Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Silly Darwinist...Didn't you hear he recanted his theory of evolution on his death bed.

Darwin? Theory of evolution? No, no no...Darwin came up with the theory of natural selection, not evolution.

*facepalm*

It amazes me how so many people are ignorant to the fact that Pierre-Louis Moreau de Maupertuis invented the theory of evolution.

If people are going to argue back and forth about it, at least get the historical facts and the people right!

i have found some things mormonism teaches to be right and some things to be wrong. but where they have it right, in my estimation, is in areas that are so important, historically, and so obscured by translation anomalies in the biblical text, that even the mormon approach to it is mired down in the vagueness of the ancient past.

for example, their teaching of jesus and lucifer being brothers who had a show down over how to handle the shepherding of the human race, is mirrored in the struggle between the sumerian enki and enlil. however, there are a few theological mistakes along the way in the mormon version, which i blame on the teachings of the vatican, teachings which stuck like glue to offshoots of the biblical religions, and shouldn't have

there are several important and pertinent pieces of information in mormonism, however, the value of the rest of the teachings is no greater/different than any other biblical religion. the mistakes their religion makes are huge, but where they are correct, they are correct in an equally big way.

20 years ago, i would have said they have like zero accuracy. today, i see now where the teachings were stemming from -- the trail is easily track-able once you know what to look for, and like most of christendom, it's overshadowed by papal interpretations that have muddied the biblical waters and subsequent translations.

Religion...where to start.

A long time ago people began to wonder how the world around them came to be. One guy said, "I know! How about this God guy created all this and us!"

Then, another, smarter guy noticed that the guy that came up with that thought was receiving a lot of attention. I mean, he has answers! Well the 2nd guy decided he could get all the people in his tribe to listen to him and follow him if he made a more convincing story. He made up names, places, entire stories to fill in and answer most of the questions.

People praised him because they finally had answers -- this guy "knew how it all worked!"

Well, eventually that wasn't quite enough ... people weren't obeying nearly as much as the guy wanted. So this guy (being so smart) decided to invent something called "hell" and "sins" to scare the people into following the teachings he had created. It worked.

And thousands of years later we still are following people that claim to "know the secrets" and "know how it all works". We still allow ourselves to be scared into obedience.

Religion, it's the ultimate tool of control.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
Religion...where to start.

A long time ago people began to wonder how the world around them came to be. One guy said, "I know! How about this God guy created all this and us!"

Then, another, smarter guy noticed that the guy that came up with that thought was receiving a lot of attention. I mean, he has answers! Well the 2nd guy decided he could get all the people in his tribe to listen to him and follow him if he made a more convincing story. He made up names, places, entire stories to fill in and answer most of the questions.

People praised him because they finally had answers -- this guy "knew how it all worked!"

Well, eventually that wasn't quite enough ... people weren't obeying nearly as much as the guy wanted. So this guy (being so smart) decided to invent something called "hell" and "sins" to scare the people into following the teachings he had created. It worked.

And thousands of years later we still are following people that claim to "know the secrets" and "know how it all works". We still allow ourselves to be scared into obedience.

Religion, it's the ultimate tool of control.

religion = a word often used to describe ancient history, in an effort to disenfranchise one's self from equally ancient moral codes. these 2 should be separable but for some reason, both sides want to keep them glued together so that either 1) none of the information is given more than a passing glimpse and a hand wave or 2) all of the information, exactly as it is presented and translated, is the undeniable and totally accurate truth, amen and so forth and so on.

if there are any mormons reading this thread, you are cordially invited to read my "Stargates are Real" thread, particularly if you're an elder or scholar of the church of latter day saints, as i think you may find some of the information eyebrow raising. i know i did when i realized what i was looking at. fair warning: the thread is over 300 pages long, over 5 years old and still going, and has several broken links. it also builds slowly and is intersected by the occasional melt down but if you manage to read the whole thing, you may find some information is pretty darn interesting from the mormon perspective and perhaps will shed new light on biblical texts.

p.s. by the time it gets to around 200 pages or thereabouts, my original theories had been modified somewhat, and by the end of it, the guy who i thought was the bad guy, turns out to be the good guy, and the guy who i thought was the good guy, turns out to be the not so good guy. it's an ongoing discovery.

Originally posted by jawnaw2000
Do I know that it won't blow up in the mean time? No.

