Will military and police disobey orders when the time comes?

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


I've served in the Balkans numerous times. You might find it odd that I always enjoyed my time there. One of my arguments (which is moot) is that if Yugoslavia had stayed intact, it would rival if not surpass Germany if admitted to the EU. But alas, it was not meant to be.

I can also tell you (but won't due to security reasons) of missions that I thought were stupid and refused to carry out. You might think that I am a rarity, but please believe me, there are a snip load out there like me as well. I also had Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Muslims working for me. (Radio Mir ring a bell?) and they all got along like family.

By the way, I loved Sarajevo. Even though that city had been blown to snip, the people were great people. Of all ethnicities.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


You obviously understand zip,heres a mind blower for you Serving is the highest act of human love ,when you can die.
I joined to test myself and honor my father's name,
To fight,and guess what I have ZERO signs of dimensia.
To respond to Becod:
Shooting since I was a kid Dad was a light Col in the USAF,yeah I can do as described.A Sergeant was in my platoon in Camp Stanley(Cav Blues)Korea who was an expert stalker he got it from a Recondo vet when he was a kid.
Trail clearing ambushing ,glorious old school stuff.But back then scouts aren't supposed to directly engage the enemy.

reply to post by TDawgRex

I can also tell you (but won't due to security reasons) of missions that I thought were stupid and refused to carry out.

Just out of curiosity...what happens than? If you refuse. Isn't that insubordination? Isn't that something they can put you on trial for ?

So you refused to carry out...and than what? They just let you be there...as if it's nothing? If you're telling me that is the case...I find it hard to believe. Who wants soldiers that don't carry out orders ?

Which war would be won if soldiers just picked orders they want to carry out? Maybe I'm missing something here?


As for Yugoslavia....you are right. It could have been...but as you stated...it was not meant to be. It was a communist state and it had to be broken apart...for easier infiltration and management....by "........."

reply to post by cavtrooper7
true but when a T-OP came in to view why waste "the moment of opportunity, where I was it was a dime a dozen if not more the problem was for every one down 20 more took the place of the one, one reason the drug war will not be over for a very long time. it is still going on www.foxnews.com... www.globalsecurity.org... from the link

Operation Blast Furnace

Beginning in July 1986 US troops provided logistical support for Bolivian National Police find-and-destroy operations against coca-processing facilities in the Chapare, Beni and Santa Cruz areas. Six US Blackhawk helicopters and 160 US support personnel under Operation Blast Furnace included aviation and counterinsurgency training, as well as helicopter logistical support. Blast Furnace focused on law enforcement raids against traffickers in villages, which was seen as an attack on peasants. In October 1986, as Blast Furnace was winding down, some 6,000 residents of Santa Ana de Yacuma in Beni expelled 150 American soldiers and Bolivian police officers. The publicity surrounding the action allowed narco-traffickers to flee target areas in advance of Blast Furnace operations. The four-month operation temporarily depressed coca prices, but its effects were short-lived.

did i say this is all in my head?

thus back to the question will US troops fire on US citizens it is what they are told is how they will respond , if it get's really bad, news black out will take place, phones, radios, and TVs confiscated and band, letters will be opened and read , complete cut off of the out side world, not knowing what is going on other than what your Co tells you, a few will slip through the cracks, they always do and the news should spread like wild fire.

reply to post by TDawgRex

I loved Sarajevo

Sarajevo is a wasteland today...it will never recover. Bosnia is split up in to 3 entities...it can never again unite...it's weak...divided. Most notably...ethnic tensions are now higher than they have ever been.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
just two of the places we should take a hard look at when saying the US is ready for a new 1776, to many wanting a new way, not enough to lead it, we do not have Gorge Washington nor Benjamin Franklin's we do have plenty of Paul Revere's saying they are here, but whom will remake the US what it once was, and not be a mess that it would become. Not to mention all the other country's waiting for the day when it does happen , to step in and become the ruler, why we fight it out amongst our selves.

reply to post by bekod


I keep asking the question - but I get no replies.....

Now that it is out in the open about russian troops ( and other foriegn troops) being in the US - does the military that is still in the US have a way to deal with foriegn troops that may be targetting them?

