Obey the authorities or you will be punished!

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

And how do you know the churches aren't influencing anything?

Because it's in the constitution. Thankfully.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I just said that I was taking the New Testament as a whole, referring to what was said or implied in 1 Peter and Revelation.

Paul would never have accepted the proposition "You must disobey God if the authorities tell you to", so the exception would have been implicit in his mind.
He does not mention the exception, because the situation had not yet arisen, and because he was focussing on making one main point.
That is, the need to co=operate with government (under normal circumstances) as the lesser of two evils.

You are still being legalistic about this.
Paul is saying it is a good thing that murderers, thieves, and arsonists get punished.
You know he's right, and you agree with him.
But you want to haul him over the coals because he lays down a basic principle and you can find exceptions.

PS Rome was not involved in what Paul was doing before his conversion.
That was a Jewish persecution, with Paul acting under the Sanhedrin.
The official Roman persecution started after the fire of Rome, when Nero wanted someone to blame.
It could not start much earlier, because the authorities had not learned the difference between Christians and Jews, who were a legal religion.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Where does Paul say to disobey the authorities under any circumstance? He says not to resist/rebel/disobey the authorities and says nothing about a situation which calls for it at all.

I don't know where you guys are getting this information because it's clearly not in the passage I cited. Nowhere does it say "except if it goes against god's law" or "disobey under such and such circumstances". It clearly says the governing authorities are god's "agents" and "servants" doing things for the good of the people.

It would really help if you read the passage in context instead of pulling things out of thin air.

ETA: Paul helped people to persecute Christians before his "conversion", so you saying persecutions weren't happening is historically false. Were the Christians thieves, murderers, and wrongdoers? Because they were being punished too.

edit on 23-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

What part of obey the law do you not understand? If you really think that Paul is telling believers they must obey any law which the rulers hand down then your just being silly.

If anyone who was around at that time thought that is what Paul was talking about he would have been dead alot sooner. No offence, but some aren't that stupid to were they can't read between the lines.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Nope.

Romans 13
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

I guess the Romans stoning Stephen to death and Saul holding their coats was for Stephens good? Christians were being persecuted and killed while Paul was writing this letter, meaning he is saying what the authorities were doing to the Christians was for their good and that those doing the persecuting were god's servants and agents.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The thing is, Paul says rebelling against the authority is rebelling against god, because god puts in place all governing systems. It's a catch-22.

I've never lived in a system where absolute tyranny was legal. The U.S. is supposed to be:

The People
|
The Laws which the People have agreed to.
|
The politicians and other hirelings hired to enforce the Laws.

If the People hire criminals who appoint thugs, and all the criminality of the servants goes unpunished, then the People have put themselves under a system of lawlessness. That doesn't make it legal, that just means it's upside-down.

I don't know why people let their servants do such things. It makes no sense, yet here we are.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Did you just call me stupid? How Christian of you.

Paul says the governing authorities were agents of God, all while those governing authorities were persecuting Christians. I guess god told his servants to kill his people for their own good?

I'm running in circles here. I think I'll stop here for right now because you guys are completely and totally blind to the obvious. I don't feel like repeating myself over and over anymore.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The Romans did not stone Stephen to death either.
That was a Jewish event.
Your knowledge of history is not vey strong.

I repeat; the Roman persecution of Christians had not begun when this letter was written, so Paul was free to focus on his main point, with which you agree-
namely that the punishment of wrongdoers, such as murderers, thieves, rapists, and arsonists is a good thing.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

edit on 23-7-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

That's what I thought, I guess it was moved to off-topic. It would be really good if it had had a different title such as pastors and Romans 13, or something to that effect.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Nero started persecuting Christians in 64 CE, and he was part of the governing authorities. I guess since he was a servant of god, that means his persecutions were for the good of Christians.

You're dancing around the issue. God doesn't change right? So all governing authorities throughout history have been his servants and agents doing what he believes is good for the people. Nero persecuting Christians was carried out by an agent and servant of god. Why did god kill his believers?

I'm done for now.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

edit on 23-7-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Why did you remove your comment, huh?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Did you just call me stupid? How Christian of you.

Paul says the governing authorities were agents of God, all while those governing authorities were persecuting Christians. I guess god told his servants to kill his people for their own good?

I'm running in circles here. I think I'll stop here for right now because you guys are completely and totally blind to the obvious. I don't feel like repeating myself over and over anymore.

I never said you were stupid, if you took it that way then that's on you. I'm simply pointing out the fact that your view of the scriptures is off. You don't know how to make the scriptures come together. You find one and then try and run with it as if it is a back breaker to Christianity, lol. Yeah right, people have been studying these verses for years, yet you magically come up with something that no other scholar or priest has seen.

Your only one who is blind in this matter.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

But the persecution by Nero was AFTER the writing of this letter.
John Robinson dates the writing of Romans at around A.D. 57.
That is BEFORE A.D. 64
So as I have said before, Paul was writing this letter at a time when the Roman persecution of Chrsitians had not started, and he was free to focus on his main point.
Paul says the authorities are the servants of God because they punish wrongdoers.
Which means WHEN they punish wrongdoers.

reply to post by DISRAELI


So Rome was the good guy before 64 CE? Yeah right.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Rome was not persecuting Christians before then.
That point is familiar to people who have knowledge of history.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Didn't Rome kill Jesus for treason? His crime, "King of Jews" was displayed by the Romans, who were on the ones killing him.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Didn't Rome kill Jesus for treason? His crime, "King of Jews" was displayed by the Romans, who were on the ones killing him.

The Romans only carried out the execution, it was the Jews who demanded his death.

reply to post by windword

As far as they knew, they were acting against an individual political offender.

Official Roman hostility to the Christian community could not get going until the authorities came to realise
a) There was a group of people not willing to sacrifice to the Emperor.
b) They were not Jews, who had permission.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You do know that paul didn't write everything allegedly written by him?
en.wikipedia.org...
catholic-resources.org...

the verses cited are just self-serving interpolations made by the same authorities seeking obedience.

it's always the same crapspew in one repackaged form or another

the king is god [or his son] =divine right of kings=the will of the people [vox populi, vox dei]=SUBMIT, OBEY!