You take America For Granted

Cargo,
I'm just glad that those "Disenchanted" American's will have someone to greet them friendly on the other side. I assume you meant disenfranchised, unless you really mean those people who were recently under a spell, and then had that spell broken..... Anyway now they'll be Canada's problem, not ours (Or any of the other countries they flock to) I say we're better off WITHOUT anyone who would actually leave the country because Bush got elected, and Canada's going to be pissed when they find that these "Disenchanted" Americans aren't what they thought they'd be.

DrHoracid,
That's a terrible example. Either you made that story up, or I'm sorry about that horrible lady because she does not represent our country. Don't generalize us because of an example like that.

IBM,
Don't let them force you to take your eye off the ball. I know your intention about the topic of the discussion wasn't roads, and they all know that too. You're right, people do take what they have for granted. The freedom we have wasn't given to us, it was earned by people who died for it. People take it for granted "Oh know, my guy didn't win so I'm going to leave this country!". Whiners, good riddance.

Originally posted by IBM

Originally posted by cargo
Ever heard of taxes?

Plus, I'm not American.

Yes the taxes paid for the roads and it has provided US with ameniteis that we take for granted. And those that are leaving, will certainly miss them Ha. Imagine the founding fathers of the US if they hear the lame excuses for leaving the US.

Imagine the founding father's reaction if they ever found out that the balance of powers that they've so carefully created within our government were at risk because of a bunch of powerful neoconservative christians have bought their why into the main seats of power!

You value the work done by those immigrants that built the railways, the construction workers that paved your road, and well you even love your Big Macs....and yet, well, the republicans seem to be telling them they their toil isn't worth the resources needed to keep them alive. If american society gets to the point where those "less valued" workers can't survive, well, what choice will they have, but to leave?

Originally posted by Herman
Cargo,
I'm just glad that those "Disenchanted" American's will have someone to greet them friendly on the other side. I assume you meant disenfranchised

Definition
disenchanted [Show phonetics]
adjective
no longer believing in the value of something, especially having learned of the problems with it:
Many voters have become disenchanted with the government.

disenchantment [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
There is (a) growing disenchantment with the way the country/school/club is being run.

I don't need to be schooled by you. You may need to be schooled by me.

I have had all of these amenities and they are nice,
I however spend about 6 months a year living where all the roads are dirt and
you have to catch pick or grow most of your own food. I actually prefer living from the land without all the amenities It is very fulfilling after about a week in the outdoors I start to wake early in the morning and goto sleep earlier at night
all without the aid of the modern world, I do occasionally miss the internet when I am out there and the ability to quickly access information etc etc, but all in all
away from the city and in the outdoors is much nicer for me..

geo

Originally posted by cargo

Definition
disenchanted [Show phonetics]
adjective
no longer believing in the value of something, especially having learned of the problems with it:
Many voters have become disenchanted with the government.

disenchantment [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
There is (a) growing disenchantment with the way the country/school/club is being run.

I don't need to be schooled by you. You may need to be schooled by me.

That's interesting. Here are the definitions I found on dictionary.com:

To free from enchantment; to deliver from the power of charms or spells; to free from fascination or delusion.

disenchanted

adj : freed from enchantment

I could be wrong, so could dictionary.com. Maybe it's different in your country?

[Edited on 10-11-2004 by Herman]

If people want to leave the US because they would genuinely prefer living in the country of their choice, because they like the culture, the weather, whatever, fine.

But if you are leaving in a frenzy to escape "The New Nazis" -- stop & think for a minute. Do some research. Where is this Utopia you hope to find where Christian Fundies don't have hundreds of special interest groups seeking to influence politics? Canada? Ha! Do your research. And you don't think the Canadian govt has their own "Patriot Act"-like laws that their citizens are complaining about? Again--do the research.

Maybe Britain & Australia are good choices--I don't know, haven't done the research. But doesn't anybody find France's banning of religious dress in schools such as headscarves a little worrying? Why isn't there a big outcry on this board about that--because it's a case where the secular humanists get what they want and those "backward religious weirdos" don't?

It's like what Dennis Miller said yesterday: he supports gay marriage, but he also thinks Christians have the right to believe what they want without being called "backward hicks." If more hardline Christians went out to vote than your fellow secular humanists, and they voted based on their own beliefs, and the candidate won by the majority of the votes: what are you complaining about? Isn't that how Democracy works? Oh, but the election was fixed again, right?