I believe that the obozo administration already has the US invaded.

reply to post by bekod

. Not to mention all the other country's waiting for the day when it does happen

If you ask me...I will get no kick out of any harm coming the the US...as much as I don't support the actions of your establishment...US has been at the forefront of the western civilization we have come to enjoy today...with all it's flaws and glory. If I compare other civilizations...like Chinese, or Russian, or Islamic or African...they are all second to western civ. And I love being a part of it. It let's me speak out...just the way I'm speaking now. It let's me enjoy my envisioned freedom as much as possible. I don't think most countries wish for the collapse of the US...if the US falls...many others will also...I think they just want to see the US spanked like a naughty child

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

I can also tell you (but won't due to security reasons) of missions that I thought were stupid and refused to carry out.

Just out of curiosity...what happens than? If you refuse. Isn't that insubordination? Isn't that something they can put you on trial for ?

So you refused to carry out...and than what? They just let you be there...as if it's nothing? If you're telling me that is the case...I find it hard to believe. Who wants soldiers that don't carry out orders ?

Which war would be won if soldiers just picked orders they want to carry out? Maybe I'm missing something here?

It depends on the order being given. I was what they termed a [Snip] House lawyer. But I was a good one. I actually read the UCMJ, even kept a copy as occasionally I had to recommend it myself on others. I knew and practiced the Code of Conduct. I studied the Law of Land Warfare. And the Geneva and Hague conventions.

Oh...I've been busted quite a few times, but it was when I was younger and over stupidity on my part. That encouraged me to learn the rules and regulations actually.

I've refused and have canceled (because my team wasn’t there to support the mission) plenty of missions that had a high probability of contact (due to our forces) in a permissive (meaning peaceful) environment. Those are the types of missions where you take one step forward and two back.

Being a leader in the military is not about just following orders, but also making the right decision at the time. And most often you don’t have a lot of time to dick around wargaming things. I made plenty of enemies during my time in and outlasted them all. But I also won the respect of many as well.

The most common remark when I retired was “I thought you would be in Leavenworth by now.” (A military prison)


I do realize that the respect I earned from my superiors did keep me out of a lot of trouble and for that, I thank them. Many were good people who made me think, and apparently I made them think as well...they did have my back after all.

reply to post by TDawgRex

I knew an SOA Ranger when he was blitzed once he spoke of El Salvadore and a "No Eyes" job cleaning a base down there to destabilize the Sandis.
He refused ANY psych help and shot hisself 2 years ago.
What he addressed were in fact black so my question is this,How does one weigh legallity to an elite mission? If you sign up it IS like Bourne,you do it or you will burn.
I would also point out however "line dogs" are FIERCELY loyal because they joined mostly for America,which is who would refuse to fire and who they would need the most.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


When SOCOM supports conventional forces, they often have the last say when it comes to a mission that the conventional forces want to do. (If they want the support that is, they don't always take it). It's a testy enviroment at times. But it goes both ways as well. Sometimes the ODAs/OGAs want conventional support and don't get it.

I'm sorry for your loss, I've seen that as well to many times. All I know is that I sleep well at night.

On a lighter note, my old Top used to say I will never suffer from PTSD because I give it to others.

Putting up with TDawgs $#!t Daily.

reply to post by TDawgRex

Being a leader in the military is not about just following orders, but also making the right decision at the time. And most often you don’t have a lot of time to dick around wargaming things. I made plenty of enemies during my time in and outlasted them all. But I also won the respect of many as well.

I hear what you're saying...but somehow...it's not getting through my mem-brain. The way I see it...you than depend on the intelligence of your platoon leader or something (sorry I'm not familiar with the military jargon)...in essence a leader of your unit. If he says go...all you grunts go.

When I posted my position...I was referring to those low level military personnel. Not sargents, corporals or any of the commanding officers. I'm talking about the majority...the privates (am not sure what's the word...)...you know what I mean. Those that enforce that which is ordered.

I don't doubt that officers sometimes refuse to comply. And in the end...if your platoon leader is a crazy nutjob...thirsty for anyone's blood...than those beneath him will follow...even unwillingly.

I'm guessing it was much harder for them to prosecute you than some lowly private refusing to comply. As you said...maybe you were just too well connected...and could afford to refuse.


I think the main point here I'm trying to make...is that the majority will follow orders blindly. Those that don't or sometimes wont...they are in a very small minority and won't make much difference.