Respectfully I disagree. The Bible says that the armies of Armageddon will gather and Christ will return to decimate them and will set foot on the mount of Olives and it will cleave in two, creating a valley.

If the sun has a catastrophic failure that causes it to fail to function or jeopardize life on earth then there won't be any armies to gather for Christ to decimate when he returns. So, we can know that while we may have solar flares that will disrupt electricity we won't have an earth scorching event that will destroy life.

Along the same lines if one of the New Testament authors said that Jesus was the Word and the word became flesh we can deduce that Jesus was inspiring holy men to write scripture from His residence in Heaven before coming to earth, and after He was crucified he was inspiring holy men to record his dealings while on the earth, John the Revelator's visions, etc. Therefore if the scriptures say that no additional gospel is allowed then, anyone who opposes that rejects divine inspiration spoken authoritatively in the Bible by Jesus authority.

reply to post by Miracula


i agree with pretty much everything you just said EXCEPT, the concept that the WORD made flesh refers specifically to past scripture before the advent of christ. unless you consider your body to be a scripture, i would suggest the word made flesh is not only a reference to past scripture and history but also to DNA. you, and all of living creation (animate, not inanimate. life, not non-living), is constructed via a code language embedded in your dna. that i believe is a double reference. if you'll notice, the texts are not single layers of information.

I am an agnostic and not religious in any way so I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do want to tell you my experience with some of the Mormons I have known in my life.

For years I shared an office complex with a Mormon family who owned a commercial insurance agency. Actually, I sublet from them so they were technically my landlords. I owned a small building services company doing mainly building design and land use projects -- producing construction drawings and doing permitting mostly.

Early on I made it known to these folks that I was not religious and NOT LOOKING and they were immediately cool with that. I entertained a lot of builders and developers and kept a fully-stocked bar in a shallow closet in the conference room, beer in the fridge in the break room, and even though I have never been a smoker, kept ashtrays in an outside atrium where I could meet with clients who were smokers. There was always a pot of coffee on during the day.

At first, I knew nothing about Mormonism and that things like alcohol were big no-no's in their religion. Yet they were always so very gracious and kind to me and my employees. At some point, I realized that I might be insulting these folks and decided to approach them and make sure things were cool.

I sat down with the father one afternoon -- the patriarch if you will, and told him what was on my mind. He could not have been nicer about it and thanked me profusely for thinking of them. There was no problem. He could not have been more gracious.

In fact, he was so cool about it that as a courtesy and show of respect I decided to move all the alcohol out of the common areas of the complex and we set up our own "meeting room" in a remodeled storage space that could only be accessed through a separate entrance.

I could tell this pleased them greatly. They got it.

As the years went by the eldest son spent more and more time in my offices talking about what projects we were working on, pouring over blueprints (this was the early 1990's -- we were still using stinky ammonia-soaked blueprints, hehehehe), and playing around with all the scales and articulated drafting instruments we used at the time in the course of our work. I was quite pleased and not surprised at all when he told me that he was applying to the architecture program at BYU after his "mission".

He was accepted at some point and it was right around the time we were making the very painful and scary switch from hand drafting to AutoCAD (computer drafting). However, architecture programs still were using hand drafting at the undergrad level (this was 1994 or so) and I was very pleased that we could set him up with the best table station and drafting gear money could buy. It was no use to us anymore...

The kid went off to Utah and a couple months went by. One day I found an envelope from BYU. It is to this day the most touching and heartfelt "thank you" I have ever read. I still take it out and read it once in awhile and it still gives my a lump in my throat.

So where is he now...?

He is one of the most promising commercial architects in the Rocky Mountain region. He is truly brilliant and already building a remarkable career. He is married to a great gal and they have twin daughters and a new 6 m/o baby boy. We still talk from time to time.

And he is still a very devout Mormon...

Again, speaking as an agnostic, my experiences with Mormons (I have known others) have been nothing but 100% positive. I cannot say the same for any other religious folks I have known.

reply to post by FlyersFan


From the article describing his time as a church elder in Sweden:

“I was just in a bubble, and we felt so happy,” Mr. Mattsson said.

That says it all. He had his faith and that's what faith offers people. A protective shield in a very unsure world. To them, that is good. However, knowledge bursts the bubble of faith to show what it really is. A fantasy.