I don't see where the debate really is. If people want to leave because they see the United States as one of the most oppressive places on Earth--let them leave. Go to Canada. I'm sure Canadians will be *thrilled* to have more immigrants. Go & do the research online about Canadians & attitudes towards immigration to see just how thrilled they will be. And to sweeten the pot, not only will they have this massive influx of American immigrants--but these new citizens will be sure to flee Canada on a dime the moment any hardship arises like the "wrong" political party coming into power.

If I sound harsh, I'm sorry--but I do it out of love for the Democratic party, or what it used to be. The DNC needs a major makeover and #1 on the agenda is moving away from complaining (instead of doing), talk of civil war, bashing Christians, making smug jokes about the low IQ of those who live in the South or the Heartland, and massive conspiracy theories about Neo-Cons--and Democrats who feel the same need to band together, get vocal, get *visible*, get involved, and put the message out there to the Republicans that we are Democrats, we *love* this country, and we're here to stay.

The english language has multiple specific uses for many words, some of which may be centred around the one theme.

To enchant basically means to place value on something. In your magic faerytales an enchanted sword, for example, is one that is made of greater value by bestowing it with charm.

enchant (PLEASE) [Show phonetics]
verb [T]
to charm or please someone greatly:
The audience was clearly enchanted by her performance

enchant (MAGIC) [Show phonetics]
verb [T]
to have a magical effect on someone or something

Looking at my post again, I sounded pretty arrogant. But I guess you could have simply googled it eh? However, I can see how those leaving the US can perhaps "lose their charm" to those such as yourself.

As for this maybe being different in my country, we speak English in Australia.

Originally posted by cargo
The english language has multiple specific uses for many words, some of which may be centred around the one theme.

To enchant basically means to place value on something. In your magic faerytales an enchanted sword, for example, is one that is made of greater value by bestowing it with charm.

enchant (PLEASE) [Show phonetics]
verb [T]
to charm or please someone greatly:
The audience was clearly enchanted by her performance

enchant (MAGIC) [Show phonetics]
verb [T]
to have a magical effect on someone or something

Looking at my post again, I sounded pretty arrogant. But I guess you could have simply googled it eh? However, I can see how those leaving the US can perhaps "lose their charm" to those such as yourself.

As for this maybe being different in my country, we speak English in Australia.

I'm not arguing whether or not the word exists, but your usage of the word. I guess I could be wrong, but it still sounds foolish to me to use it in that term. The people that are leaving the united states are doing so because Kerry lost, not because they trusted Bush, then when he won the election they saw things differently. Maybe just a pet peeve of mine. I realize that you speak English in Australia, but different countries often have different dialects.

We are once again drawing attention away from the subject at hand. You're not going to like the people who leave the U.S. to go to other countries because Bush won. The only people that do that are...not the type of peopel that you want in your country. Canadians are not going to be happy when those types of Americans come into their country and immediately take advantage of all the free stuff they get.

DrHoracid,
I want to go back to your story. That was a very insulting, as well as extremely inaccurate. People insult America because we have both extremely wealthy and extremely poor people. Our country was founded on doing it ourselves without too much govt. intervention. While there are just as many lazy Americans in this country as there are people in any other country, we're not generally lazy as a culture.

If it is foolish to speak proper English, then I am a fool.

By the way, I just take it that Horacid seems to attract those types. And doesn't know any different. Don't dwell on it, he may come home one day and find that she has 2 tickets to Chicago to "watch" the Springer show.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by cargo]

Boy republicans are mixed up, it has to be their way, or no way at all, and their views or no views at all. What is with that? We read their sentiments whereby they tell those who complain about the U.S. to leave, then they complain about them wanting to leave. They speak of the ones not following their ideals as foreigners who came to the country to find a better life, as though only immigrant Americans are dissatisfied with the way things are. Then they speak as though the ones wanting to leave had nothing to do with the infrastructure, they can't be construction workers and road builders, for surely a poll of every American wishing to leave must have been taken to determine their line of work.

