Is new age feminism getting out of hand?

Originally posted by djr33222
No facts exist to prove women or men are inferior, equal, or superior. It really isn't about facts. I see women as inferior because nature has made them so, not God and not man. I see this expressed whenever I open my eyes to experience the world. Don't get mad at me get mad at the person in charge, who or whatever that is.

Actually, facts are everything when you're making a statement such as “women are inferior.” Seeing as you have no evidence to back it up, I can safely assume your argument holds no water, so there's no need for me to get mad, just to feel sorry for you.

And I could be wrong. Like I said before, the well from which I draw to perceive the world may be poisoned. I have made all the necessary caveats for individuals such as yourself who might get offended before I put my opinions out there. I really don't even feel like I should respond to your rebuttal because I feel you are getting overly agitated and I just want to have a civil discussion...

You're right – I dont like your opinion but I respect your right to have it.

The Russians lost more soldiers than any other nation. The entire war rested on the Russians being able to slaughter as many Germans as possible at Stalingrad and Leningrad. So while however many millions of them were walking into machine gun fire, getting into face-to-face skirmishes, and experiencing 99% of the collective brutality and suffering a few women were snipers. Snipers weren't even very respected then.

But that shouldn’t take away from the FACT that they had women snipers, on the front lines. Im aware that many men died BUT women and children died to, as is what happens in war/conflict.

No, its not. You are assuming that women made up ALL the civilian casualties. Besides, civilian casualties are externalities of war like I said. I was speaking of actual fighting between men and not women and children civilians sitting at home and being killed by a mortar round.

No I wasnt assuming, its common knowledge that men up to the age of 40 were being shipped off abroad to fight, much of the people left at home were women and children. And to be fair, you cant speak of fatalities of war and exclude the millions of civilian deaths – That's disrespectful.

So you saying no one was fighting the middle east? Over 8000 coalition troops died making war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can be pedantic all you want by calling it an occupation but when I see two hostile groups in the same place killing one another as best they can I call it war. When the US fires missiles at schools and hospitals to kill innocent civilians I say they are making war.

They took over Iraq in two frigging weeks, hardly a war going on there. They're fighting men in mud huts and calling it a war for god's sake. Its an occupation and young soldiers are dying to make empires for rich men, Why should I feel sorry for people silly enough to believe their protecting their country?

I want to see everyone empowered, happy, and self-actualized.

I agree, I would also like to see the same thing. I guess we have different versions of what that means.

That's perfectly fine. It is surely a noble sentiment you feel that way. I feel like the entire history of mankind is one of perpetual strife and warfare. In the bible Cain, the first true human offspring, was a murderer. God himself genocided the entire human race and had to struggle to keep from doing it again. What was the first thing Noah, the only human worth saving, did after the Flood? He got drunk.

Not a fan of religion, I think humanity would have always been better without it.

If you don't believe that biblical stuff consider all ground breaking science and innovation has always been used first to manufacture weapons of warfare. Even though cavemen had to contend with predatory animals and the elements of nature they still made sure to kill one another with crude stone spearheads. You think war is stupid and I think that it is pretty much the way things are, have always been, and will always continue to be. Like it or not war has shown itself to be all-encompassing in this world and not just a mistake.

No I think war is engineered, especially over the past 1000 years. Are people born bad? I believe the majority are raised in such a way, a very small percent born evil. There is just no need to continue killing one another, I dont mean to sound like a hippy liberal but people need to love more and hate less.

reply to post by djr33222

Penis envy is an unconscious desire.

No its not. Im sure many men would love to believe such a thing because it empowers their masculinity while taking away from women – Majority of women dont want a wang, We have something equally empowering.

That is the entire point of psychosexual unconscious complexes. They don't know the ultimate motivation underlying their actions or where those mysterious energies come from. If I hypnotized you and brought in a psychoanalyst to work on you I bet you would be surprised at the result.

Look ive had my counselling and ive discovered all about myself, more than happy with the body ive been gifted so I dont need a psychoanalyst

Biology is the fact but not the purpose. It is more of a metaphysical reality about the maturity process of women. Every ancient society has said the same thing: to be a women you must hit puberty, but to be a man you must venture off into the wilderness to find your manhood through actions. All these early societies have said the source of femininity is the womb while the source of manhood is the spirit.

But you'll notice that the majority of ancient people making those conclusions were men, which makes those conclusions biased. Being a women or a man is a subjective term and I think the lines for defining both are very blurred in the modern age, suppose that's just down to transition. I dont believe the opposite sexes should be allowed to judge what makes one a “man” or “women” - People have to be empowered and decide for themselves.

Not all men are created equal. Neither are all women. Some of the most enlightening ideas I have ever come across were words written by Joyce Carol Oates. She is vastly more competent then all her male counterparts. However, she as a woman can only ever be the best social critic and keenest observer. She will never be at the innermost source of creation and reality. This is not because men are subjugating her or because God thinks her lesser. It is because nature has made her a certain way.

