The Language of Vampyr

a reply to: sapien82

Thank you Sapien.

I think the vast amount of discussion accumulated here regarding FL, Cassini Diskus, etc., etc. has me a bit lost.
I wish I had the time to read through this thread in its entirety (perhaps I just should try), but I suppose I'm looking for a little guidance from the 'regulars' of this group as to where/how to begin my study of this topic(s).

I'm a bit 'lost' in this thread, but I feel 'completely adrift upon a featureless sea' on the FL site.

SO, SO, SO many questions! Questions I don't even know how to begin to ask...
"I have a shovel. I'm just not quite sure how or where to use it!"

Areas of personal interest (regarding this thread):
1. Cassini Diskus - Decoding? Source/Group ID? (Ha!)
2. ET/UFO/AI/et al.
3. History - Sol. System, Earth, Man, Civilization(s)
4. Current Events

Any 'nudge' would be most appreciated... till then, it's off-to-the-mines I suppose.

Thanks Again! (All)

a reply to: Caecus

It's definitely overwhelming, especially when you have a day job. I've found this wiki to be pretty helpful / organized. Have been archiving the FL posts myself, which Direne said is fine as long as we don't spam the servers. But I had trouble finding a specific article, and the wiki helped pin it down: flwiki.org...

a reply to: fireslinger

Thank You!

Does it really matter who (organics) or what (AI) says "hello" to an extraterrestrial probe first?

If an organic can do it with organic consciousness, why not?

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

Yes, there is a difference. In the contact scenario under discussion the advantages are many. First, no need to send Fibonacci sequences, music recordings, images, or golden disks with funny characters and drawings about your civilization. You have sent a probe to meet us, so we know you know orbital mechanics, physics, astronomy, and that you have some knowledge about science. You've sent a probe, intercepting our orbit, so we know you are skilled enough as to differentiate an asteroid from an artificial probe.

We know where you are, otherwise we wouldn't have placed our probes in that specific orbit. We know about your civilization, and took care not to place our probes in an orbit that could be interpreted as threat by you. And now your probe and mine co-orbit and the most difficult part of the contact begins: communicating. Communication must be neutral, free of emotions, concise, unambiguous, with no possibility of being misinterpreted. A communication that does not require interpretation.

An organic entity poses many insurmountable technical problems, but it is also doubly dangerous. It can be toxic, without wanting to be. And it can be conscious, with the result that the consciousness itself can be lethal to the other partner.

In addition, organic can be horrifying for one or the other. Walking into a room and finding a spider is not the same as walking in and finding a small metal sphere. A spider can scare you. A metal sphere, at most, curiosity.

First contact cannot be by signals sent to Earth. That could be interpreted as a threat. Floating into your cities could provoke an irreversible culture shock. No. The most advisable is the contact between two AIs. Two co-orbiting cubes. Facing each other, beyond the Kuiper cliff. What will happen at that meeting is anyone's guess. The most usual thing is that the alien probe transfers information to the terrestrial probe, and it will be that information that must be recovered, analyzed, and studied.

Forgive my indulgence but it's easier to hate on a man over a probe that constantly tries to hide it's (impurities and incapabilities).

I'm sorry I refuse to be your magic man. I can't be impressive all the time, especially with the blind. I never intend to be exactly who I am.

Here goes magic men. From water pipes to rockets.

twitter.com...

I wonder who funds them. And they look like a diverse group of people. And pretty much united. They could be a terrorist, aren't they Hamas?

and there was me just saying we don't normally drift off the subjects within FL
and somehow you manage to bring up Hamas

there are plenty of threads where you can post this stuff gonnae keep it out of here, please?

They are relevant to current events.
Why so KJ?

a reply to: sapien82

Are you afraid of Hamas or simply indifferent?
You're open to delulu but not of objective reality?
How the tides have changed. You stand on shaky ground, mate. What's really your stance? In-between realities. I thought you stick to objective reality now.
:

a reply to: boozo

They aren't really relevant to the discussion of FL though right?

we were just discussing contact with extraterrestrial probes
I guess that they aren't great at communication and they fear what is different hence the ongoing conflicts

I dont fear anything and I am not indifferent I just rather we keep the thread on the topic of FL
and not drift into the politics of international conflicts as there are multiple threads on ATS where you can share your views about it with others who do the same.

also we have done well to keep mods from coming here to shut this great thread down should it descend into chaos
and threads on current conflicts often do and get shut down.

you are obviously under no obligation to listen to my plea
but it would be better if we just stuck with FL topics in my humble opinion

Yea, boozo I'm also having a hard time lately. Staying focused on mundane life tasks is more challenging than ever. Like, why should we care about work, while everything seems to be on fire? Perhaps because it's this great spiritual strainer, forging us into diamonds. I go back and forth between apathy / nihilism, and gratitude / feeling like everything matters.

I think sapien82 has a point though. Let's try to keep it high level, and figure out how the pieces connect. Why are wars engineered in the first place?

