Will military and police disobey orders when the time comes?

reply to post by rickymouse


Are you kidding me? There is nothing more corrupt than a small town cop! It's all about what side of the tracks you live on, and who married your mother's cousin. Justice has very little to do with 'law enforcement' in small towns.

It is very easy to tell if a cop will support the people or the establishment. Ask them what they do. If they respond "I am a police officer (or a Peace Officer)" they will support the people. If they respond " I am a law enforcement officer" they are from the dark side. Walk away. Quickly.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I've trained with plenty of former eastern bloc countries militaries. At first they were always surprised at how much authority NCOs had. Even Specialists (E-4 for those who don't the rank structure) that were in charge of fire teams.

Many of those same armies now emulate the way we do business and allow more free thought.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Guys we are are going to run into a war of opinions and the civilians will insult vets again because that is the ONLY way this works for bad guys.
There is NOTHING in history that covers this Colt made all men equal.We will decide for ourselves what we do,and for the most cases assholes are in the great minority.They may have armored themselves up with laws and ways to enforce their abuse,but in the end it takes a guy with a gun to break it it down.
Thousands are ready NOW!(Calm down by the way,not yet) How about you ask them?

I'll fight on behalf of my vow to the Constitution for the PEOPLE of America,Twinkies and my gun collection.
To preserve these I will do so. I want to see "AvengersII" and to do so Obama better not interrupt my life with an attempt to become a tyrant or I'll bet there are a great deal of combat jocks who could EASILY circumvent presidential security and remove him THE MOMEMT he sets foot outside a bunker,if that were to happen.

Soldiers are robots who are programmed? Please,have a brain.We just learn new things and apply it to survive in a war.
If I was ever told to use them against you...well...I'll bet I could scare or kill ANYONE who tried to give such an order. They were scared of me anyway I joined to fight,no college,money or a life but to learn how to fight and kill my fellow man. Martial arts,been shooting since I was 5 with 22s and a daisy bb gun to a point where "Kentucky Windage" can be applied to any weapon.
I saw how we were going and it is a useful skill. But if I was told when I was in Texas to go pick people up. Not only would I do the opposite and regard the ones giving orders as the enemy.




I would be afraid of the people because I did all of this to defend them,I'm SCARED of them because I know what I can do. Many can do worse and I want them happy...crap it's bad enough when my wife is pissed,but fellow vets,no way in hell

Well said!!! Nucleardiver, as well!!!

I was deployed to New Orleans after Katrina, all soldiers didnt "follow orders blindly".

The Gov. of louisiana and the mayor briefed us, they said, no Sh*t here, " if you see someone stealing, shoot them dead where they stand"

They were rushed from the room quite quickly, as 200 armed men began shouting and clamoring, along the lines of " are you fuc*^ng kidding me?" "I didnt volunteer to shoot Americans mofo" " thats really fuc*^ed up!!" ...etc....

Truth be told, my battle buddies and myself on several occasions, had these conversations many times, "what would you do if..." " would you ever...." "what would it take for you to......"

Anyone ever had to guard a pine forest for a year of 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week, at 80% staff readiness?

Ya not alot of off time, and we get bored, so we talk, at first about home, then about movies, then about our "ol ladies" then about food, and finally about ALL those things we all think but mostly dont ever say.

I served with alot of folks with high level security clearances, we were not just dumb grunts, we were all prime material, we all had college in the tech sector, we all had good jobs dying to higher us out of the gate upon our ETS, we all had to have a secret clearance minimum for the duty we were on.

I only ever met a couple of folks that would ever say they would follow the orders no matter what they were, and all the rest of us would look at each other, and back at them, and just shake our heads.

I am of the opinion that there is little to fear from a large majority of the military, having served myself, been there, talked about it many times, seen my superiors even decent against "questionable" orders, I feel entirely safe from having to worry about that.

The lEOs,......well honestly, I know many, and alot are just good folks, much like soldiers, who simply are those with the "balls" to do terrible deeds, in the name of protecting "the folks" from the evil that exists in some men.

Lets be honest, some folks just dont have it in them, they lack what the military calls "intestinal fortitude" to stand up to the bad guys, Others like myself, and many others, were just born with the ability to do so, and the willingness to take an ass whoopin if required, before we will watch a "bad guy" get away with it.

Most of the LEOs I know, and the Military service members I have met, are these types, they are willing and capable of fighting back against evil, thats why they took the job, they know it must be done, and they know some folks just dont have it in them, so they do the hard job, for crap pay, long hard hours, and little in the rewards department, because it IS necessary.