I disagree, I think everyone was created equal. Its the way we have set up societies that makes things unequal.

It is more stable than it has ever been. We have order, laws, technology, are largely impervious to the natural elements and predatory animals, inoculated to disease, have vast amounts of information available to everyone, we are no longer tribal lawless nomadic peoples. If you think the world is not stable you have never opened a history book.

The world is on the brink of financial collapse, how many years did humanity have the threat of nuclear war hanging over them? And still, countries are waging war against one another, that is starting to irritate other countries, seem to be building up for a very large world conflict. Millions still starving, dying because they can get access to basic human needs – Clean water, sanitary conditions, food, shelter. Despite the past, I would not call the current world stable.

Anyhow, I have enjoyed replying to your posts (Im surprised) I do like a civil debate I will admit.

King regards,

Search Lights

The real question we should be addressing is not who the superior gender is but which gender is better suited for having the dominant role of running the world, which optimises humanities chances of surviving and evolving well into future.

Originally posted by Thundersmurf

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
The oppression card seems to be used quite often in this thread, but rarely examined. For those of you claiming that the lack of achievements by and progress of women is due to patriarchy and male oppression, I encourage you to answer the following questions:

1) Why have women allowed themselves to be dominated by men for thousands of years?

2) Why did it take women so long to rise up in a collective voice and push for social change?

3) Why do women rely on gender quotas to succeed in the fields that men tend to excel in, but men do not rely on the same in areas women tend to excel in?

edit on 30/7/2013 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

Excellent points, my friend; especially the third. I doubt anyone will answer you though due to the answer not tying in with the "men oppress women" regime.

Am I the only one that thinks there should be different coloured stars in this thread; blue or pink depending on given gender? I'd be curious to see who's starring what.

You're right, How would you react if ATS decided that men's star's would show up pink? Would you start a thread about feeling emasculated over a colour?

reply to post by mahatche






Men that are comfortable in themselves and their 'masculinity' will never be intimidated

by any feminist/woman.

We all have a place in this world ... and it should be an equal place

reply to post by the sloth





I notice she's speaking 'in the kitchen' can't take a woman speaking in the kitchen

seriously

Originally posted by Schillinger
Women usually realize, single, infertile and alone at around 40 that "Feminism" doesn't help much. As a man, I refuse to put up with it. I'd rather have a happy, loving relationship with a foreign woman than put up with the "I want, I deserve, I hate all men" bull crap.

That's just a myth peddled to put down women. You know what the term spinster is dont you? Men have been emotionally blackmailing women for a LONNNGGG time mate.

Keep thinking it's your "right" to abort your kid, hate men, and end up alone. I'll go find a REAL woman.

It is OUR right to abort children. YOU dont get to say differently because its not your body so be a good little boy and BACK OFF. No one tells you what can and cant do with your genitals.

Also, must be a slap to the fact of your logic when feminist women do settle down with men and breed, I hope it makes you sick

reply to post by eletheia


"Women that are comfortable in themselves and their 'femininity' will never be intimidated

by any masculinity/men."

See how ridiculous that sounds when you switch the sexes around?

We all have a place in this world ... and it should be an equal place

We all have a place in this world, but that does not mean we are all equal.

reply to post by AthlonSavage





AGREE

And how is it going to be decided which gender it is to be?

Man? Woman? Feminist?

reply to post by eletheia

And how is it going to be decided which gender it is to be?

The ones which support open relationships

I see that my earlier questions have not been addressed yet. I wonder why? Are the answers too painful for some to bear?

Extremists of ALL types are detrimental to the cause they claim to support.

I stand firmly for equality. I stand for a women's right to do the same things men have a right to do: what they are capable of.

I stand firmly against what the militant feminists have perverted their 'cause' into, as it no longer has anything to do with equality.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by eletheia

 

"Women that are comfortable in themselves and their 'femininity' will never be intimidated

by any masculinity/men."

See how ridiculous that sounds when you switch the sexes around?

We all have a place in this world ... and it should be an equal place

We all have a place in this world, but that does not mean we are all equal.

edit on 31/7/2013 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

The thread is about feminist women not feminine women there is a difference

so not so ridiculous? in that light...

The operative word in the other phrase was should which you left out


What a difference a word can make!!

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
The oppression card seems to be used quite often in this thread, but rarely examined. For those of you claiming that the lack of achievements by and progress of women is due to patriarchy and male oppression, I encourage you to answer the following questions:

1) Why have women allowed themselves to be dominated by men for thousands of years?

Decided to take note of your whining and give you an answer to your not so point proving questions.

1) Im sure for a time it was easier for women to co-operate with men for the basic need to survive, but this im not advocating that men did all the hunting and women stayed at home, there is actual evidence to suggest that Pre-historical tribes had much more egalitarian societies, in which people were not judged on their gender but their ability.

However, as societies evolved so did the way we lived. When agriculture arrived roles changed, people had to operate differently to survive, so again, women would do their bit.