Say what you will about Mormons, it seems that many of them aren't pacified by faith. They want the truth. They want to................dare I say it?................ Deny Ignorance.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


or, and i think this is something every inquiring mind should want to know, there's another layer of information buried in the texts that you and most of us, are not privy to, or rather, not entirely privy to, and it is this layer which hides the details that elude secular historians, anthropologists and scientists, and as a result, people who have no reason to study beyond what they are told. if someone tells you the book is fairy tales (fill in the blank) and you havent given it earnest study of your own, you are just as ignorant as someone who thinks the only information it contains is clearly visible and the only pertinent information to be had.

in effect, it's the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally posted by undo

unless you consider your body to be a scripture,

Yes. I agree with you that a body or person is not a scripture. I think it was the the Bible authors way of conveying that the scriptures were brought forth by men inspired by Christ. Not Christ's physical body, but the Word or Bible was brought forth by His spirit as it moved upon holy men's minds to record things of spiritual worth and some historical facts in ancient Israels dealings to show why events occurred, how justice is dealt out, etc.

reply to post by Miracula

Originally posted by Miracula

Yes. I agree with you that a body or person is not a scripture. I think it was the the Bible authors way of conveying that the scriptures were brought forth by men inspired by Christ. Not Christ's physical body, but the Word or Bible was brought forth by His spirit as it moved upon holy men's minds to record things of spiritual worth and some historical facts in ancient Israels dealings to show why events occurred, how justice is dealt out, etc.

edit on vpmMon, 22 Jul 2013 20:20:46 -0500 _8pmq = by Miracula because: (no reason given)

i take it you are anti-mormon (as in you make it your goal to deprogram as it were, mormons)? just based on your avatar. joseph smith was right about the egyptian connection in the biblical text. personal question, if i may: are you catholic? this is leading somewhere thought provoking

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Miracula

 

Originally posted by Miracula

joseph smith was right about the egyptian connection in the biblical text.

Egyptian connection....well the Jews were in slavery to Egypt.

Abanes documents Smith's attempts to interpret the Pearl of Great Price papyrus as complete frauds. Further his attempts to interpret these images have nothing to do with spiritual instruction. His ability or inability to interpret these images has nothing to do with salvation.

Discredit....I suppose that searching for truth in things which many people consider to be truth but might be being misled is a service to those being deceived.

I'm not so much anti-Mormon as I am pro-logic and pro-truth and using logic and reason to sort out the truth. I think that is what Richard Abanes accomplished in his book One Nation Under Gods. Truth is not slander. Truth is not hatred of Mormons. Truth stands on its own.

And when you find truth and it paints a religion in a light other than how it presents itself to the public that is not a personal attack or an attack on the character of any people. Mormons have great moral values. Chastity. No drug use. Helpful people. Courteous. They're great people, but that doesn't lend credibility to a man like Smith who I perceive as being of the same moral character as Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs is the true nature of 19th Century Mormonism in my view.

edit on vpmMon, 22 Jul 2013 21:49:57 -0500 _9pmq = by Miracula because: (no reason given)

edit on vpmMon, 22 Jul 2013 21:53:09 -0500 _9pmq = by Miracula because: (no reason given)

miracula

i don't mean the document joseph translated is accurate, i mean the egyptian connection is accurate. joseph is right in that there is an egyptian connection. the old testament is mostly an egyptian book in disguise.

for example, atum = adam.
amen is not just let it be so or so be it or whatever your particular translation happens to be, but it is also the etymological ancestor of anu, who was the sumerian "heavenly father." this is not to say that jesus was horus the sun god in the strictest zeitgeist sense but he was that in addition to what he claimed to be. he was the alpha and the omega, the last pharaoh and the first pharaoh (antediluvian!).

oh yeah, the truth is sandwiched inbetween the guys who say it's all fake, and the guys who say it's all accurately depicted, without errors of any kind.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by onthedownlow
Wow, hate Mormons much?

There is always one who will get on a thread like this and shout 'you hate ____' (fill in the blank)
:shk: I have said that Mormons are the nicest people I've ever met.
How you get 'I hate mormon's' out of that is absurd.

Have you consider the alternative, that your own viewpoints may be beholden to your own personal values, and the temptations that have jaded your judgment?