I fear little about this happening....

I also believe that in the event it takes place, those "bad folks" at the top that arent good people, will be amongst the very first casualties. As when the SHTF for real, "things happen", might as well remove a couple of bad apples for the betterment of the whole while you can.

reply to post by rival


History teaches nothing of that...

What History teaches is that the military respond to indoctrination (defining what is right/acceptable and respect for chain of command), money and self preservation (fear of retaliation, international recognition, failing or future counter revolt), be it for revolution (coup) or to enforce a dictators rule.

It comes with a big assumption that there aren't military already defying orders at the moment. Ever wonder how equipment gets stolen from military bases, except that there was someone on the inside?

Most orders go along with the running current of the most savage interests of mankind. Are they not trained to create damage to whatever is their opposition? The uniform legitimizes their pursuits and structures the violence. So think about the worst mankind can bring, and see, that most people have gotten past the phase of doing good for the sake of doing good, or altruism, by the time they signed up to wear the uniform. They're not going to drop their guns and rescue kittens when their job affords them the spoils of war, which in the extreme hypothetical could be your stuff.

That is not even a state of total political breakdown, but an every day occurrence. The big picture that runs every day, are there military and police that disobey orders, and disregard the rules? Yes. Go search engine "officer arrested" and find some fresh names.

Treason. In an extreme wartime case, they could defect. And get killed for it. That is the consequence of disobedience in military, harsh penalties, unless they were to run away and not get caught*. It would take an incentive for them to disobey orders, they wouldn't do it just because someone said so.

*today's technology to see heat signatures from space in wartime, not likely to get away with it.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

I've trained with plenty of former eastern bloc countries militaries. At first they were always surprised at how much authority NCOs had. Even Specialists (E-4 for those who don't the rank structure) that were in charge of fire teams.

Many of those same armies now emulate the way we do business and allow more free thought.

That is why "our" American military is so strong, we learned this lesson in our countries first war, the revolutionary war, where we targeted the "leaders" first, and left them without any form of leadership.

Every soldier is trained to be in charge of himself if there is no command structure, so he can still function effectively no matter what occurs.

Every American soldier is trained to be able to take charge if necessary, so if the officers, and NCOs all get "got" they can still function and fight effectively.

Really is a quite unique situation in the military structure of the world.

Originally posted by Sandalphon
It comes with a big assumption that there aren't military already defying orders at the moment. Ever wonder how equipment gets stolen from military bases, except that there was someone on the inside?

Most orders go along with the running current of the most savage interests of mankind. Are they not trained to create damage to whatever is their opposition? The uniform legitimizes their pursuits and structures the violence. So think about the worst mankind can bring, and see, that most people have gotten past the phase of doing good for the sake of doing good, or altruism, by the time they signed up to wear the uniform. They're not going to drop their guns and rescue kittens when their job affords them the spoils of war, which in the extreme hypothetical could be your stuff.

That is not even a state of total political breakdown, but an every day occurrence. The big picture that runs every day, are there military and police that disobey orders, and disregard the rules? Yes. Go search engine "officer arrested" and find some fresh names.

Treason. In an extreme wartime case, they could defect. And get killed for it. That is the consequence of disobedience in military, harsh penalties, unless they were to run away and not get caught*. It would take an incentive for them to disobey orders, they wouldn't do it just because someone said so.

*today's technology to see heat signatures from space in wartime, not likely to get away with it.

edit on 30-6-2013 by Sandalphon because: reality just came by for a visit.

A simple piece of plastic, say a trash bag, defeats IR quite nicely.

I know, we used them all the time to get passed it playing OPFOR (opposition force) during training.

Originally posted by Sandalphon
*today's technology to see heat signatures from space in wartime, not likely to get away with it.

I'm pretty positive that not one satillite would be used to track a AWOL Soldier. There are bigger fish in the pond to catch.

I've spent thirty years in the service and quite often disobeyed orders if I felt they were illegal.

Sometimes I was wrong though and recieved UCMJ for my actions.

Let's see....Rank wise I've held
E-1, Private (2x's)
E-2, Private (3x's)
E-3, Private First Class (3x's)
E-4, Specialist and Corporal (2x's)
E-5, Sergeant (2x's)
E-6, Staff Sergeant once
Retired as a E-7, Sergeant First Class.

Yep, as my mood states...I was "That guy"

Probably would have retired as a E-8, First Sergeant if I hadn't been injured which effectively froze my rank so I decided to retire rather than be kicked out on a medical discharge.

Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by Sandalphon
*today's technology to see heat signatures from space in wartime, not likely to get away with it.

I'm pretty positive that not one satillite would be used to track a AWOL Soldier. There are bigger fish in the pond to catch.

I've spent thirty years in the service and quite often disobeyed orders if I felt they were illegal.

Sometimes I was wrong though and recieved UCMJ for my actions.

Let's see....Rank wise I've held
E-1, Private (2x's)
E-2, Private (3x's)
E-3, Private First Class (3x's)
E-4, Specialist and Corporal (2x's)
E-5, Sergeant (2x's)
E-6, Staff Sergeant once
Retired as a E-7, Sergeant First Class.

Yep, as my mood states...I was "That guy"

Probably would have retired as a E-8, First Sergeant if I hadn't been injured which effectively froze my rank so I decided to retire rather than be kicked out on a medical discharge.

LOL!!!!

Promoted more times than the General, high speed low drag if I have ever seen it, you are an inspiration to all, wish we would have had several more like you in my unit.

If nobody rages against the machine, it tends to just walk over everyone.

Folks like yourself help keep the whole thing honest.

I was a tool when I was in, I only "woke up" about a year before I got out at 6 years.

I passed on 2 promotions before leaving, even took a counselling statement the last time because I knew I was leaving, and my buddy really needed the money more than I did.

Really pissed them off when I kept telling them I was going to resign at the 1 year 6 month 3 month 1 month etc.. retention meetings, just to say goodbye when my time was up.

They even stop lossed me for over 6 months at the end, going so far as to threaten me with a failed drug test to try to force my reup.

In the end, they gave me my papers, and I got out as I wanted, clean and clear...

I will never have another job I cant quit when they piss me off, I dont care how good the signing bonus is ( $20k my last time in my case).

reply to post by inverslyproportional


Thank you sir for your post. It is good to know that there are guys like yourself that are and will be keeping the rest of us in check when need be. It is nice to get an insiders view of your perspective, and good I believe for some here who would see those of authority as an enemy as opposed to just someone willing to take on the responsibility of protecting our country.

One of the problems with today is that we do not hold ourselves and our leaders accountable for our actions. If one has a problem with the way the machine is run, he has a responsibility to try and fix it I believe, for himself as well as future generations. There are not enough of us out there who stand up and take the weight of this onto their own shoulders. It is good to see the perspective that you shared and it confirms my thoughts on the whole idea.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


You didn't have to use Mylar? Wow, there goes tankers security at 3am. I wonder what it would be like stalking a fixed position down town?

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

You didn't have to use Mylar? Wow, there goes tankers security at 3am. I wonder what it would be like stalking a fixed position down town?

Well, to be honest, we used the extra thick, "glad" outdoor bags, was what we had in the day room.

It was against the IR scanner on the "tow missile" systems on the hummveys and the battle positions.

Not the greatest, but pretty good. I watched 2 rabbits copulate about 400 meters out one night in the thickest fog I ever saw, was quite impressive really.

Visiblilty was only about 6 feet for a man target, and it didnt even notice at all. Could see anything with heat like it was clear as day

you could tell if someone was wearing their helmet or LBV at range, as the straps would be darker than the rest of their profile, as well as the helmet being all but invisible on their head.

Alot of fun to play with really, was a tramendous learning experience for me.

The warm road also makes a good sneaking spot, as well as concrete walls, all but invisible as long as it is warm all day and they retain enough heat into the night.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


In bad weather you OWN them,same in the woods.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


It ALWAYS angered me when the higher ups gave some Soldier grief because they didn't want to re-up. If they served their time honorably, let them go if that is what they want.

I can see pursuing a good Soldier, but at some point you have to let them go. I always encouraged the good ones to go Guard or Reserves, that way they could keep their options open, their skills sharp and make a bit spending money. Not all took it, but some did.

One guy I found that was really amusing was always saying he was getting out and becoming a [Snip] dealer and was constantly saying FTA. Three years later, he shows up wearing a Ranger Tab and going through SFAS. I had to laugh when I saw him. He was a good troop, he just had a attitude problem that needed adjusting.

As do too many.

Originally posted by Quauhtli
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

Thank you sir for your post. It is good to know that there are guys like yourself that are and will be keeping the rest of us in check when need be. It is nice to get an insiders view of your perspective, and good I believe for some here who would see those of authority as an enemy as opposed to just someone willing to take on the responsibility of protecting our country.