So what is it to be, and why do you complain? You lambaste democrats for what they stand for, laugh in their faces when your party rules, tell them their beliefs are immoral and just plain nuts, then you criticize them for not wanting to stay and tough it out under your rules? You should be celebrating that they want to leave shouldn't you? You don't care for their politics so with all of them gone, guess what? You have the country to yourselves and so every citizen will be happier than a pig in mud. Why exactly are you complaining? or is it that you can't stand the fact that after all of your bragging and incorrect statements that America is this, that and everything else, other Americans just do not agree with you.

And Cassie, I have read that charge of yours before about Canada having a Patriot Act of sorts. I can tell you that you have been bamboozled by propaganda, for Canada has nothing remotely close to that blatant disregard for civil rights. And those sites you offered as proof of problems in Canada? It's called free speech, and those virtually dismissed and insignificant people are exercising theirs, even though some of it was not what you attempted to convey.

[edit on 11/10/04 by SomewhereinBetween]

.
I want to go somewhere where your humanity still counts for something and doesn't depend on your religious affiliation.

Talking to donkeys is pointless, they don't understand Human speech.
Trying to get people who don't want to feel anything to understand how something feels is also pointless.
Life is much to short to waste time trying to illustrate what you see as the truth to other people. People go their separate ways and the chips will fall where they may.

Mobility brought every single one of us here on this continent, whether it was 20,000 years ago or last week. When people tell you it's my way or the highway, hello highway, here I come.

Thinking America or any nation, religion or culture has a LOCK on the future is ALWAYS a mistake in the long run.
I think maybe the Universe enjoys kicking the arses of those who think everything is set aside for them.

Some people by clinging so tightly to America, are choking the life out of it.

Those who are alert and aware take a look at what America is and is likely to be and become. If they think there are better places to be, and they are able, they will go there.

It is voting with your feet.

A little information, The Universe is larger than you, me or the entire species, planet, solar system or galaxy.
We have a small effect on Reality. It has a huge effect on us.
Political/religious views shared by many in a seemingly deep rooted way is something larger than any individual. I think of it as sort of like mental topography. Arguing with social shifts and movements is sort of like arguing with the ocean. You won't win and will wear yourself out trying.
The sensible pragmatic person steps out of the way of freight trains rather than fighting with them, even if you are in a car.

Saying that America is like Nazi Germany is probably overstating the case, at least i hope it is. But those Jews who were able did leave Germany before it got too bad. You would argue that they should have stayed and fought the mass propaganda blaming them for the loss of WWI.

When people cling to a view of the past, such as 1950s Beaver Cleaver Suburbia being some kind of lost utopia it is pretty hard to argue with their delusions. When you are blamed for 'the moral decay' of the nation because you are gay, well, what can you say?

If people want to have some unbreathing, constipated view of the world frozen in amber that never changes it is a sign of a dead-end viewpoint.

Life is ever-changing. Those who deal with it loosely and agilely are the well balanced people I would like live around. The nimble of mind and spirit usually find a way through obstacles. Life isn't found in the Bible, it is inside you.
.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Boy republicans are mixed up, it has to be their way, or no way at all, and their views or no views at all. What is with that? We read their sentiments whereby they tell those who complain about the U.S. to leave, then they complain about them wanting to leave.

So when did we tell them all to leave? I've said people who hate America SHOULD leave for their own good, but never said that they should be forced to leave. When people say "I'm leaving because Bush got elected", I say "Good riddance". What's so wrong with that?

Originally posted by Herman
So when did we tell them all to leave? I've said people who hate America SHOULD leave for their own good, but never said that they should be forced to leave. When people say "I'm leaving because Bush got elected", I say "Good riddance". What's so wrong with that?

Well Herman, had I known you weren't willing to go back to MrNice's post on page one, or Lost Sailor's and a few others on a thread already provided as a link, and you would be asking this question, I would have taken care to record every single poster's statement and thread where exactly that has been stated. Alas, I failed Kreskin 101. and obviously did not see that I needed to plan ahead.

Now, I know my memory is not what it was a decade or so ago, but I am very certain that I made no claim that they were being "forced" to leave. So maybe you will be kind enough to show me exactly where in my words you read the word; "forced." I'll even lessen your grief, and settle for; caused. If you find either/or let me know, when you don't, maybe you will be able to better understand how your last question is irrelevant.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Boy republicans are mixed up, it has to be their way, or no way at all, and their views or no views at all. What is with that? We read their sentiments whereby they tell those who complain about the U.S. to leave, then they complain about them wanting to leave.

