Woman Education in Islam

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
I have answered FF in a general statement, i am not going to respond to each case as the answer is the same.

You have not answered. So .. on topic ... address these facts about womens education in Iran and how Islam is effecting it in a negative way ... -

UNICEF - Education of Girls in Iran

All family members are expected to do what they can to bring home income, and this means children are often taken out of school. Girls must do the household chores and look after younger siblings while boys run errands and do odd jobs to earn money.

As a result of isolation and poverty, many communities view education as a luxury and cultural attitudes towards women mean that more girls than boys are denied an education

Girls here are not just disadvantaged by a lack of education. Old traditions mean that many of them face the prospect of early marriage (marriage for 12-year-old girls is common and they are powerless to refuse). Once married, their chances of an education decrease even more as their husbands are usually unwilling to let them leave the house unescorted and want them to concentrate on running their new households.

"Opening up education to girls in Iran’s poorest province" this is the title of UNICEF article.
it is about the farthest points of a province called Sistan and Baluchistan. this province has a border with the the neighbor country, Afghanistan and Pakistan. those tribes have the same attitudes and patriarchal viewpoints like the Afghanistan parts. but on one side a government is trying to overcome these problems while on the other side Taliban explodes girls' school up !
governments have a great responsibility. and this is why most of the people of middle east are oppressed and they have been kept back. because they do not have the right government and of course the role of wars, ignorance and colonialism is not ignorable.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by maes2

 

for example usury is forbidden in Islam and maybe in Christianity. this is not just a personal teaching. it means that if a country bases it's economical system on healthy banking and funding, this can be more improved than a banking based on usury and based on money not on production and farming.

By the way, I TOTALLY agree on the corruption that is rampant in "usury". It has become the cancer of the West.

I thank you for your attention too. regardless of wherever we are or whatever we believe in, some of our major problems are alike. and usury is not just a problem in west but east and even those countries who claim they are Islamic !

reply to post by wildtimes

and refusing to address the REALITY that the "ideology" of Islam as YOU see it, is NOT the way MOST Muslims in the Middle East and Asia actually behave.

i have acknowledged the reality and i am asking you, can you make FF agree to what you said above?
Maybe then we can go further.
The difference between "Ideology" which is amazing and what some muslims do which i equally condemn.
I hope you don't think that i support any kind of wrongs or injustices done to any beings of any gender or age.
My OP shows a time when Islam was followed as it should be and a women founded a university. Is it reasonable to suggest that if Islam is followed the same way then the problems that are affecting to muslims will also be solved?
I am not saying that just as wishful thinking, i am saying that because i know how Islamic principles tackle the problems from the roots rather than providing superficial solutions that itself creates problems.
A lot of muslim youths worldwide are aware of it and so are demanding a more Islamic system, socially and economically.

You are watching a change happen and sure their is turmoil and chaos in a lot of places.
Majority muslim countries are just emerging from the shackles of colonialism and/or puppet governments. Do you think its fair to throw questions and demand answers for low literacy rate?
The colonialists didnt just leave peacefully, they had implemented policies for their convinience and encouraged divides based on nationalism, tribalism, religion(in India) etc to make it easy to rule. Do you think these can be reversed so quickly or easily?
Do you think these divides are not being widened by opportunistic powers to forward their agendas?

I don't want to blame anyone. I actually say that the muslims are fools to fall for these dirty tricks when Allah warned them against it in the Qur'an. Well they don't really read Qur'an anymore anyway so how would they know it.
The ones who understand it are asking them to go back to Qur'an and Islam to get united as a Ummah but then you find that a bit scary.

So the basic problem here is that you question the problems in the muslim world but are not really happy with the solutions that the muslims know will work for them!

Also do you think there are no other players with selfish interested that conflict the making of a United muslim Ummah? And they won't do whatever is necessary not to let it happen?
They are not as selfless as you are.

Islam is not a threat to the Western people. Islam however is a threat to oppressive power hungry governments and corporations and banks that thrive on the misery of people and Islam has an alternative way to solve it all so the Western people are fed hatred against Islam.

You yourself are used to a system and skeptical or even scared of the Islamic system.
I hope you acknowledge that muslims have the right to implement the system of their choice and live by it and please don't insult muslims and their understanding by saying that the system is backward, obsolete etc etc
The problems mentioned by FF stem from the reasons i put above.
In short you see the muslim world at a stage that is similar to the pre enlightment era in the West, just the demands are reverse and that maybe baffles you

reply to post by wildtimes


maes2,
this will be a 'sensitive' question....and (of course) you are free to refrain from answering, or even to report me to the mods....
but.
BUT...
what do YOU think about logical7's "arguments" for Islam?

