When is killing a newborn acceptable?

Originally posted by Pistoche
reply to post by queenofswords

 

I completely agree with you, but for argument's sake suppose that you go back in time and are presented with an opportunity to kill baby Hitler, would you take it or let the infant be? Assume that you know for certain he will carry out the same terrifying deeds of our world from the 1930s and 40s.

Assuming that you are not omniscient of all possible futures, but only the know the future as it has happened in our present timeline (this is of course, knowing all of this from the vantage point of the time of Hitler's birth).....Then I'd be too afraid of the unknown consequences of such an action. There are far too many variables to consider.

Sure you might end up ensuring that Hitler doesn't start WWII....But who's to say that someone else might rise to the task in Hitler's absence....Perhaps someone who is even more evil, and more capable of destruction than Hitler. Perhaps this other person, may be more of a military genius than Hitler.....ensuring that the Nazi's win WWII.
.....

Taking someone as influential as Hitler out of our timeline would cause a myriad of unknown consequences. Even though you'd have the best intentions, you might inadvertently cause a more horrifying world than the one you'd be trying to prevent.

reply to post by tetra50


No that is why I specifically said "without a doubt as a fact" I didn't leave the possibility for wiggle room there.

Either you kill the kid and prevent massive deaths and destruction that the kid will cause or you don't.

If you don't there is no changing its future it will happen.

Since I am posting this after another poster who brought up god I will use that. Personally I am not a believer however lets just say God told you what would happen and gave you the choice. So the info is irrefutable.

No one would ever be able to tell who and what child would end up doing this, and even if you had a vision, please know that negatives like to drive people to do crazy things. And there is no government technology you could ever trust.

You simply are not the judge of anyone, especially someone who has not committed a crime.

Many people come to earth in karmic relationships. ie, your father could have been your murderer a few lifetimes ago. In fact, read Dolores Cannon for her clients have shared just those things.

A child is not their parent, nor even the same kind of soul. And the chances of 2 siblings having the same genetics is astronomical. But genes don't make murderers.

Some children come to this world to help their parents, or help those who could make train wrecks of their lives.

The list goes on and on. Every single soul is precious beyond anything you can imagine.

I wouldn't even pull the trigger on Hitler. Tackle him, bear spray him and knock him out and put him in jail. You bet. But if you kill you become the dark side.

That doesnt get someone back home. And you can't justify any reason to harm unless it is immediate in your face self defense. Not retaliation, immediate self defense.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Personally I am not a believer however lets just say God told you what would happen and gave you the choice. So the info is irrefutable.

This makes as much sense as a lesbian using a dildo.

reply to post by Unity_99


Look this is a mental exercise with specific boudaries that no one seems to be able to follow.

These are questions you are to assume to be true there is no wiggle room.

Either you let the kid live and many others will die or you take the kids life preventing those deaths.

No one seems to be able to answer the question without changing the context.

It is a lose lose situation which will you chose.

Originally posted by TheomExperience

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Personally I am not a believer however lets just say God told you what would happen and gave you the choice. So the info is irrefutable.

This makes as much sense as a lesbian using a dildo.

Its an attempt to make others understand the exercise. It sets precidence for the authority of information given and that is all. Don't read into it.

BTW you think lesbians don't? Never mind it isn't worth the side convo.

Originally posted by tetra50
Look, we have PLENTY of evidence that our perceptions and events are preconceived and played out and outwardly influenced.....

Sure, but that's not part of the discussion. this is fantasy thinking, but it does have relevant merit on society. Kill the baby before it grows up and becomes a threat.
pre-emptive strike on some nation before it becomes a threat
Stop a movement in its infancy before it becomes a threat
etc..this is a graphic question about something done a hundred times over that we accept as the norm. Its philosophy, it is a question of thinking and pondering in order to identfify parts of ourselves..not back out of thinking by simply waving your hands in the air and say its impossible, you refuse to think about the question posed.

The rest of your comment I removed due to it being sort of weird, all over the map, and not making sense..transhumanism, movements, etc etc etc...nothing to do with the thread...or like anything that comes to mind. But I will comment on one thing you may want to consider:

Sorry, I find this an objectionable thread. When I commented this on a thread, yesterday, the OP just said turn the thread off like a TV channel, don't read.

So yesterday you found and commented on a thread you found objectionable...today you found and commented on a thread you found objectionable.
Is it your hobby to find things and choose to be offended verses just move on?

We have a beach in florida..a nudist beach. you had to drive out basically in the middle of nowhere, park, then walk a couple miles by beach only in order to arrive there.
"familys" went there purposefully to get offended and call officials to get the beach shut down. Seems for the hundreds upon hundreds of miles of coastland in florida, they needed to hike to that specific spot to get offended. Lot of work trying to get offended...but probably more enjoyable to just stop at a nearby beach instead and not worry whats going on far away from you...or in your case, why not just pass over threads you will no doubt get offended by....Do what you want, but you might want to ask yourself..do you enjoy being offended? What do you get from it?

reply to post by Grimpachi


This is an absolute. There is zero wiggle room. The child is not a murderer. You cannot harm them period. Or you become hitler. It doesnt matter what you think he could do, or the government thinks he could do, it wouldn't matter if you thought God told you he would do something. Even if he did harm someone, years later, you could never harm the child.

