Woman Education in Islam

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Yep, I saw it! I've read all the posts in the thread.

What's happening in Egypt AGAIN is due to the oppression imposed by the "Muslim Brotherhood." Egyptians are sick of it. I'd venture to say that the entire world is sick of the Muslim crap going on. Including the Muslims!

edit on 28-7-2013 by wildtimes because: not repression - Oppression

well this is a little naive. it is a complicated battle. which surely colonialists are one side of that.
I do not ignore that Islam is a foreigner even among muslims. but
Islam = a perfect ideology which it's purpose is to reach materialistic improvements even far more than Capitalism and Communism and of course accompanied with spiritual improvements and based on spirituality and monotheism.
a muslim society should be at end of science, spirituality, ethics, technology, wealth, justice ........
so a true muslim society is an utopia. and most of muslims want to be more improved than east and west. because they may know that their ideology deserves it.

Originally posted by logical7
I am just saying that muslim women don't need to study because they must provide for themselves and that needs a good job. They can study when they want to and as much as they want to or choose to just get married.

Not in Iran. Did you see the information I posted? Women are now blocked from dozens of high-end college degrees. They no longer are allowed to take the math or science or engineering courses. The reason? The men in charge say that smart women won't marry men who aren't as well educated as them, so the women shouldn't be educated to the point that they can support themselves. They should stay home and have babies.

You still have failed to comment on this.
You still have failed to comment on all the girls schools being burned down.
You still have failed to comment on all the teachers and students being murdered.
Address the issue.

Originally posted by logical7
stoning is only for adulterers who cheat on their spouses and choose to destroy two families for their selfish individualism

BARBARIC .. no matter the 'reason'.

reply to post by Akragon

So what of births out of wedlock... would that women be treated the same as one who had a child while married?

births out of wedlock is not considered normal in Islam. It happens in a male dominant society where men can just get what they desire without the consideration of what the woman would have to go through and the feminist have played right into their hands by declaring that they don't need marriage or social approval and protection by a namesake thing called marriage.
A feminist however is a higher than average educated and well to do woman while the ones who suffer from these feminist ideas are the less educated and dependent women.
If a revolution benefits only a specific section of women then shame on so called feminists for lying that they represent all women and their demands.
The needs of the lowest economical section of women are much different and unless they are reached there can be no social justice. Islam targets these women's needs first not an unrealistic idea that women don't need men! I am also not saying all women think like that but that idea does effect many to various degrees.
Men need women and women need men.
A child needs both parents to develop into a healthy individual especially psychologically.

For the specific question, an unmarried mother would face disapproval and worst if his male relatives are sick egotistical bastards thinking they are muslims
the solution would be that she marries the guy. Now if you ask what if she doesn't want to and i'l say if he is not good enough to marry, how was he good enough to go flying duck? Thats not the way a muslimah behaves, its western "values" based on individualism and glorification and abuse of woman's sexuality to the extent that now women like it.
Muslim women don't want it.
Liberation of mind is more important and liberation of body is counter productive to it.
Quran says, "have you seen the who has taken his desires as god, do you think you can help him?"
a lot of the ways of the west leads to this slavery of desires, not all do it but the ways sure facilitate it rather than check it.
Islam has a system that acknowledges human "needs" and channels them in socially approved ways to protect the society and spirituality of muslims.

Originally posted by logical7
Islam has a system that acknowledges human "needs" and channels them in socially approved ways to protect the society and spirituality of muslims.

That's a load of bunk. ADDRESS THE ISSUES PRESENTED.
Issues that show your statement to be false.