You seem a very rational and approachable person. I do appreciate your willingness to discuss (more than I can say for him!)......

~w

reply to post by logical7


Can I "make her"? No, I can't "make" anyone do anything.

I posted my last to maes because I did not expect you to participate further in this (your) thread.

Allow me, if you will, some time to digest what you have written to me. Please. And I will get back to you.

reply to post by logical7

I hope you don't think that i support any kind of wrongs or injustices done to any beings of any gender or age.

No. I don't think that you support any kind of wrongs or injustices. I've never thought that.
I do think, however, that you are ignoring the root causes when you make these threads. your culture is very much involved in the 'world chaos.' Just as much as the Obama Admin is involved.

I DON'T APPROVE OF ANY OF IT.

But....
log7,

THANK YOU, for being willing to discuss it once more, rather than writing me off as "your enemy."

reply to post by wildtimes


As a MUslim and from my studies i can conclude that they are not any real islamic countries in the world, because they make up their own rule regulations rather then what Prophet MUhammad (PBUH) has taught.
To go against sunnah (teaching ofd the prophet is to actually go agaisnt islam)
In Quran Allah (swa) TELLS MANKIND, if a person kills a innocent human being it as if he killed all of human kind.
This is why the taliban is wrong. They are a huge oppressive gang that preys on the fears of the people.
Lets say democracy is all about the majority's chocice but a president who says he supports democarcy starts dictating the world solely on point instead of the majority it is no longer a democracy same way if the muslim countries start contrdicting the teachings they are no longer a muslim country.
WHILE A MUSLIM IS COMITTING A SIN SUCH AS MURDER, RAPE, BACKBITING,HE NOT A BELIEVER.
So those who claim they are Muslim are not believers.
If they repent and stop doing what the wrongs they are doing then In Sha Allah,(If God is Willing)

Originally posted by logical7
My OP shows a time when Islam was followed as it should be and a women founded a university.

No. Your opening post propaganda was an attempt to slap the face of the West. You tried to make it seem like Islam = Good for womens education and the West = Bad for womens education. You failed.

Islam is not a threat to the Western people.

Taqiyya and Kitman. Sharia is a threat to ALL people.

- Women in Iran are blocked from obtaining degrees in high paying fields ... for religious reasons.
- Women in Saudi Arabia are blocked from driving themselves anywhere ... for religious reasons.
- Women in Kuwait are forced to marry rapists ... for religious reasons.
- Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt denounces 'no violence against women' ... for religious reasons.
- Girls schools are blown up every day around the world ... for religious reasons.
- Christians are not allowed to bring rosaries or bibles into Saudi Arabia .. for religious reasons.
- Restrictions against Christians building new churches in Egypt .. for religious reasons.
- Restrictions against Christians building new churches in Indonesia ... for religious reasons.
- Conversion to other faiths from Islam is forbidden .. and punishable by death.
- Kuwait clerics declare building Christian churches in Muslim Countries must be forbidden
- Women not allowed to leave the home without a male escort. Prisoners in their homes.
- SEVERE punishments for minor crimes ... chopping off the hands of children who steal, thus leaving them crippled for life for a minor crime.
- Death threats for political cartoons.
- Morals police roaming the streets beating women who aren't 'muslim enough'.

And all that spreading .. creeping Sharia.
Muslim Brotherhood Declares World Mastership as Ultimate Goal
Not just the Muslim brotherhood .. but others around the world (like you) who want Sharia in non-muslim countries. This mentality is a threat to everyone in a civilized society.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Can I "make her"? No, I can't "make" anyone do anything.

I posted my last to maes because I did not expect you to participate further in this (your) thread.

Allow me, if you will, some time to digest what you have written to me. Please. And I will get back to you.

sure you cannot make her do anything, maybe you can clearly disagree with her in the point i mentioned and on which you and i agree.
It is very much required to separate Islamic ideology and muslim behaviour just as its vital to separate Western values and Western governments' action.
FF percieves Islam and Muslims just as an extremist percieves the West, so she is as right as the extremist! I have been accused of it but maybe its simply that i have limited patience and when its boils over i just start responding negatively. I clearly know the distictions.

Sure take your time and try and zoom out and see the whole picture.

Btw i never wrote you down as my enemy
i just felt its useless to put anymore effort into putting my view to you just so you judge them wrongly.
We both wish the same things just the approach and beliefs are different.

And I finally got around to debunking the opening post anti-western propaganda picture ...


