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

This passage is refering to recognition of false prophets. It has nothing to do with any form of human reproductive process. Eve was the first to sin, but Adam's subservience to Eve's request to eat of the fruit put a cursre on Adam. He also sinned, but through Adam sin entered the world...meaning anything with a human father would be a sin nature carrier.

Well, that's you opinion, but not scriptural. As I said, sin isn't bestowed by sperm, and Mary, not being sin free, could not have produced a sin free man. "A bad tree can't put forth good fruit."

Jesus' baptism was to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Jesus needed to be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit? That's a new one!

Thats why John the baptist said "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Mark 1:8. Water baptism didnt represent washing away sin until after Jesus died on the cross for our sins. John the baptist baptized for repentance. A post cross believer has already repented when he believes in Christ, so it would be pointless to be baptized for repentance. Unregenerated sinners require repentance, so when Jesus was baptized, He was being identified with the sinners...being submerged in the sins of man. It forshadowed the crucifixion. The wages of sin is death. That is why Jesus experienced two deaths on the cross. When He became sin for mankind, His spirit died, therefore He was forsaken by the Father and the Holy Spirit just the way Adam was when he fell. Then, after the sins were attoned for, Jesus experienced physical death when he said,"It is finished" and "Into your hands I comend my spirit".

Wow! What a bunch of leaps of faith. 2 deaths? But no sin? Okay, that's your take on it. Fine. I don't believe any of it though!

Where did Jesus ever say that He wasnt good, or that He was a sinner?

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 3:11

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Jesus NEVER claimed to be perfect and without sin whatsoever. He was tempted in the desert, wasn't he? Temptation in and of itself, according to Jesus' own words, is sin.

Matthew 5:27

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

So the forbidden fruit killed their spirit as quickly as it opened their eyes, resulting in genetic corruption of inevitable mortality.

"In that day" does not mean that Eve had already "died" (according to your interpretation) before the fruit was handed to Adam to eat.
And to remind potential readers what the question was: whether Adam was more guilty than Eve over the "forbidden fruit" affair in Genesis.
Paul said that she was more to blame, though it was Adam's failure that Paul attributed to the "entrance of sin and death" into the world.

Dreply to post by windword

"‘Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.’ This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. So Jesus again said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.’" John 10:1-11, 14-16

The man that aproached Jesus was trying to seek salvation by good works. So Jesus leveled with him. Only God is good. Jesus was the Son of God, the Lamb of God, and the King of the Jews (by His own admission). The first King of Israel was God. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. So by calling God the only good one, Jesus was calling Himself God and good. If the man had realized that Jesus was the messiah, he would have understood. The above passage shows Jesus refering to Himself as the GOOD Shepard.

Temptation is not sin. Eve was tempted to sin, but the point of sin didnt occur until she ate the fruit. Looking at someone with lust is a mental attitude sin. Just because you see an attractive person doesnt mean you have to sin.

Jesus sat and ate with sinners to teach the gospel. You cant lead sinners to salvation if you avoid them at every turn.

These passages are clear when taken in context. You have taken them out of context and distorted their true meaning.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

So the forbidden fruit killed their spirit as quickly as it opened their eyes, resulting in genetic corruption of inevitable mortality.

"In that day" does not mean that Eve had already "died" (according to your interpretation) before the fruit was handed to Adam to eat.
And to remind potential readers what the question was: whether Adam was more guilty than Eve over the "forbidden fruit" affair in Genesis.
Paul said that she was more to blame, though it was Adam's failure that Paul attributed to the "entrance of sin and death" into the world.

The hebrew Genesis says "...in that day, dying ye shall surely die", meaning two deaths. Eating the fruit immediatly killed the spirit, but body and soul is still alive. Without the Spirit, the body will eventually fail and be subject to physical death.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Only God is good. Jesus was the Son of God, the Lamb of God, and the King of the Jews (by His own admission). The first King of Israel was God. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. So by calling God the only good one, Jesus was calling Himself God and good.