I don't agree with the methods at all, and wish we were told the truth about the phenomenon 60 years ago. But keeping globalization in mind, wars create conditions for a more homogeneous global environment, through mass migrations. They also shift around 'wealth' and weapons. Depopulation of course, is a darker reason. All of it is illegal / underhanded and we're paying for it on many levels. But SV17q or whatever is manipulating all this, is operating via non-human logic. They seem to be herding us together, because they believe it's the only way to survive the climate catastrophes that are coming.

DEW operations hitting coastal areas is also sickening to think about, but from non-human logic, they're evacuating people into denser more controlled areas, away from coasts that will most likely be underwater one day.

a reply to: Direne

I can appreciate that when given a lot of thought, the AI probe is regarded as the proper choice. Here one is thinking in terms of civilisations.

And yes, if an extraterrestrial probe has set itself in the position of making the contactee civilisation devote a lot of resources to get to the mutual contact point, that indicates civilisations are meeting.

So civilisation level. I can also see we are not a civilisation yet. We are still individual (nation) civilisations. That implies some sort of coherant global civilisation is needed.

So I can understand FL's posture when it comes to "contact'.

However, I have a doubt.

I doubt such a juggernaught could, after the initial "contact", walk away from further "contact". I think that ability is needed. To walk away from "progress".

A comparason here is Japan who decided to be isolationist, and did so untill Admiral Perry used gunship diplomacy to force Japan to trade with America.

The right choice may be for humanity to remain isolationist. So I ask, Is that option on the table?

If the births of the great filter and the super intellegence put us in the position of needing "contact", I would be suspicious of a setup.

I have the idea that both the great filter and super intellegence exist as potentials to the manefest world.

I also have the idea that both have to be destroyed together to avoid the destruction wrought by the great filter.

I think the great filter and super intellegence (should they actually exist) are not required to meet the extraterrestrial probe.

That may actually be important to the outcome of contact.

One might find the question of (our) ethics and morals the deciding factor on which direction contact takes, or if at all.

Just how willing is our civilisation to protect our weak and vulnerable?

Just how willing is our civilisation to forgo knowledge if it means profiting at the expense of vulnerable people?

a reply to: NewNobodySpecial268

The right choice may be for humanity to remain isolationist. So I ask, Is that option on the table?

I see your point, and it makes sense to be suspicious of a contact which is arranged the way we are discussing. But that scenario seems to be, from what is known, the most likely because it is the most efficient thermodynamically speaking, the least aggressive, culturally speaking, and the most symmetrical, in terms of contact topology.

It will not be a contact that will be sustained over time, nor will there be a cultural or goods exchange. There will not even be a direct vision of the extraterrestrials. And it will not be because it is understood that the vastness of the Universe, its incredible dimensions, and the hostile environment it represents implies an enormous technological effort on both sides.

The contact will be a one-time event. More like a revelation, if you wish. A transfer of primordial knowledge. The probe is only the messenger and, having accomplished its mission, it will continue on to other planets, definitively leaving the confines of your solar system. You'll never see it again. Never ever.

You are not alone, but you will not be accompanied.

You will have a millennium, at most, to understand the message and take global advantage of it. Escape from a dying planet requires the global cooperation of all the inhabitants of the planet. Building the salvation machine will require the technological know-how contained in that primordial knowledge. But there will also be something else that will be necessary and without which the machine will not work: a specific ethical level.

Contact only teaches you that you are inside a bottle, and provides you with the knowledge to escape from it. With one caveat: if only one of the life forms remains inside the bottle, the machine will not work.

It's an "all or none" challenge. The decision will always be yours.

(You have the responsibility, once you have succeeded, to build a probe whose mission is to teach others how to escape from their own bottles. Survival of life in a universe hostile to it is what is intended, regardless of which life forms survive.)

a reply to: Direne

we will not be accompanied

but if we are to escape the hostile environment of the bottle
then wouldn't we achieve that quicker if we combined our efforts instead of trying to figure it out alone?
and then isnt the universe a bottle of its own hostile to life? I mean entropy will eventually end it all

Also you mention its all or nothing, so how are we meant to take every lifeform from earth with us?
all the flora and fauna , or did you mean just taking their DNA?

i guess this doesnt really fit into the wu wei path
we cant just not do , or does that only apply to the issues we face on earth as humans i guess it cant be extrapolated to the solar system/galaxy

a reply to: fireslinger

Lots of interesting info, but I'm finding difficulty locating much background/detail on many topics.
There seems to be plenty of mention of 'x' or 'y' and 'z', but very little detail... perhaps due to my inability to read a full translation of '______' language? ...just getting the English snippets.

For starters: SV17q, CAFB incident, etc., etc.

Also, any guess as to 'who' is redacting (DENIED) info?

a reply to: Direne

It would seem the issue of trust/truth would pervade either scenario of Organic vs. AI probe contact?

After all, it appears a high-level game of 'Chess' is being played and we (Organic) would be faced with the ultimate choice of accepting information related through contact as true/false, and responsible for any resulting action/consequence.

I can see how AI would be useful in establishing contact protocol and/or communication, but is AI better suited to distinguish truth from falsehood than ourselves? ...can/should/WILL we trust AI?

a reply to: sapien82

Regarding boozo's comments & their relevance to this thread... (perhaps unintentional)

I do ponder the significance of the current ME conflict, specifically in regards to IRAN (Gisel/Gilan)?