UNIVERSITY - An educational institution designed for instruction, examination, or both, of students in many branches of advanced learning, conferring...

10 Universities - A.D.
As you all can see ... there were universities around the world well before the 1800s.
The propaganda picture provided by logical failed to show this.
And Fatima al Fihriyya didn't start the first university.
There have been universities for thousands of years all over the world.
They taught everything .. math, science, art, philosophy .... everything ....
Ancient Universities

At this time, what is believed to be the first university (with lecture halls and students from other places migrating to attend) is Takshashila University which was Hindu and dates most likely to 750 B.C. Students from all around the old world would go to learn sciences and medicine as well as the arts and philosophy.

Nalanda University is more famous and dates to the 400's AD. Also Hindu. Students went to this university from all over the world. As with the first university of Takshashila, science and medicine and art and philosophy were taught. This university was open for 600 years.

The Summerians had higher learning from 3500 - 1750 BC. It is thought that scribes and architects and astronomers attended classes in science and math because the Summerians were far advanced in astronomy and math. The first schools of higher learning have been confirmed from at least 2600 AD.

Wikipedia - Sumer

The Sumerians developed a complex system of metrology c. 4000 BC. This metrology advanced resulting in the creation of arithmetic, geometry, and algebra. From c. 2600 BC onwards, the Sumerians wrote multiplication tables on clay tablets and dealt with geometrical exercises and division problems. The earliest traces of the Babylonian numerals also date back to this period.[36] The period c. 2700–2300 BC saw the first appearance of the abacus, and a table of successive columns which delimited the successive orders of magnitude of their sexagesimal number system.[37] The Sumerians were the first to use a place value numeral system. There is also anecdotal evidence the Sumerians may have used a type of slide rule in astronomical calculations. They were the first to find the area of a triangle and the volume of a cube.

Schools in Egypt started around 3,000 B.C. Most of the learning was for scribes. Egyptians valued writing and scribes very highly so they focused on that. There were many trade schools in ancient Egypt in addition to the schools for scribes and math. Mostly boys went to school. But sometimes the girls would as well. As for 'higher learning' ... (these are from thousands of years B.C.)

In the Middle Kingdom the first indication of a house of instruction appears, on the tomb of Kheti, a nomarch at Asyut. He urges every scribe and every scholar who has been to school to behave properly when passing his monument ad to speak an offering formula for the deceased. The writer of the so-called Satire of the Trades in the 12th Dynasty brought his son to the school for scribes at "the Residence" of the King near el-Lisht. The author, named Khety, gives himself no rank. Perhaps he was a common man who found a place for his son at this elite school.

During the New Kingdom there were at least two schools in Thebes, one in the Mut Temple, the other at the back of the Ramesseum. There may have been a third near the Valley of Deir el-Medina, where the children of workmen were taught.

Schooling in China really formally got going during the Han Dynasty. School would be from 6am to 4pm with no weekends off. The first 'higher learning' university was in 124 B.C. As with Egypt, the focus was on writing and philosophy.

So .. the first university wasn't founded by Fatima al Fihriyya in Morocco in 841.
Not even close.

reply to post by logical7


Address the issues. YOU set the theme of this thread. Womens education in Islam.
So address the issues I presented. You can start with Iran barring women from being
able to get degrees in higher paying fields (math, science, engineering) because of
religious reasons. Start with that one ....

How exactly is Islam being helpful to women in education .. and how is Islam better for women in education than the west .. when this is happening in Iran. And they ARE doing it for religious reasons .... because of their interpretation of Islam.

YOU set the topic of the thread. Address that issue.

Originally posted by logical7
i just felt its useless to put anymore effort into putting my view to you just so you judge them wrongly.

Dude .. YOU opened a thread on a chat forum and your opening post praised Islams treatment of women in education and dis'd the wests treatment of women in education. When you do that on a chat forum .. you are going to get responses and those responses are going to demand that you back up your statement. You have failed to back up what you posted. You run away from the truthful facts presented that you don't like. That's not us 'judging your views wrongly' ... that's you FAILING to back up your statement with facts.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Wow, thanks so much! Very informative, good info. It's such a travesty that in modern times, universal education (which I think most EVERYONE who is educated supports) has not been achieved It's perhaps the BIGGEST shortcoming of humanity.

Fatima may have started the first MUSLIM university, but most definitely NOT the first university ever.

Seems clear to me that both religion AND education are very volatile human 'systems' that have become "tools" of oppression. I will NOT EVER say "it's God's punishment", because it's a self-inflicted wound - the obvious reason is that it allows the FEW to control and deprive the many.