And if a child murders they're not responsible.

Savvy?

Anything else is pure evil and psychopathy.

People who want realms like can do their best to go to hellzones, there are many out there after death. But they're not going to bring earth there.

Originally posted by Seektruthalways1
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

So if the person is going to kill someone and that is wrong, then how do we kill them is justified as right? ...

Your only changing who dies,

You and your daughter are walking down the street. You stop for a second, she keeps going.
You look back to see your daughter. a man is coming at her with a knife, pulling back the knife and obviously going to stab her

you got a gun in your pocket...what do you do?

So...if the person is going to kill someone and that is wrong, then how do we kill them is justified as right? I believe you asked.
now you can ask yourself why you just emptied the clip into that person to save your daughters life.

hypotheticals..aren't they fun.
But hey, it answered your question, didn't it.

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Originally posted by TheomExperience

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Personally I am not a believer however lets just say God told you what would happen and gave you the choice. So the info is irrefutable.

This makes as much sense as a lesbian using a dildo.

Its an attempt to make others understand the exercise. It sets precidence for the authority of information given and that is all. Don't read into it.

edit on 27-7-2013 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Ok it is a habit of mine to read into everything. You know, to get the brain juices flowing.
I will admit its hard to put the thoughts onto this particular "track" of thinking since it feels so full of inconsistencies.

You can't even go back in time to murder a destroyer of worlds as a child. You don't murder children. You'd have to stop the person in the action of committing the murder or harm or destroying the world.

This is true for all people, even CIA, FBI, national security, every single person on earth and in the cosmos, in existence anywhere.

And to all black ops. You don't get off the hook by claiming its your job or you're following orders. You don't get to follow bad orders, even if it risks your life.

reply to post by SaturnFX


HAHAHAHA Playlinda Beach

My wife and I went there once...NEVER again. not what we expected. SURF NAKED woohooo!!! Surf wax sticks to ______hair.


Anyway good thread great mental exercise but I am really disappointed with how no one will answer without changing the premise.

Originally posted by Unity_99
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

This is an absolute. There is zero wiggle room. The child is not a murderer.

Well, nobody is a murderer until they murder of course.
But must you wait for a crime to be fully committed before you take action?

Its dark, but isn't allowing a monster to go on in the world darker?

If HG Wells popped on over and gave you keys to his time machine, would you even want it? temptation, darkness, arguably such a device would be like the one ring from lord of the rings...even in a desire to do good, it would twist you into something dark.
Perhaps its best we never have such tech even if it was possible.

reply to post by Unity_99


Well that's fine but in this exercise millions now die for your conscious savvy... You are just as responcible for those deaths as well because you could have prevented them... why?? Because you knew it would happen.

Either choice sucks there isn't a good one to make but people make those choices every day.

Usually it is weighed by the good of the many over the good of the few.

Does the firefighter save the baby in one room or the dozens of people trapt in another room? It is always a hard decision but people make them.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by tetra50
Look, we have PLENTY of evidence that our perceptions and events are preconceived and played out and outwardly influenced.....

Sure, but that's not part of the discussion. this is fantasy thinking, but it does have relevant merit on society. Kill the baby before it grows up and becomes a threat.
pre-emptive strike on some nation before it becomes a threat
Stop a movement in its infancy before it becomes a threat
etc..this is a graphic question about something done a hundred times over that we accept as the norm. Its philosophy, it is a question of thinking and pondering in order to identfify parts of ourselves..not back out of thinking by simply waving your hands in the air and say its impossible, you refuse to think about the question posed.

The rest of your comment I removed due to it being sort of weird, all over the map, and not making sense..transhumanism, movements, etc etc etc...nothing to do with the thread...or like anything that comes to mind. But I will comment on one thing you may want to consider:

Sorry, I find this an objectionable thread. When I commented this on a thread, yesterday, the OP just said turn the thread off like a TV channel, don't read.

So yesterday you found and commented on a thread you found objectionable...today you found and commented on a thread you found objectionable.
Is it your hobby to find things and choose to be offended verses just move on?

We have a beach in florida..a nudist beach. you had to drive out basically in the middle of nowhere, park, then walk a couple miles by beach only in order to arrive there.
"familys" went there purposefully to get offended and call officials to get the beach shut down. Seems for the hundreds upon hundreds of miles of coastland in florida, they needed to hike to that specific spot to get offended. Lot of work trying to get offended...but probably more enjoyable to just stop at a nearby beach instead and not worry whats going on far away from you...or in your case, why not just pass over threads you will no doubt get offended by....Do what you want, but you might want to ask yourself..do you enjoy being offended? What do you get from it?