Address the FACT that Iran is blocking women from getting higher degrees.
Address the FACT that Muslims are burning down girls schools every day.
Address the FACT that Muslims are killing teachers and girl students who dare go to school.
Address the FACT that Kuwait is forcing rape victims to marry rapists.
Address the FACT that the Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt, etc) is as well.
Address the FACT that 'morals police' in some Islamic countries beat and harrass women who aren't 'acting muslim enough' or aren't 'dressing muslim enough'.
Address the FACT that the Islamic countries rejected a 'no violence against women' statement because, in their words, 'no-violence against women' runs counter to Islam.
Address the FACT that many of these Muslim girls are married off as young as 12 - 15 years old to men who are decades older than they are and that their education is then blocked.
Address the FACT that one in six women in Saudi Arabia is abused.
Address the FACT about the Imams calling men to abuse their wives.
Address the FACT about the Imams calling on men to rape women.
Address the FACT about the low literacy rates in many Islamic countries.
Address the FACT that many women are prisoners in their own homes .. not able to leave without a man escorting them. (absurd!)

Don't throw a bunch of religious rhetoric blanket statements around about how much Muslim men supposedly 'respect' or 'care' about women. The FACTS say that many, many do not. The FACTS show that Islam isn't the female-utopia that you try to make it out to be. Address the facts. Admit that Islam isn't any better than any other group when it comes to human rights or women's rights.

You have been avoiding addressing the very issues that your opening post subject brought up.
Stop hiding. Address the issues and facts honestly .. without a pile of nonsensical religious rhetoric.

reply to post by maes2


maes,
I appreciate your gentility in your response to my remark.

Islam = a perfect ideology

IF Islam were a "perfect ideology", there would not be so much unrest amongst Muslims. You seem to acknowledge that, and I appreciate it..

Did you notice Dr Engineer's remark that I highlighted yellow on the previous page?

Not all the problems of the modern times have answers in the Qur'an and Hadith.

I've heard the statement that it's a "perfect" system from others as well. The facts belie the claim. If it were "perfect", there would not be so much division and conflict. Ever since the death of Muhammed there has been a rift, based on who was his successor. That's been going on for 1400 YEARS, and the Shi'ites and Sunnis STILL haven't resolved it. If Islam were "perfect" there would have been no conflict with "who was his successor" - (and that doesn't even address the abrogation of previous "revelations" by later ones - such as it being acceptable to lie to non-Muslims, etc.)

I wonder, actually, if they (the ones fighting each other) even know why they are enemies. It would seem that all they "know" is that "we hate ............". In your opinion, do you feel that most of the violence is more "it's just what we do" (hate Jews, hate Sunni, hate Shi'ia, hate the West).....or that the people acting out the violence actually KNOW why there is friction?

As long as there are oppressive and violent people like the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. (pick any faction you like), Islam will not be "perfect." It's people are divided, seemingly HOPELESSLY divided. No one is free in a place that thrives on violence and hatred.

reply to post by logical7

An unmarried woman being pregnant is not a proof that she committed fornication under Sharia.

What?!!!

You've got to be kidding - or do Muslims not know how babies are made? OF COURSE it's PROOF - she was either raped, or consented to engage in sex with a man. You can't possibly be saying that virgins can become pregnant... I thought you were a man of science?

Mary was engaged to Joseph when she became pregnant. It was allowed for the engaged to have sex. Period. Joseph was his father. I know that many, many Christians will disagree with me on this, but I've studied enough to be well-convinced that she was legally impregnated by her fiance.

Most modern liberal theologians have generally rejected the virgin birth. They regard it as a religious myth that was added to Christian belief in the late first century CE and was partly based on a Greek mistranslation of the book of Isaiah from the original Hebrew.

Its purpose was to make Christianity more competitive with contemporary Pagan religions in the Mediterranean region, most of whom featured their founder having being born of a virgin.

Without the claim of a virgin birth, it is unclear whether Christianity would have been able to compete with Mithraism and other Pagan religions in the Roman Empire; it might not have survived.