Only PEOPLE can make things better.

Islam has some very serious problems, and at this point in time, so does the West, but at least in the West education IS WIDELY AVAILABLE - and that must be the starting point for Islam and other developing countries as well. EDUCATION is paramount to the survival and forward movement of the human race. When education is withheld from the populace - or misinformation or unbalanced info is provided, only stagnation and strife can result.

In places where education is MANIPULATED and becomes, instead, BRAINWASHING, things go terribly wrong as well.

I honestly feel we could all live without religion - but no one who interacts with modern society can achieve much of anything WITHOUT AN EDUCATION.

Thank you, FF, for providing these facts.

Okay, here's what I think. This thread imploded on itself. Why?

Because of the WAY IN WHICH IT WAS PRESENTED. It is painfully clear that an offensive OP was the intention - to make Islam "look better than" the West. Just like Sk0rpion stupidly suggested to "just tell them about their own faults" - that is the LAMEST, most IMMATURE method EVER to try to establish communication.

What logical7 did was make an inflammatory OP, with nary a comment - and expected ....... what?

What exactly did you expect, logical7? You finally made yourself clear, in your post explaining that you DO understand the modern problems.

I wonder if you have the gumption now to think this over, and explain to us what YOU have learned via this thread - about communication, diplomacy, and approaching sensitive issues. That would show real courage.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
muslim men "know their place" too,

Yes .. the statistics show that Muslim men in Sharia-Law countries think their 'place' is to control and abuse women. And that 'allah' gives them permission to do so.

a woman is free to choose.

Women in Sharia Law ... can NOT choose many things ...
- they are forced to marry their rapists.
- they have to deal with their schools being burned down and their teachers and fellow students murdered.
- they are sold off by their families to be 'married' when they are 12-15 years old, to men decades older.

Women according to sharia law have no need to worry about food, clothing and shelter and they are free to focus on more better things, whatever they choose, education, family, motherhood etc.

:shk: The statistics provided show that your statement is delusion. Just more taqiyya.

Women suffering under Sharia Law have to worry about being beaten ... worry about being forced to marry their rapists ... worry about not getting a fair deal in a court of law ... worry about not being able to get places because no man will 'escort' them there ... worry about being accused of adultry if they are raped .. worry about their family members killing them in an 'honor killing' ... worry about being killed or raped or beaten if they decide they don't buy into the fiction of Islam ... worry about not being able to get an education because the schools are burned down and the teachers are murdered ...

We aren't buying what you are trying to sell.
We are better educated than that.

you and your BUBBLE!

If you call this as being educated then i pity it.
Deluded would be a better term.
What you say may have some truths and facts about how some muslims treat women.
What interpretations you make from it are just your prejudices and double standards.
Well everyone is free to delude themselves including you.
You just parrot out the same things again and again and are not ready to discuss anything. Not a sign of an educated mind!
Continue to sprinkle the thread with you rigid but wrong views..

This is as far as I read and I have to add this. Everything FlyerFan states, is backed up with plenty of examples and FACTS but the answers are just opinions. I know who makes a better case but she is a woman...

FlyerFan, I always wanted to pat you on your shoulder for your eloquent and intelligent posts. Now is the time!

I will continue reading but what the pro-islam males have to sayn here is just hot air,very cringe-worthy and quite embarressing to say the least.

reply to post by logical7

So the basic problem here is that you question the problems in the muslim world but are not really happy with the solutions that the muslims know will work for them!

Then the problem seems to be:

SHARIA LAW.

Stoning, maiming, honor-killings, etc. ARE BARBARIC. Those may have been "acceptable" punishments in the ancient world, but they ARE NOT acceptable today. It's unacceptable that prisoners are held without charges and tortured as well.

What SCARES me is that people like you are in the tiny minority, and if this "caliphate" or any unified "Ummah" WERE to gain control, it is glaringly obvious that those cruel, savage, barbaric practices would be installed.

What person in their right mind would welcome barbarians into their place? Would accept such an INHUMANE legal system with those kind of punishments???????

NO ONE. Only ignorant peasants, and brutal monsters, think that type of "jurisprudence" is in ANY WAY acceptable in this stage of our (dying) civilization.

reply to post by FlyersFan

How exactly is Islam being helpful to women in education .. and how is Islam better for women in education than the west .. when this is happening in Iran. And they ARE doing it for religious reasons .... because of their interpretation of Islam. YOU set the topic of the thread. Address that issue.

my OP had a very simple line of thought, the need for education of women was recognised much earlier in Islam and its a God given Right to both Women and Men.
The west realised it almost 1000years later.
That was the time when Islam was followed as it should have been and so saying Islam is responsible for the lack of education of women does not make sense

the Qur'an and the Hadiths are the same, just the people have changed and stopped implementing real Islamic teachings and drifted to a cultural version of the religion and imbibed/continued some wrong and even anti-islamic practices.