I'm somehow thinking...if you can kill some child out there in a desert...and laugh about it...piss on the dead...or whatever...why would you suddenly develop a sense of morality ? If none of your family members are in the Occupy movement...and none of your friends...why would such a person care or have sympathy for that crowd?

Looking at history...if you are right...how come the millions of Nazi foot soldiers didn't refuse to comply to an obvious evil order...orders that commanded murder of thousands and millions of innocents ? You'll probably say they have been brainwashed..or conditioned...but...every military has to do that if it wants to win. We can't have independent thinkers on front lines...you have to have dumb, cannon fodder...unless...you fight a universally just war...and people defend their own...and I mean really defend your own...not pre emptively attacking.

Wars are sometimes unavoidable...but only defensive wars are justifiable...if you'r not at home...defending on your borders...than you are in effect "the other one"...the offender...the attacker.

No earthly force on this planet can stand up to the a full force of the US military...that's a fact...telling me that you are somewhere out there defending your country...form an enemy who would actually never dare to stand up to you...nah...I don't buy it. It's an offensive war...imperialistic and capitalistic, and inherently wrong.

To start with I am a veteran. 13M MLRS Crewmember, aka field artillery. Served for 3 years from 2003 - 2006. I only made it up to E-4 Specialist so I all I have is the perspective of the low ranked troops, but it looks like this thread could use some of that since most of the veterans in the thread seem to all have held high ranking positions. The way I see it is that in a shtf scenario the military will fracture just like the last time we had a civil uprising in the mid 1800's. Some units will stay loyal and the others will disobey.

The biggest problem I see with all the people who say that they'd disobey an order to fire on American civilians is that it becomes increasingly harder to disobey that order the more people in your unit who are going to obey it. If your unit is standing on main street and the order comes down to fire on a group of rioters and most of the unit starts to fire, many of the doubters will start opening fire because of group mentality and not wanting to go against the flow. The one or two people remaining who refuse to follow the order would most likely just end up arrested by his/her unit or just straight up executed for treason.

Another aspect that people are failing to look at is the tactics used by the leadership to get soldiers (and civilians) to hate their enemy. They de-humanize them. If the leadership places its soldiers in areas of the country where they don't currently have family then declares all the rioters/rebels as less than human, the soldiers would have an easier time pulling that trigger. This is how the military ends up with slang like "Charlie" and "Sand N#."

In the end, while American soldiers are trained to be more free thinking than other countries' soldiers they are still trained to follow orders. Let's also not forget that it is easier to follow orders if you aren't as intelligent and in order to become an 11B infantry you only need the bare minimum ASVAB score. I knew a guy in Basic Training who failed the ASVAB 3 times before finally getting in to become an 11B.

This isn't to say that there won't be whole units that will disobey. However I believe that these units will defect because their CO decided that the order given was unlawful and refused to obey it. If the CO decides not to follow orders, he can subsequently order all his troops under him to disregard that order.

This is most likely the reason we have the DHS. Why worry about how our military is trained and will operate in this situation when we've been training a para-military domestic force now for the last 12 years?

reply to post by Krazysh0t


thank you for this perspective.

You've hit a few very good points in my opinion.

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


If a man is that unhinged you frag him or we used to.I wonder how many times they just have orders to observe while the worlds attrocities play before the eyes of our elites? I never question a military decision as I too was but a spec4 scout. Well there was my platoon sergeant who got busted for meth a week after he got back from Desert Storm.I was ready to off him if he failed in the field during the war.The geniuses gave an infantry NCO who served on Brads to join us in a CAB squadron and he was all haywire,he hid our 1st Sgts Kick18 and was apparently doing meth with the commo sergeant during the war.He tried to order me to go across the berm line an dig up a land mine so he could show it to the Col.I asked him to repeat the order he did so.I asked for it in writing he refused and we got into a shouting match and our Lt diffused it( he was a mustang).
I felt the order was dangerous and not in my training and gee,he refused to demonstrate. Man we liked each other SOOOO much,but I am a big goon and he is an addict as far as I know.
Our own platoon sergeant's daughter was dying so he stayed in the rear ,great guy too.A master gunner. It's people like us who tell you "No we won't" and we will fight our own to protect the country
As to the younger fighting force...age and treachery will ALWAYS win here. Have you EVER seen a MACVSOG guy put together booby traps? And YOU KNOW we got them and worse.