Source

reply to post by FlyersFan

Admit that Islam isn't any better than any other group when it comes to human rights or women's rights. You have been avoiding addressing the very issues that your opening post subject brought up. Stop hiding. Address the issues and facts honestly .. without a pile of nonsensical religious rhetoric.

i wonder why you spend so much energy in typing the same things post after post!
I have addressed you long back about the scattered individual cases you bring up and then judge Islam by it, care to follow the same standard while judging the West?
How about the US military? If i post facts after facts of the horrible things they have done and not even spared their own women soldiers, do i get to conclude like you that US military is sick and disgusting?
And the individuals their are recruited and trained, not like the muslim club that anyone born into it is just considered muslim and his actions automatically assumed to be Islamic.
I am not deflecting i am trying to make you understand what you are doing and how silly it appears to any reasonable person.
Do the worst in your society represents the majority in it?
Does a dictatorial( saudi) government represent its people? Does anyone who commits an act in the name of a religion causes the religion to be judged?
If so what pope urban2 did was christianity. Right?
How do you seperate the acts of christians in the past from christianity?
Why not the same standards for Islam?
and if you say that anything that you mentioned is actually allowed by Islam then you can't be more wrong.
You are free to stick to your views but Islam is not what you think or wish it to be.
Btw, that fatwa of some cleric allowing rape in syria was debunked by Babloyi long back. Please don't get carried away in the excitement to bash Islam and end up discrediting your integrity.
You want a serious discussion, lets have it, but if you just think you know better then think what you'l think of me if i came and tried to teach you christianity when i don't know it well enough
i know Islam and its Amazing. Not many follow it completely and so have the innate violence and other negative emotions in them and they come out and get tried to be justified by Islam and islamophobes pick up that trash and fling it arround.
The Islamophobes and extremists have much in common and provide the reasons to each other to continue hating and fearing.

You should thank God that Islam is not as you assume. It has been sent as a mercy to mankind to let them know how to worship God and treat each other with compassion and love.
Lets see you have given me ideas for a few more threads. Thanks

reply to post by wildtimes

Fornication means consensual sex. A woman can be raped and be pregnant and therefore she didn't 'fornicate'. However, in Kuwait, as well as the Islamic countries infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood, that rape victim will be forced to 'marry' the rapist. She and her child will be forced to live under the jackboot of a violent thug who doesn't care about them at all. That is .. unless the rape victim is convicted of adultery, in which case she'll be stoned or flogged and the rapist will get away with it. :shk:

Originally posted by logical7
i wonder why you spend so much energy in typing the same things post after post!

Because you run away and don't answer them.

I have addressed you long back

No you haven't.

about the scattered individual cases you bring up and then judge Islam by it,

One in six women abused in Saudi Arabia isn't 'scattered cases'.
At least one school burned down every day isn't 'scattered cases'.
The entire country of Kuwait rejecting 'anti violence against women' isn't 'scattered cases'.
The Muslim Brotherhood as a whole rejecting 'anti violence against women' isn't scattered cases.
The severe lack of literacy in Islamic countries isn't 'scattered cases'.
You have NOT addressed the issues. You run away from them.

care to follow the same standard while judging the West?

YOUR OPENING POST set the theme of this thread.
YOUR theme .... Islam = good education for women. West = bad education for women.
Admit your propaganda was just religious rhetoric and invalid. It has been proven.

How do you seperate the acts of christians in the past from christianity?
Why not the same standards for Islam?

We are discussing what Islam does NOW. One in six women in Saudi Arabia is abused NOW. Schools are being burned down NOW. Women are forced to marry rapists NOW. Rape victims are accused of adultery and are stoned or flogged NOW. Women in Iran are not allowed to get higher paying college degrees NOW.

You are free to stick to your views but Islam is not what you think or wish it to be.

- Lucky for me that I'm not in a Muslim country and can tell the truth about it, otherwise I'd be killed.
- And 'my view' is based on FACTS. Not on religious rhetoric.

You want a serious discussion, lets have it,

With you it's impossible. You run from the overwhelming facts and say they are just 'scatterings' when in fact the negative towards women in Islam is overwhelming.

i know Islam and its Amazing.

:shk:

ADDRESS THE FACTS .... Iranian women now barred from higher paying degrees.
Schools being burned down around the world. Girl students and teachers attacked and killed
around the world. Rape victims being forced to marry the rapists. These are not
'scattered cases'. One in six women in Saudi Arabia is abused. ADDRESS THE FACTS.

reply to post by logical7

FlyersFan keeps asking you the questions that you don't want to answer, because they need answering. And you keep NOT ANSWERING them. You cannot continue to say that Islam is "peaceful" and Muslims aren't violent misogynists, when the whole world sees the truth! Yet you have the audacity to when people bring up this unsavory fact. It is NOT "just a few random stories" - it is MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people.