One of the problems with today is that we do not hold ourselves and our leaders accountable for our actions. If one has a problem with the way the machine is run, he has a responsibility to try and fix it I believe, for himself as well as future generations. There are not enough of us out there who stand up and take the weight of this onto their own shoulders. It is good to see the perspective that you shared and it confirms my thoughts on the whole idea.

I have my moments of "raging against the machine" on these boards, but also know and recognize the need for, and the use of force as a tool against the "bad guys".

I just try to hold those with "authority" to account for their misdeeds, but dint skimp on giving boons when earned.

For instance, I just moved to Wichita Falls Texas, every year on the 4th of July, there is a fireworks issue because of the dryness, some folks like to "protest" by shooting bottle rockets at the local PD, which is then inclined to attire themselves in riot gear, for their protection, as they attempt to disperse the miscreants, that dont seem to care if they burn down the whole neighborhood as long as they get to shoot fireworks off.

I have talked to and plan on, bringing a couple coolers full of ice cold water for the LEOs, who have been very vocal in their thanks for my offer of refreshments.

I just appreciate them not letting these folks burn down the whole area with fireworks. Yes I love them myself, but also recognize that at times it is a safety issue,and as such, my personal "enjoyment" is not more important than the overall safety of those around me.

All things in balance, I can still enjoy myself, just not at the expense of everyone else.

Thanks for the words, but I dont think I should get praise for speaking what should be common sense, it isnt like I solved any actual problems, I just said what everyone is already thinking.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

It ALWAYS angered me when the higher ups gave some Soldier grief because they didn't want to re-up. If they served their time honorably, let them go if that is what they want.

I can see pursuing a good Soldier, but at some point you have to let them go. I always encouraged the good ones to go Guard or Reserves, that way they could keep their options open, their skills sharp and make a bit spending money. Not all took it, but some did.

One guy I found that was really amusing was always saying he was getting out and becoming a [Snip] dealer and was constantly saying FTA. Three years later, he shows up wearing a Ranger Tab and going through SFAS. I had to laugh when I saw him. He was a good troop, he just had a attitude problem that needed adjusting.

I was a drug dealer in my youth, I respected NO authority but what brought me that which i desired.

The ARMY honestly turned me into the man I am today, an honorable hard working productive member of society, with respect* honor* integrity* and the personal courage* to do what is right because it is the right thing to do.

I attribute all of the respect that everyone who knows me ( honestly nobody who knows me would tell you you I am not the man most wish to be) gives me to the ARMY, they "took a (ignorant) boy and made a man". They taught me what my absent father should have about life and the world, as well as the role of being a strong, hardworking, and productive member of society.

All it took was the quite simple act of pulling my head out of my ass so my brain could get the air required for proper functionality. Seems so simple looking back, I dont know how I missed it honestly, seems almost like it should have been my default behavioral setting.

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

I remember a few years back where a whole NG unit refused to pick up arms in a war game where they where to told to fight against the Citizens www.abovetopsecret.com... good for them sadly not all are like them

I remember that thread from a couple years ago. It was pretty much declared bogus BS. Especially the part where the BN CDR tossed the soldier in the county jail while awaiting UCMJ charges. And the OP eventually back off on the claim.

As for this OP, we have people rioting when the power goes out for a few hours, when teams win sports championships.

Like i said earlier "when the time comes" i'll be more concerned about defending myself from fellow citizens, than worrying about LEO's and the military. I also have no doubt that LEO's and military will shoot citizens if there is a break down in social order.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

It ALWAYS angered me when the higher ups gave some Soldier grief because they didn't want to re-up. If they served their time honorably, let them go if that is what they want.

I can see pursuing a good Soldier, but at some point you have to let them go. I always encouraged the good ones to go Guard or Reserves, that way they could keep their options open, their skills sharp and make a bit spending money. Not all took it, but some did.

That used to tick me off to no end. I lost track how many times i was chewed out or "called onto the carpet". If the troop didn't want to stay in, fine. I'd give them all the information both pro and con and let them decide. The higher ups hated it because it looked "bad" on their command retention profile if the troop got out.

I'm guessing...if SHTF....first order of busyness...proclaim all protesters drugged up hippies or communists. That way, an average Joe military can have his peace of mind while unleashing hell...

Seriously...I don't hope for much from the military...not collectively anyway. Some individuals will resist, but most will blindly follow orders. They've been conditioned to follow orders. It's not really their choice. Military does not like to give choices...it would not work. All the MSM needs to do is explain how patriotic it is...people eat that sh-it up with a spoon...