What Iran did, i cannot say much on that, maybe someone from Iran can address it properly.
I can however say that if they have restricted women from certain high paying degrees, they have approached a problem with a very narrow minded way, the problem must be unemployment or less percentage of men entering those fields and they still have the mentality that a man is the earning member who will provide for a whole family and so its bettes if he gets those degrees.
I don't agree with it. I don't even know what was the reason behind it.
Rulers have for ages given justifications by using religion and God to help their odd policies be accepted by the masses.
So will you be so naive to gobble up any of the excuses rulers give and believe them as true?

reply to post by wildtimes

Stoning, maiming, honor-killings, etc. ARE BARBARIC.

a question to test your islamic knowledge.
Which of the above is not a part of Sharia law?

let me also tell you how it appears to muslims when you equate the whole Sharia with stoning & maiming!

Its like saying that you don't agree with the US constitution because it has capital punishment for treason(i don't know if it does, just assume and see the point) which is BARBARIC!!

The time when sharia was practiced during the Islamic Golden age. Even the Jews called it as their Golden time as they had complete religious freedom and security and that age has produced some of their best scholars.
I understand that you feel scared but should muslims not do whats best for them? Or do things in a less effective way to not hurt the wrong perceptions of the Western people?

reply to post by logical7


You have an interesting point of view however misguided it may be... I will comment on one issue from your last reply...

Men need women and women need men.
A child needs both parents to develop into a healthy individual especially psychologically.

This issue has been debated for years in my country... And its simply not true in the least...

A child needs ONE good parent to develop normally... In fact, many children turn out better when they're raised by one good parent instead of two bad, or one good and one bad. When a child has parents that are always fighting... the psychological issues arise.

IF a child has a great mother... and a father that is selfish or irresponsible... The mother resents her husband, which rubs off on the child IF she is the main parent in the situation... the roles are also reversed IF a child has a great Father, and a selfish irresponsible mother... The child grows up resenting the lack of love given by the so called "bad parent"... I've seen these situations evolve all my life... And I will tell you from personal experience... ONE good parent is more then enough for a child to have proper development in his/her life...

Heres another example... I grew up without a Father... My mom took on both the mother and Father role... and there was nothing that any Father could have done better then my mother.... NOTHING!

The result?

I am much "softer" then most guys... I am extremely sensitive unlike ALL of my friends who were raised with a Father... Which does lead me to overcompensate sometimes when other males are around... despite that fact I AM your typical Alpha male aside from the lack of respect for females you'll usually find in that type of guy...

And I am far more psychologically stable then anyone I know... and I dare anyone to challenge that... (theres that Alpha male thing shining through )

Perhaps one might say im a freak of nature..... but NOOOO.... I have several friends just like me... raised without a Father... and have no issues in their lives because of it.... in fact many of my former friends that were raised with a mother and father are in Jail RIGHT NOW... Yet none of my friends who were raised by a single parent have issues with their lives... and most were raised by their mother, and a couple were raised by their Father...

Im sorry brother... but a lot of your preconceived notions your religion tells you are lies...

:shk:

reply to post by Akragon

You have an interesting point of view however misguided it may be...

you judge my point of view based on yours my view could be misguided only if yours is really true.
These things are so subjective that we shouldn't even go there.

This issue has been debated for years
in my country... And its simply not true
in the least...

the issue has been debated because it has come up. It has come up because the society drifted towards a certain way. Are you telling me that it has been debated first and proved to be better and then people started following it
i have one word for you RATIONALISATION.

You mentioned all bad examples of parents in comparison to a single good parent. You missed two good parents and the arguement that finding one good parents is more likely that two good ones can be made however you also missed the possibility of one bad single parent, that would be a disaster. Right?

Your personal examples are too specific to generalise that all single parent kids turn out to be great. With all respect, its just not true.
And my point that people have to become single parent due to circumstances and not a free choice still stands..
They can later rationalise it that their choice was great but thats because humans have a tendency to seek approval even if its self-approval and when the whole society has agreed to follow a certain way then there is enough approval to make the way look fine.
Someone from the society is not the best to be taken as objective about it' especially when this personally affects him/her.