The FACT is that Muslims in many countries do NOT allow their women to be educated, and all the in the world is not going to change that. You, son, are a coward.

It is no exaggeration to say that over 270m non-Muslims have been murdered over the past 1400 years. It is estimated that over 60m Christians were slaughtered in the Middle East & North Africa while half of the Hindu civilization was annihilated & 80m Hindus were murdered. It is also estimated that over 10million Buddhists have been killed. Should we then be surprised that 95% of all conflicts today involve Muslims & fighting each other?

Apparently YOU are surprised by it - even to the point of absurd denial.
...

Are all conflicts related to Arab-Israeli issues? Is Israel the Satan of the Arab world? If Islam is a peaceful religion why has history proven otherwise? Why have minorities & non-Muslims been prosecuted under Islam? We can recall how a giant 5th century Buddha at Bamiyan in Afghanistan was destroyed to bits & the world merely watched in silence!
....
Muslims killing Muslims has amounted to over 10m. In other words, over the past 60 years 90% of the Muslims killed have been killed by their own people this surely is not Islam! Why are Muslim sects so hateful of one another? What right has the Taliban to think that its ideology has t o be accepted by all others? Do they think that just by forcing women to wear black from head to toe is following Islam? Is it the dress or the mind that has to be Islamic?

What the Islamic world cannot deny is that it many follow Islam but Muslims are united in hate. As aspect that is making Islam what it is, is its close association to politics which goes hand in hand with the desire for power o f a cult/tribe. For Muslims God is the source of sovereignty even an army is God’s army. That is why the calls for Jihad means all those who are unbelievers which could even mean Muslims & non-Muslims. The first Islamic Civil War started in 656 lasting 5 years. Every time bombs go off in Pakistan it is Muslims killing Muslims, every time bombs go off in Afghanistan & Iraqit is the same story. There is no need for Western forces to attack when Muslims are attacking their own, killing tribes though they are all Muslims following Islam.

This is some food for thought!

See? Your claims are empty rhetoric based on ideology alone, and NOT on REALITY. Wake up to yourself!




Source
Yeah, keep laughing, bub. You're making a fool out of yourself. But that's your prerogative. Why you expect us to believe YOU when the web is FULL of actual FACTS, is a sign of your enormously pompous ego, and your willful ignorance of the REALITY of the Muslim world.

You didn't even have the guts to address the recommendations for education that came out of the workshop last year that was given by Dr Engineer! Guess that means you have no leg to stand on. :shk:

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

An unmarried woman being pregnant is not a proof that she committed fornication under Sharia.

What?!!!

You've got to be kidding - or do Muslims not know how babies are made? OF COURSE it's PROOF - she was either raped, or consented to engage in sex with a man. You can't possibly be saying that virgins can become pregnant...

I thought you were a man of science?

Mary was engaged to Joseph when she became pregnant. It was allowed for the engaged to have sex. Period. Joseph was his father. I know that many, many Christians will disagree with me on this, but I've studied enough to be well-convinced that she was legally impregnated by her fiance.

a punishment requires proof and witnesses of the act.
Otherwise a STD in woman claiming to be virgin is proof enough that she is lying but not enough to punish her for fornication.
Sharia does not demand bloody punishment and the principle is "innocent till proven guilty beyond doubt" and leaning towards finding excuses to let an accused go free.
People are discouraged from testifying against themselves in the court.
If a man steals and is in a sharia court, the judge asks "have you stolen?" and continues "say NO"
its not a bloodthirsty system, it just wants to discourage stealing. The threat of losing a hand is enough to discourage any sensible person not the same if the punishment was a couple of years in prison.