I should point out in the oath there is the line of " foreign and domestic" as in

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

to you in service remember it is "of the people for the people and by the people" , if you should think for your self, remember it well, for you few that"will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me" blindly and obediently remember this, there will always be the Constitution of the United States, and the laws governing it, some will say it is "dead", dead to you that say it, and to you the same. For you have forgotten the meaning and reason of it and the life it holds true we to should forget you in the like manner.

I had this thought come up a few times over the last few yrs, I think they will, they will not..

But you know what, I have seen something in a video game that made some what some sense..

Add in a crazy event, add in a teen with a gun and orders to kill, and then you have this..

skip to 14:50



In seeing this I do think Americans will fire on Americans, because well in the end we are all stupid and we take orders from someone higher than us and we don't even consider to think for ourselves.

reply to post by ThichHeaded

Not me, it's far too important NOT to think for myself. Critical thinking is altered by military training to a point that pragmatism is almost a religion.
You must remember if it goes down America will be gone.No media,fast food your possessions all gone, if it happened.You will be homeless or in a gulag like place until you can be disposed of in an orderly fashion under an iron boot.

Ya I basically said the same thing you did... For all intent of purposes that is what they do, strip people of the thought process, that is why it is so easy for them to do the things they do in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan... Nobody ever questions why..

reply to post by Quauhtli


The simplest and most extreme scenario that people could imagine is almost certainly out of the question and it could easily be ridiculed and dismissed; they it would be easy to ridicule and dismiss other variations by associations but some of them might be possible as indicated by the reaction to the Boston Bombing and several other examples including cases where they pepper sprayed people or in one example sent a SWAT team to a Colorado Occupy Protest.

Clearly in some examples they will obey orders and if they get more extreme gradually they will be more likely to obey.

The experiment that were cited in the opening post were referring to the Milgram "Obedience to Authority" experiments and the so-called "Stanford Prison Experiment," by Philip Zimbardo. They call this a prison experiment but it wasn't the way most prison researchers study things since they don't involve real inmates and everything was faked. However this was funded by the Office of Navel Research and it simulates boot camp and other obedience to authority experiments. Professor Alfred McCoy speculated about the possibility that the Milgram experiments were sponsored by the CIA and makes a good case. He associates it with Milgram's teacher from the 50's Irving Janis and Zimbardo was his classmate. There were many more experiments along these lines and they have learned more than the public is led to believe but a lot of it has been reported in lower profile or deceptive manners.

Furthermore this also took place before the so-called "Spock Generation" was very old or learned less authoritarian teaching methods so the results today would be very different, possibly depending on where people li8ve and how authoritarian they have been brought up. Conservatives haven't adopted more open educating methods and might be more likely to obey orders. I went into this more in a couple past posts about Philip Zimbardo, Lucifer Effect, Stanford Prison Experiment and Corruption or Bias in the American Psychological Association.

Something odd is going on with the Snowden disclosure which aren't new at all; they replicate the ECHELON program which was exposed decades ago and reported on 60 Minutes in 2000. This led me to believe that the coverage around this is seriously flawed and one possible reason is that they're inciting a reform movement and putting people in place to influence it; as explained in Is Prism ECHELON by another name? with Roswell technology?

You're claim that the experiments cited in the opening post are flawed is partially right; perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they're incomplete and that a more accurate assessment would benefit from many other experiments, some of which have already been done and the government knows it as do a small percentage of the public that reads up on this.

It would take too much time to explain all the back up but I suspect that we're going to see a growing reform movement and there will be more examples of oppression in the most authoritarian parts of the country but many people will be shocked by them once again and there will be some reform but many of the people involved in the reform movement might have conflicts of interests and they might only want as much reform as they need to benefit the elites who are already more familiar with the subject. The amount of reform that we wind up with might depend on how well educated a significant percentage of the public is about many issues and if they're active enough to demand real reform. as I attempted to indicate in Coming soon real reform ….. or book burning? Genocide?

Excuse me if I put too many of my own links; but I have been trying to address just this possibility in detail for some time now and the answers aren't simple.