I think you have it backwards. The liberals are threatening to leave. The Republicans are saying, have a nice trip.

What's wrong with that?

They speak of the ones not following their ideals as foreigners who came to the country to find a better life, as though only immigrant Americans are dissatisfied with the way things are.

Sorry, once again you have it backwards. The liberals are leaving because they didn't get their way. Republicans aren't following their ideals, they say, like endorsing gay marriage.

Then they insult all people who didn't vote the way they wanted them to by calling them right-wing church-goers. As if going to church was a bad thing. And, they call anyone who voted for Bush, stupid.

And Cassie, I have read that charge of yours before about Canada having a Patriot Act of sorts. I can tell you that you have been bamboozled by propaganda, for Canada has nothing remotely close to that blatant disregard for civil rights. And those sites you offered as proof of problems in Canada? It's called free speech, and those virtually dismissed and insignificant people are exercising theirs, even though some of it was not what you attempted to convey.

I don't know about Canada, but Great Britain has a law equivalent to the Patriot Act.

Originally posted by jsobecky
�I think you have it backwards. The liberals are threatening to leave. The Republicans are saying, have a nice trip.�

Do I have it backwards? Let�s examine what I said:

�� republicans are mixed up� they tell those who complain about the U.S. to leave�

You say:

Sorry, once again you have it backwards. The liberals are leaving because they didn't get their way. Republicans aren't following their ideals, they say, like endorsing gay marriage.

I cannot seem to find anything in my posts that said Liberals were leaving because they have it their way, or that Republicans don�t have it their way, you appear to be mixed up. So again, I am afraid you have read words I have not written. But just to put it in context for you what my words were, I will insert a parenthetic noun for your understanding:

�They (Republicans)speak of the ones not following their ideals as foreigners who came to the country to find a better life, as though only immigrant Americans are dissatisfied with the way things are.�

I hope that clears it all up for you.

Slank,

great post!

UK and Canadian Patriot ACT

This thread seemed to have not gotten much attention when it was active. While not as far reaching as the Patriot ACT, Writs of Assistance can allow for great abuse.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Do I have it backwards? Let�s examine what I said:

�� republicans are mixed up� they tell those who complain about the U.S. to leave�
I cannot seem to find anything in my posts that said Liberals were leaving because they have it their way, or that Republicans don�t have it their way, you appear to be mixed up. So again, I am afraid you have read words I have not written

What I was implying was that the liberals were not told to leave; they threatened to leave. This is one of several threads supporting what I said:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I wasn't commenting on what you said; I was commenting on what the liberals said. Perhaps I should have referenced the thread in the first place.

Originally posted by IBM
This message is directed to all those who claim to leave the US because Bush was elected. I believe it is my opinion that you take your country for granted.

I totally agree with you. I'm stuck in Wales, UK for a year and I can't wait to get back to the US, order a Keystone light with an order of hotwings and watch some good basketball on TV.

Originally posted by PistolPete
UK and Canadian Patriot ACT

This thread seemed to have not gotten much attention when it was active. While not as far reaching as the Patriot ACT, Writs of Assistance can allow for great abuse.

I had not read that thread previously, and Intrepid, dismissed same immediately. The statement by the author of the thread whereby he indicates his RCMP friend can use it for any reason is patently false. The writ is issued under three seperate and distinct jurisdictions and anything seized under the writ must fall under the jurisdiction for which it was written; i.e: The Narcotics Act; The Customs and Excise Act and the Food and Drug Act. Furthermore, the officer requesting the writ must provide reasonable evidence and pledge and oath to his belief and viability.

This act has been around for decades, is used wisely, and thrown out of court when not. The writ does not come close to the Patriot Act, in any form or fashion. For instance, one cannot be picked up and secreted away with representation of attorney, or for any indefinite amount of time, or be removed from Canada on the grounds that the RCMP "think" they may have plotted against the country. Nor for that matter does it allow a person to be considered a terrorist for any reason.

The attempt to convey to foreigners that Canada has a Patriot Act of any sort is disingenuous.