Mary was a Virgin and a man of science will actually be fine with it because science is a toddler right now and i know about parthogenesis. A right stimulus can make an egg divide and become a zygote and theoretically a baby ultimately.
The chances of a Virgin getting pregnant are much higher than the Universe coming out of nothing and if there is a Creator then He could have done both.
You have found an explanation that confirms you beliefs of an uninvolved Creator. It maybe as wrong as the man who thought the earth was flat and resting on the back of a turtle. But as you are an intellectual, you know you could be horribly wrong.
Absolute certainty can be reached with absolute knowledge and when you as an intellectual admit that it wouldn't happen you are bound to be uncertain in almost everything.
Science is nothing but conclusions made on repeated observations.
If i have a theory that all women have black hair based on my observations then it would be destroyed if a blond tourist passes by me.
You stating "a virgin cannot be ever pregnant" is as much a belief as me believing that it could be possible.
However i may or may not be wrong but you are certainly unreasonable and unintellectual unless you claim absolute knowledge.

reply to post by logical7


Typical. Ignore the sourced FACT that MOST modern theologians dispute the virgin birth. If Christians and Muslims want to believe the MYTH - which was just explained to you in the previous post - and sourced! - that's on them.

Parthenogenesis in humans is not "strictly" impossible - It HAS been proven, however, that myths of virgin birth long precede Christianity - and they are acknowledged as just that: Myths.

Yes, it is theoretically possible, so that means even IF Mary was a virgin, it was a process that had to do with some Biological anomaly of an extremely rare type - which means, it wasn't God.

Hey, but, your THREAD here is about EDUCATION. NOT virgin births. ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS that are EVIDENT, and stop switching topics just because you can't prove your point.

reply to post by wildtimes

FlyersFan keeps asking you the questions that you don't want to answer, because they need answering. And you keep NOT ANSWERING them. You cannot continue to say that Islam is "peaceful" and Muslims aren't violent misogynists, when the whole world sees the truth! Yet you have the audacity to when people bring up this unsavory fact. It is NOT "just a few random stories" - it is MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people. The FACT is that Muslims in many countries do NOT allow their women to be educated, and all the in the world is not going to change that. You, son, are a coward.

well i cannot be objective about my being coward or not.
I have answered FF in a general statement, i am not going to respond to each case as the answer is the same.
Is that action promoted or commanded by Islam? The answer is NO.
People married victim of rape to the rapist in the OT long before Islam came, hindus do it, so some cultures practice it and its disgusting.
If muslims do it how does that make Islam responsible for it?
If your democratically elected leaders lie and cheat, does the blame go to democracy?
The factors responsible for the FACTS that ff post are many and blaming Islam is naive over simplification and i am surprised that you buy it too. But now i don't expect much from you anyway.

reply to post by logical7

The factors responsible for the FACTS that ff post are many and blaming Islam is naive over simplification and i am surprised that you buy it too. But now i don't expect much from you anyway.

I expect from you exactly what you're doing here - drifting off topic, refusing to back up your claim, and refusing to address the REALITY that the "ideology" of Islam as YOU see it, is NOT the way MOST Muslims in the Middle East and Asia actually behave. You opened the thread with an antique propaganda ad, and left it up to your participants to look into it. We have - your OP is worthless in light of TODAY's world problems.

You never address sourced material - you just ignore it and keep claiming "scattered cases" - I "buy into it" because the sources I look at are vastly more credible than you are. I am aware of what the original Koran/Hadith says - but we are talking about NOW. You don't back up your claims - and Muslims don't practice the Koran system perfectly.

Fact. Deal with it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, at this point, my own studies of Islam (independent of your useless 'tutoring') have surpassed any that you have done. I'd guess that I've looked at probably 200 different pages on the web now - at LEAST - and dozens and dozens of various sites looking at Islam from BOTH directions.

AT LEAST you could address the very real problems as listed in Dr Engineer's report - did you even read it????
Probably not.

Originally posted by logical7
I have answered FF in a general statement, i am not going to respond to each case as the answer is the same.

You have not answered. So .. on topic ... address these facts about womens education in Iran and how Islam is effecting it in a negative way ... -

UNICEF - Education of Girls in Iran

All family members are expected to do what they can to bring home income, and this means children are often taken out of school. Girls must do the household chores and look after younger siblings while boys run errands and do odd jobs to earn money.