Dude .. it's not a matter of 'viewpoint' or 'personal values' ... it's a matter of FACT and TRUTH.
As the article said ... people are indoctrinated into an organized religion and, when given access
to facts and historical information, those people discover that their organized religion is based
on BUNK. That's fact and truth ... not 'viewpoint' or 'personal values'.

The article states that the internet is helping people to discover truth.
That's why it's important that the internet stay free and not under government control

Ultimately, you attack religion and faith because you have none- ponder on that for a moment.

Ultimately, you have no idea what my religion and/or faith is ... you assume too much.
So ponder on that for a moment ... will ya'??

A lot of the 'problems' with the Mormon religion are similar to problems other religions have. Looking at that list of questions, I can see similarities that other religions have with how they were invented.

- A man claims visions from heaven and offers no solid proof.
- The visions/man have hate towards a group of people. An enemy is invented.
- The man claims multiple 'wives' and even steals the wives of others. (at God's command)
- Contradictions between what the religion claims and what history shows to be true.
- 'Borrowing' the standing of other established religions by incorporating bits and pieces of them into the new religion. Piggy-backing off the established religions ... and sometimes changing the original established religion to match the new one to give it 'credibility'.

Sound familiar? It should. The Mormon religion isn't the only one guilty of this. The Jewish faith did it. It 'borrowed' stories from the ancient Egyptians and ancient Summerians, changed the names and places, and made those stories their own. Muhammad did many of the same things that the Mormon founder did as well.

Um, begging your pardon, but I believe you are the one that threw out the word 'hate'. You have a certain animosity towards religion, its evident in your post by the language you use. It should be pointed out that history is rewritten every 20 or so years by the prevailing ideas of the time, and this adaptation of history is very agenda drive, just as your post is.

I am glad to hear this. I personally am a Christian, and if you think we believe in unfounded things, get a load of the Mormons! For years I have debated with my Mormon friends over the logical fallacy of their religion, I mean if you do a beginner's study on it, you would find it is far more illogical than probably any other mainstream religion I know of.

This is where the beauty of Jesus' word comes into play, that you can expose with truth, the lies that exist in man-made doctrines such as Mormonism and so on, but you cannot find these same fallacies in Christianity. Now you Atheists might just jump on me ready to tear my head off, but I have something to say to you;

Just as freedom of the internet and seeking the "truth" reveals logical flaws in man made doctrines, so also will seeking the truth reveal the need for a Saviour. So be careful now Atheists, don't pop the champagne just yet, because good research does show more flaws in the unbelief in a God, than it does in the true God Jesus.

Originally posted by honested3
I am glad to hear this. I personally am a Christian, and if you think we believe in unfounded things, get a load of the Mormons! For years I have debated with my Mormon friends over the logical fallacy of their religion, I mean if you do a beginner's study on it, you would find it is far more illogical than probably any other mainstream religion I know of.

This is where the beauty of Jesus' word comes into play, that you can expose with truth, the lies that exist in man-made doctrines such as Mormonism and so on, but you cannot find these same fallacies in Christianity. Now you Atheists might just jump on me ready to tear my head off, but I have something to say to you;

Just as freedom of the internet and seeking the "truth" reveals logical flaws in man made doctrines, so also will seeking the truth reveal the need for a Saviour. So be careful now Atheists, don't pop the champagne just yet, because good research does show more flaws in the unbelief in a God, than it does in the true God Jesus.

You do realize that Mormons are Christian, don't you? Please point out some of the church's teachings that you find so illogical.

Also has anybody ever thought that Moses was technically raised "Egyptian", if he was a leader to the Jews, maybe a lot of that culture came over with them, hence the Egyptian stuff etc. Just a thought.

reply to post by onthedownlow


They are not Christian. Period. They have very contrasting doctrinal beliefs, such as satan and Jesus being brothers. (Which implies God has more than one Son) and they believe Jesus was a created being, not part of the trinity of God. If you study it you will find this. Muslims are closer to Christians than Mormons are, seriously.

Originally posted by honested3
reply to post by onthedownlow

 

They are not Christian. Period. They have very contrasting doctrinal beliefs, such as satan and Jesus being brothers. (Which implies God has more than one Son) and they believe Jesus was a created being, not part of the trinity of God. If you study it you will find this. Muslims are closer to Christians than Mormons are, seriously.

he did have more than one son. one of them was begotten.
attention to detail = requirement.