Then religion arrives, convinces everyone that there is a man in the clouds and he's got a set of rules for everyone, women buying into that for fear of being killed allowed themselves to be subjugated by religions. As religion took hold and men got used to treating women as second class citizens, women lost their foothold as being equal. They were relegated by societies, used as baby factories, housekeepers etc Failure to comply with your "natural" role could result in destitution or death. Now, seeing as women were relegated to unimportant they were denied a proper role in society, No education, not paid equally for equal work and this continued for too long. So i would argue that up until the 19th/20th century women were just surviving for the sake of surviving. But that brings me to your next silly question.

2) Why did it take women so long to rise up in a collective voice and push for social change?

Well, we got into the industrial age and suddenly things had changed again. Men and women were working side by side in the mills - But women were getting paid less. Women were being denied opportunities to move up the ladder due to their sex. Education was being brought in to educate both boys and girls and yet only boys could progress onto higher education - women couldn't. So pointless sexism became very apparent and come the end the 1800's, thanks to better communications, women began to get together and demand their equal footing in a country they helped build. They called themselves the suffragettes - But men who opposed their right to be equal dubbed them "feminists" in a way to belittle them. Now, the struggle's came in waves. Little victories such as having the right to vote, maintain your property after you got married so that your husband couldn't make you financially redundant. Getting a legal identity. Simple things. In the next few waves they overcame financial barriers - Women not allowed to open a bank account without her husbands knowledge/permission, Not allowed to have a mortgage despite financial situation, equal pay for equal work, being able to actually file for divorce (Something men could always do but women couldnt)

3) Why do women rely on gender quotas to succeed in the fields that men tend to excel in, but men do not rely on the same in areas women tend to excel in?

The answer to that question is very simple, Men excel in those fields because its always been accepted that men go into those fields, such as science. Women have used gender quotas in order to break the "boy's club" mantra, because at the end of the day, the best brains should be in science and we shouldn't be being biased because some men have got something against working with women. Had men been oppressed from the same opportunities they would use the same tactics in order to open doors for themselves.

History has shown numerous times that just because you're smart enough and qualified doesn't mean you'll get the position you want due to your gender, race, religious belief. Barriers have had to be ripped down and i don't think feminists should apologise for that.

reply to post by Dark Ghost





#1 Why have women allowed themselves to be dominated by men for thousands of years

Answer ... I don't know I've only been around since the mid 1900's


#2 Why did it take women so long to rise up in a collective voice and push for social change

Answer ... same as the above answer! and as you agree there was a need to

PUSH for social change ... that should never have been necessary


#3 Why do women rely on gender quotas to succeed in the fields that men tend to excel

in but men do not rely on the same areas as women tend to excel in

Answer ... I wasn't aware that they did!! a couple of instances that I personally know of

*A cousin of mine at uni was the only female in the engineering class and SHE

came out with the highest marks doing far better than her fellow male students

*My daughter did various computer courses over a period of time and her tutor would

often say that SHE was the best man in his class

A feminists greatest delight is to bring a man to his knees and make him squirm at her knees like a obedient frightened slave.

Ohrgeheho...

Everyone fighting when we should be working together as equals to make the future for our children better.
It is about respect, I respect humanity, we are all human beings, without either one of the sexes the other sex would be bloody miserable and we would die off as a specie.
So continue squabbling between yourselves and keep the divisions alive and well.
Many here from both sexes need to look in the mirror in this thread.
We are one, we are humans and together we can strive for the stars.
Humanity for the win.

reply to post by AthlonSavage


Yeah good luck!. Men are not designed to be submissive unless magically our testosterone turns into a estrogen fest.


Best cooks in the world are males not females. Females just got that job because they stay at home.

reply to post by boymonkey74


The problem is crying victim when everyone in 2013 have equal chance at education and advancements, and females even have the justice system by the B@lls, yet still screaming for equal rights?

Heck sure, get whatever you want, as long the the standard for both male and female should be the same, not subsidizing!

Or when women fight to fix the messed up justice system, then maybe we will give them support.

*lets have sex"
*Ooops i'm pregnant*
*screw your life or not?, while keep reminding you that they have the sole decision*

I grew up around the first wave feminism, the Simone de Beauvoir type, that were out of this world cool and they actually did take a stand and make a difference using their reasoning skills and knowing how men work. Now the feminist are trying to fight men on their level which is the stupidest thing they can do, all they're doing is isolated themselves and leading unsatisfying lives full of anger and hurt as the male population in general could care less. The requirement for membership in this new feminist front requires woman to dress as if they live in a theocratic government of the middle east, repress sexual experiences and desire for the opposite sex, or find some castrated male that enjoys the act of being castrated publically and privately over and over. The best part is the pseudo intellectualism of this movement, everything is fixed through communism of the Hegelian nightmare. One has to wonder just who railroaded this movement, once of freeing woman from men's tyranny and replacing it with a self tyranny that resembles a mullah in Iran.