As a result of isolation and poverty, many communities view education as a luxury and cultural attitudes towards women mean that more girls than boys are denied an education

Girls here are not just disadvantaged by a lack of education. Old traditions mean that many of them face the prospect of early marriage (marriage for 12-year-old girls is common and they are powerless to refuse). Once married, their chances of an education decrease even more as their husbands are usually unwilling to let them leave the house unescorted and want them to concentrate on running their new households.

BBC UK - Iranian University Bans on Woman Causes Consternation

With the start of the new Iranian academic year, a raft of restrictions on courses open to female students has been introduced, raising questions about the rights of women to education in Iran - and the long-term impact such exclusions might have.

More than 30 universities have introduced new rules banning female students from almost 80 different degree courses.

These include a bewildering variety of subjects from engineering, nuclear physics and computer science, to English literature, archaeology and business.

Iran Primer - Iran Curtails Female Education

Universities are acting individually to adopt quota systems favoring men. The goal is to limit the number of women in certain disciplines or to bar them altogether from certain fields of study. Some universities are enforcing single sex classes and are requiring professors to teach the same course twice.

If muslims do it how does that make Islam responsible for it?

Hello? Because that is their interpretation of Islam. And it's not 'scattered' ... it's a very large number of people who subscribe to this. So yes ... Islam is responsible for it happening in Kuwait and throughout where the Muslim Brotherhood are in charge. . The Amish aren't responsible. The Christians aren't responsible. The Mormons aren't responsible. The Buddhists aren' responsible. It's the muslims in charge who are responsible for it and they have the backing of their religion. Islam is responsible for it.

So .. on topic ... address these facts about womens education around the world and how Islam is effecting it in a negative way ... - Schools AROUND THE WORLD are burned down. Teachers and students AROUND THE WORLD are murdered. All in the name of Islam. This isn't 'scattered'. It's everywhere. Address this.

CNN - Girls School Burned Down in Afghanistan Again
Students Murdered and Schools Burned in Afghanistan
Girls Schools Burned Down in Pakistan
Muslim Womens News .. More Schools Burned Down
Nigeria - Muslims burn down more schools and kill more teachers
Indonesia - schools burned down and people killed
Burning down a girls school in Lahore
Muslims threaten girls daily for going to school
Malala shot in the head for wanting to learn to read

Here's the OPs propaganda piece at the beginning of the thread -


I challenge the OP to prove his propaganda cartoon and intention to be accurate.
Especially in the face of these statistics ...

Muslim Statistics - Education and Employment - Broken Down by Country

Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent. ...

Nearly one in three people in the Arab world is illiterate, including nearly half of all women in the region, the Tunis-based Arab League Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (Alecso) said Monday

India - Less than 4 percent of Muslims graduate from school, compared with 6 percent of the total population.

The actual literacy rate in Pakistan is hovering around 30% while this rate is around 15% in the tribal areas and the female literacy rate in tribal areas is around 5%.

A shocking 65% of married Yemeni women aged between 15 and 24 are illiterate

Focusing in on India -

Overall (all religions together) Female Literacy Rates in India
Literacy Rate for Muslim Women in India

Even today, 59% of Muslim women have not attended school and 60% are married by the age of 17. Overall, Muslims have a literacy rate of 59.1%, 5.7 percentage points lower than the national average.

While in Haryana, one-fifth of Muslim women are literate, the figure is about one-third in Bihar and UP. In 15 states, the literacy level among Muslim women is less than 50%. Muslims register the lowest work participation rate of 31,3% and just about 14% of Muslim women are registered as workers.