Nope. Jesus was appalled that the man fell on knees and worshiped him as God. Jesus never claimed to be God, or particularly good, or without sin. Like I said, Mary was not without sin, so Jesus couldn't have been without sin. A Bad tree..........

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God..

Temptation is not sin. Eve was tempted to sin, but the point of sin didnt occur until she ate the fruit. Looking at someone with lust is a mental attitude sin. Just because you see an attractive person doesnt mean you have to sin.

Not according to Jesus. Jesus made it clear that thought crimes, (temptation) are a sin.

Jesus sat and ate with sinners to teach the gospel. You cant lead sinners to salvation if you avoid them at every turn.

That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Jesus himself admitted to being a glutton and a winebibber. When he said "But wisdom is justified of her children.", he meant, in my opinion, we live and we learn.

reply to post by windword


Matt 11:
16 "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

If you would read the entire passage, you would realize that you have taken it out of context. Drinking is not drunkenness any more than eating is gluttony. Jesus was showing how the Pharisees took things out of context. John the baptist followed a strict died and didnt drink at all, and the Pharisees demonized him. Jesus ate and drank moderately with the sinners, and they called Him a drunken glutton. Looks like the only thing you have learned from the scriptures is how to be a Pharisee.

Jesus did not say that visually seeing an attractive person was a sin, but that lusting after that person in thought is a sin. Can you look at an attractive person without commiting mental adultery? If you cant, then you have poor self control. Temptation is not a choice therefore temptation is not a sin.

You are just wrong. If you are going to quote scripture, dont take it out of context.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but Im just letting know, based on your poorely executed citations of scripture, you are WRONG.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

The hebrew Genesis says "...in that day, dying ye shall surely die", meaning two deaths. Eating the fruit immediately killed the spirit, but body and soul is still alive. Without the Spirit, the body will eventually fail and be subject to physical death.

You don't seem to know much about Hebrew.
In the Hebrew, and also in the Septuagint Greek, it says, "by dying you will die".
It is not talking about two "deaths".
And I am sure that the writers of Genesis did not share your views on the "spirit".
As far as I am concerned, the verse could be translated to say "from that day" as easily as "on that day".
The Hebrew is even more ambiguous on that than the Greek, where all you have is the word "day" along with a preposition that seems more connected to the act of eating than to the day.
The first clause, not to eat of it, is the command, and the second clause explains why you should follow the command, that there are dire consequences to disobeying it. The repetition of the cognizant is to emphasize the surety of those consequences.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

The man that approached Jesus was trying to seek salvation by good works. So Jesus leveled with him. Only God is good. Jesus was the Son of God, the Lamb of God, and the King of the Jews (by His own admission).

This would have been a test by Jesus of the sincerity of the supplicant.
By calling Jesus "good" he was in a way acknowledging his divinity, where he could command laws with the authority of God, and if Jesus gave him a commandment, he would do it as if God had told him to Himself.
The problem was that the person pretending to be such a faithful devotee did not live up to the personality that was presented by words alone.
It would be a parable, where the Jews were "rich" in their knowledge of God, (at least in their own estimation) but kept the kingdom built around that knowledge to themselves in safekeeping with a wall around it, to keep out those not of their own private club. They pretend to be so obedient to God but ignore when God tells them to share their wealth with the world.

Jesus sat and ate with sinners to teach the gospel. You cant lead sinners to salvation if you avoid them at every turn.

They were not literally sinners. That was a term of the Pharisees used to describe anyone who did not do what they told them to. They thought that their righteousness was bringing the Messiah, and those not as righteous as themselves were "sinners" who were preventing the coming of the Messiah (read The Wisdom of Solomon).

reply to post by jmdewey60


"17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good -- except God alone.

19 You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" 20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. "

This man kneeled to Jesus, yet called Him teacher, so he wasnt worshiping Him. Jesus cleaverly told Him what to do and revealed the true problem. If you can follow the Law of God without one slip up, you can go to heaven. But you cant. This was evident in the fact thath the man broke the most important commandment: to love God with all your heart and soul. When Jesus told him so give his riches to the poore and follow Him, the man cried. Jesus answered the question honestly. 'For eternal life, follow me.' Money was more important to that man, money was mor important to him than God was. Jesus did not deny His goodness or His divinity. Instead, He addressed the real problem. "If you dont believe I am God, why do yo call me good. You should know that only God is good, so you should know that I am God, so follow me!"