Dude you removed the "intellectual" part of my response to you, so you could attack me on the stupidest grounds. Sorry, wrong girl. Screw who you want, be naked anywhere if you want, I couldn't care less about that, I enjoy some of that myself. Let's not get confused....
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT KILLING A HELPLESS INFANT AND ASSUMING YOU KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THAT INFANT WILL CAUSE IN THE FUTURE AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING A BABY.

Sorry,dude, I come down on this issue the same way every time. You don't really know. That's the point. You don't know jeffrey dahmer, or hitler anymore than I do.....and jeffrey dahmer, in the multiverse, could have been a savior, if you accept the common view of what the multiverse IS and MEANS....

so, to me, your thread, requires a specific judgment not POSSIBLE, and in fact, what I joined a website like this to rail against the judgements of science and politics and society....to meet and answer your definitions and disseminations and judgements here....


As I said, earlier, it amazes me, frequently, intellectually, that we propose to be fighting against that in that fight WE BECOME the perfect example of.....I find this thread to be a perfect example of that proposition.

No offfense. But this is how I see it/......How can you know? When you were a baby, and enough people told me you were Hitler reincarnated, what would you expect or want me to do? Would you trust their interpretation of who you were, at that point? REALLY?? And on that basis, I find this thread and question, totally suspect.in logic and judgment, never mind me being a mother....
Tetra50

Please, if you are going to comment, I have included lots of logic there. Concentrate on that, as you asked in your OP, not the emotion.

reply to post by SaturnFX


If it is the son of devil himself then I would be alright with it. Other then that murder is murder.

Short answer:

it is never acceptable to kill an innocent infant.......

It even goes further. Not only are you never ever ever to harm anyone, no matter what your job, in any universe in existence, but you also may not set rules or laws to deprive people of land, resources, or food, or put stipulations on them.

All have equal rights to land and food and resources and are not your slaves. You don't own them. And anyone who treats anyone as a slave, or deprives them of their right to live and flourish, is a MURDER, TORTURER.

And they're going to go through everything they put others through, not only from literal harm but all the joy lost, all their talents undiscovered, in depth, with feeling.

So lets hope they're not some corporate or banking elite or leader who has harmed many people, because you go through all of it, and that would be a hard trip in the abyss, which is really in your mind, the long way home. Don't harm. Bottom line.

Originally posted by tetra50
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT KILLING A HELPLESS INFANT AND ASSUMING YOU KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THAT INFANT WILL CAUSE IN THE FUTURE AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING A BABY.

Sorry,dude, I come down on this issue the same way every time. You don't really know. That's the point.

No, I do know...see, I posted it in the ops..therefore that's the structure, the rules. I didn't mention multiverses or anything else...this universe, this example, 100%...not sure why your not understanding this.
And btw, caps means your yelling. I know what I am talking about, no need to shout..its right in the title actually.

so, to me, your thread, requires a specific judgment not POSSIBLE, and in fact, what I joined a website like this to rail against the judgements of science and politics and society....to meet and answer your definitions and disseminations and judgements here....

Let me ask you a question to address something here. When you were asked if you could be any animal on the earth for a day, what would it be...did you simply say dolphin, or flip out because its impossible, you can't answer that because of the impossibility of it, the multiverse would prevent your dolphin transformation, etc...
Its philosophy, not engineering. If you don't want to answer the question, you don't have to. If your answer is no, you wouldn't...that's fine. would be nice to know why you let a murderer go free to do the things they are going to do...or if yes, how you can kill a innocent before it becomes a monster...etc. But to try to derail the thread raging on how impossible it is (as addressed in ops), its not really furthering the discussion,
and worst off, you denying the whole soul searching bit of the question is robbing you of maybe learning something about yourself.

No offfense. But this is how I see it/......How can you know?

I wrote the question..therefore I know.
If I play dungeons and dragons, and the dungeonmaster says there is a goblin in the next room, I don't ask him how he knows...I prep for the goblin...because its his world he created, therefore he knows. this is my question / thread I created, the rules in ops are set..no use in demanding the dungeonmaster doesn't know what is in the next room so to speak.

Perhaps reread the ops..especially the last bit (under the minority report statement)

Please, if you are going to comment, I have included lots of logic there. Concentrate on that, as you asked in your OP, not the emotion.

What you wrote previously is fine, but not part of this thread. it is a interesting convo mind you, but detracts from the point of this question. This is not about transhumanism or anything else..it is a simple mind exercise to see if you can make a pre-emptive strike...if its ever justified.

Thanks for participating, but now try to answer the question as posed (if you want, no demand) and not bend any rules...100%, no changing it, no other universe consideration..just as is...this is more self discovery than anything else.
Incidently, for me...I couldn't. I can see value in it...and at one point I could have for one person, but not now. Why? hell..I donno...weak maybe. can't kill something that =looks= innocent.

Originally posted by SubTruth
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

If it is the son of devil himself then I would be alright with it.

Other then that murder is murder.

What did the devil ever do to deserve his son being murdered at infancy?

(show me scripture..go on then )