Even in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, wich have high literacy rates among all communities, including Muslims, the work participation rate of Muslims is 14 percentage points lower than that Hindus

Indian Muslims and Education

But it does not mean that we cannot talk of Muslim backwardness in general because the large mass of Muslims on the whole is quite poor and illiterate. In many respects they are falling behind even the Scheduled Castes. Muslim women are particularly far more behind. For example among the Muslim women on All India level, according to the National Family Health Survey (NFHS), 66% are illiterate and in Haryana Muslim female illiteracy is universal (98%). It is interesting to note that in Haryana most of the Muslims are Meo Muslims and Meo Muslims are quite backward on the whole. Even in Assam with the highest percentage of Muslim population the female illiteracy among Muslims is 74 per cent. In the states of West Bengal, Karnataka, Delhi and Madhya Pradesh, 60 to 65 per cent and in the states of Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Gujrat, 50 to 55 per cent of Muslim women are illiterate.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by maes2

 

Did you notice Dr Engineer's remark that I highlighted yellow on the previous page?

Not all the problems of the modern times have answers in the Qur'an and Hadith.

well, if everything were in Koran and hadith then God would not create wisdom !
my perception of perfectness is that Islam have teachings which can cause improvements both in this world and the other world. materialistic and spirituality. and of course besides earth, space, social, life and formal Sciences it has another source of knowledge called prophecy.
for example usury is forbidden in Islam and maybe in Christianity. this is not just a personal teaching. it means that if a country bases it's economical system on healthy banking and funding, this can be more improved than a banking based on usury and based on money not on production and farming.
we do not have to test everything because true and pure prophecy is itself a source of knowledge. for example we do not have to test gay marriage ! some decades later we will see that this is another mistake of humanity like other mistakes.

If it were "perfect", there would not be so much division and conflict. Ever since the death of Muhammed there has been a rift, based on who was his successor. That's been going on for 1400 YEARS, and the Shi'ites and Sunnis STILL haven't resolved it. If Islam were "perfect" there would have been no conflict with "who was his successor" - (and that doesn't even address the abrogation of previous "revelations" by later ones - such as it being acceptable to lie to non-Muslims, etc.)

Koran itself declares that humanity itself is source of such divisions. according to Koran there is no difference between monotheistic religions unless Islam is considered the last version. so Koran considers Abraham, Moses, Jesus and even disciples as muslim of their own era. because they were submitted to God.
now I want to mention that democracy is inherent in Islam and of course all monotheistic religions. what you mentioned that there were different viewpoints about successor of Mohammad (PBUH) is interesting and it shows that there were some sort of democracy. did the minority overthrew the majority !? you can ask from muslims that what happened in the first years of Islam after it's prophet. were there any war which a sect waged on another ! I can not remember.
problem emerged after the terror of fourth caliph when the concept of elected caliph changed to inheritable kingdom and monarchy. monarchies like umayyad, Abbasid, Ottoman, Safavid and nowadays monarchies of middle east.
Jesus (PBUH) could not make a government because he was alone. but Mohammad (PBUH) made a government because people gathered around him. this is democracy. there is no dictatorship in monotheistic religions. will of people should be respected. they change their fate according to their own will.

I wonder, actually, if they (the ones fighting each other)
As long as there are oppressive and violent people like the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. (pick any faction you like), Islam will not be "perfect." It's people are divided, seemingly HOPELESSLY divided. No one is free in a place that thrives on violence and hatred.

edit on 29-7-2013 by wildtimes because: activate color and fix wrong word

it is sad. but it is right. so I summarize all of these in three words that I can count.
middle east has been victim of corrupted governments or better to say monarchies ( yes still middle east is full of monarchies ! ), ignorance and colonialism for many many centuries.
I myself thought that muslim brotherhood might start a democratic and islamic reform but soon they made many many mistakes. they cooperated with radicals they encouraged the internal war in Syria they played in the ground of colonialists and they became arrogant and deceived.
however I believe that coup is not the solution.
the revolution of Egypt does not have a capable leader.
Egypt may become another Syria.

reply to post by maes2


Thank you SO MUCH for expounding on how you see things. Very much appreciated - your candor and reasonable addressing of this subject.

I worry for Egypt, too.

reply to post by maes2

for example usury is forbidden in Islam and maybe in Christianity. this is not just a personal teaching. it means that if a country bases it's economical system on healthy banking and funding, this can be more improved than a banking based on usury and based on money not on production and farming.

By the way, I TOTALLY agree on the corruption that is rampant in "usury". It has become the cancer of the West.