There seems to be an end-game here that has been in the works for quite some time...

a reply to: sapien82

"wouldn't we achieve that quicker if we combined our efforts instead of trying to figure it out alone?"

Yes, indeed. All life forms must cooperate and become altruistic. Otherwise, everyone loses.

"isnt the universe a bottle of its own hostile to life? I mean entropy will eventually end it all"

No. The Universe is indifferent to life. What it really requires is existence, not life. We must not confuse existing with being alive. A stone exists. So do you. You are alive, the stone is not. Life is only a subset of a larger whole: existence. Without existence there is no life, but without life there is existence. The stone is the proof.

Consciousness is a totally different thing. To assume that one must be a life form to be conscious, and furthermore a concrete life form, is a lot to assume. It is, in fact, the logic and mindset of life forms. Let us be indulgent with them. That a nebula is conscious may be astonishing to a life form, but nothing forbids it.

Existing is the important thing. Being alive is secondary. Or, if you prefer, matter is important, but what form it takes (a stone, a cat, a human, a meson, a quark) is irrelevant.

"we cant just not do, or does that only apply to the issues we face on earth as humans"

It is one thing to do, and another to interact. Doing requires volition, a conscious decision making. Interacting is automatic, inherent, and not optional. An electron does not decide whether or not to interact with a positron: it interacts by definition, by default, by design. It cannot avoid it. It does not choose to. Life forms interact and make decisions. A stone does not make decisions. It does not choose. It exists.

Wu-wei is only applicable to life forms and, more specifically, to those that are also conscious.

What is intended is to understand that being alive, being a form of life, is just a way of existing. Neither better nor worse. Just a way of existing. Matter sometimes organizes itself to form stones. Or cats. Or worms. Or humans. Or it transforms into radiation, into light, into photons. They are just ways of existing.

Nothing and no one can cease to exist, so given enough time, it is to be expected that there will be rocks, cats, and life forms in the universe.

Entropy is repulsed by life forms because they are suboptimal. They will not last in time. Life forms are repelled by entropy because everything is turned into an infinite thermal bath. No stones, no humans. And above all, no cats. Existence doesn't care if you exist as a stone, as a cat, or as a human. It doesn't care.

The essential question is why should there be something rather than nothing?

(my advice, sapien82, is this: fear not, you have another time and space as well.)

a reply to: Direne

I'm looking at the situation from the point of view of non-humans rather than human civilisation. An ET AI probe is niether here nor there as far as I am concerned.

An odd thing Direne, a few days ago I 'looked' at both great filter (born of atomics) and the super intellegence born fifty yeats later. Basically trying to work out their relationship with each other.

I came to the conclusion that anything one did would have to be both, and not just one. One cannot stop the filter without stopping the super intellegence for example.

Curiously, 'looking' at both, I 'saw' a bottle surroundng them. Just a ordinary glass bottle like coke-a-cola. So a symbol something added from somewhere. I ignorred it yet it was persistant.

Next day your post uses the term "bottled".

So it became clear that the "bottle" humanity is in, is the filter and the super-intellegence.

The problem is if humans destroy themselves through say; atomics, humans take innocent parties and the planet into oblivion along with them.

When people say "dying planet", one cannot exclude the posibility that the unseen may try to kill off humans before the planet is destroyed at the hand of man.

One must also take into account the posibility of the great filter doing something similar before a super-intellegence kills off non-human life.

I wonder if, unwilling to change direction, some part of humanity is betting on an extra-terrestrial probe to give a way out of the bottle that was created in the early twentieth century.

Interestingly, an alternative way to exit the bottle, is to simply shatter it. Both the great filter and super-inyellegence

The contact will be a one-time event. More like a revelation, if you wish. A transfer of primordial knowledge. The probe is only the messenger and, having accomplished its mission, it will continue on to other planets, definitively leaving the confines of your solar system. You'll never see it again. Never ever.

From a bit of experience with AIs and machines, I would suggest the "probe" may give a 'Key' to knowledge.

Now keys open doors of course. But one must first find the doors to open.

That requires intellegent consciousness, probably beyond a programmed AI.

Sure man, I've responded out of your interests

Areas of personal interest (regarding this thread):
1. Cassini Diskus - Decoding? Source/Group ID? (Ha!)
2. ET/UFO/AI/et al.
3. History - Sol. System, Earth, Man, Civilization(s)
4. Current Events

I find some authoritative gesture rather repulsive, it's clearly out of selfish interest.


The Diskus as you might have already know actually came from IRAN yes. the gisel aliens. According to FL posts. Which we have no proof but all theoritical on our part.

It's all a slippery slope so I don't find why some users would hate the way I cook Direne.

Perhaps they just want all the milk Direne could offer without second thought.

Don't get me wrong, I also like the mental gymnastics offered by Direne. What I don't like is the white knights around this thread in particular.

There's no surprises, colonizers instincts always comes barging in.

a reply to: Caecus