Jesus is the way to eternal life.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Mark 10
51 “What do you want me to do for you?” Jesus asked him.

The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.”

52 “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Jesus felt so disrespected by being called teacher (rabbi), he healed this man's sight on account of his faith!

Jesus did not consider being called teacher disrespectful. If so, he wouldn't have healed this mans sight.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Jesus ate and drank moderately with the sinners,

How do you know that?

Jesus did not say that visually seeing an attractive person was a sin, but that lusting after that person in thought is a sin. Can you look at an attractive person without commiting mental adultery? If you cant, then you have poor self control. Temptation is not a choice therefore temptation is not a sin.

Thought crimes are sins according to Jesus. No way around it.

Jesus was tempted, therefore he sinned. Jesus said that he wasn't "good,"

Jesus was just a man, not God, and he wasn't perfect, he came from tainted flesh just like the rest of us.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

The hebrew Genesis says "...in that day, dying ye shall surely die", meaning two deaths. Eating the fruit immediately killed the spirit, but body and soul is still alive. Without the Spirit, the body will eventually fail and be subject to physical death.

You don't seem to know much about Hebrew.
In the Hebrew, and also in the Septuagint Greek, it says, "by dying you will die".
It is not talking about two "deaths".
And I am sure that the writers of Genesis did not share your views on the "spirit".
As far as I am concerned, the verse could be translated to say "from that day" as easily as "on that day".
The Hebrew is even more ambiguous on that than the Greek, where all you have is the word "day" along with a preposition that seems more connected to the act of eating than to the day.
The first clause, not to eat of it, is the command, and the second clause explains why you should follow the command, that there are dire consequences to disobeying it. The repetition of the cognizant is to emphasize the surety of those consequences.

You are right in that the Hebrew language uses doubling of verbs to emphasize the action. But, the penalty of sin is death. Adam lived 930 years outside of the garden, so first his spirit died as a result of the sin, and his body died due to genetic corruption. We are all born sinners, so we are born with dead spirits. If this was not the case, then Jesus would not have said that you have to be born again.

Further more, look at the last ressurection aka the second death. These people are condemed to hell. How can they die a second time? Spiritual death results in separation from God, therefore the second death of the last ressurection is eternal separation from God.

Ok Windword and 3nl1ght3n3d1, if Jesus isnt the way (even though He said He is), then what is? Tell me "Good Teachers", how do I inheret eternal life?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


What makes you think that you don't already have it?

reply to post by windword


Well, existance is eternal whether spent in heaven or hell. Im just curious as to what your opinion is. If you dont believe Jesus died for our sins, then how do we get to heaven?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I don't believe in hell. But if you believe that things either get better, heaven, or worse, hell, in the afterlife, then live your life with integrity. Be the same on the inside as you are on the outside, strive for empathy and honesty, and do what you believe is right.

God isn't separated from us, that's an illusion. All things return to the source. Call it judgement or just a good talk with God, we all return home, before we go out and wander and explore creation again. There is no urgency,. All in gods time.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

If you can follow the Law of God without one slip up, you can go to heaven. But you cant.

Evidently you have been infected with the Free Grace cult rhetoric on righteousness which is preventing you from seeing what it is really saying, twisting it to support unsupportable man-made theories on faith and salvation.
Jesus is not talking about "slip-ups", he is talking about the situation he was in where here was supposedly his flock, all prepared to enter into the kingdom but not recognizing the true gate (himself) and the call of God to accept him as the shepherd to lead them.
So instead of them becoming the beacon to the nations as they were supposed to be in the Messianic reign, they became a hindrance, trying to maintain what they already had, as if that was sufficient for them, and loosing sight of the enrichment awaiting them as a reward to faithfulness in their mission (if they had chosen to accept it).
The "sorrowfulness" was how the Jews felt after their city and temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.